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Mueller investigation

Like the entrapment people such as Flynn fell prey to. Indicted (which really doesn't mean much - ham sandwiches can be indicted, as the saying goes) because he couldn't recall precisly the unfolding of events and exact words used during a couple of phone calls. Technically classiified as "lying to the FBI". That sort of entrapment. Perhaps there's a more appropiate term?

I think actual 'entrapment' requires tricking someone into commission of a crime.
If you ask a straightforward question ("Where were you on the dark and stormy night?") and they answer it in a way that's not consistent with reality, it's not a trick.
It would be different if Mueller had muttered into the mike, "A colluder says what..."

But I don't think 'giving them rope to hang themselves with' quite counts as 'entrapment.'

They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.
A good lawyer never​ asks a question that they don't know the answer to. Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.
 
Funny, I always thought investigations like this were fact-finding, not exercises in dotting and crossing. What you post seems like entrapment more than investigatory.

It also appears you're satisfied that there is no collusion and the focus is primarily obstruction of justice?

You're complaining about your own characterization of calling investigative activities as "dotting i's and crossing t's. My advise would be to NOT say things that you find stupid after the fact.
No, I was using language that others on this forum used in their apologies for Mueller not bringing a case which, according to some here, is pretty much a slam dunk.
We are finding out things as they come out slowly. We are now learning the significance of the Stone - Assange - Russia connection.
 
Like the entrapment people such as Flynn fell prey to. Indicted (which really doesn't mean much - ham sandwiches can be indicted, as the saying goes) because he couldn't recall precisly the unfolding of events and exact words used during a couple of phone calls. Technically classiified as "lying to the FBI". That sort of entrapment. Perhaps there's a more appropiate term?

I think actual 'entrapment' requires tricking someone into commission of a crime.
If you ask a straightforward question ("Where were you on the dark and stormy night?") and they answer it in a way that's not consistent with reality, it's not a trick.
It would be different if Mueller had muttered into the mike, "A colluder says what..."

But I don't think 'giving them rope to hang themselves with' quite counts as 'entrapment.'

They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.

so the requirement to make a plea in court is "entrapment" to you? You must really hate America and our Constitution.

You would be happier just being arrested for something that no one even asked you about, versus the "entrapment" of asking you what you think about so-in-so saying you are a rapist or whatever?
 
They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip-up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.
A good lawyer never asks a question that they don't know the answer to. Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.
We're not talking about diposing Flynn, we're discussing what he was investigated for and charged with.

First, other than the lying to the FBI charge, I don't know of, nor have I found any other charges. If there are that you know of, I'd appreciate a link.

The investigators had nothing on Flynn because he hadn't done anything criminal and they needed something to show so they entrapped him on lying. You tell me, why would an investigator ask him about conversations they had tapes of that contained perfectly reasonable and legal conversations if not to catch him in a lie?
 
First, I was responding to this
Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.

Second, you're saying since Flynn agreed to plead guilty to the least significant charge they dropped the worst charges? Isn't that a bit backward? Also, what were the other charges they dropped?
 
They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip-up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.
A good lawyer never asks a question that they don't know the answer to. Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.
We're not talking about diposing Flynn, we're discussing what he was investigated for and charged with.

In the context of the entire Mueller investigation, yes.

First, other than the lying to the FBI charge, I don't know of, nor have I found any other charges. If there are that you know of, I'd appreciate a link.

You don't know of them because you're not privy to the details of the investigation. The FBI is not required to release all their information to you, or put it in a handy link for you to read at your leisure.

The investigators had nothing on Flynn because he hadn't done anything criminal and they needed something to show so they entrapped him on lying. You tell me, why would an investigator ask him about conversations they had tapes of that contained perfectly reasonable and legal conversations if not to catch him in a lie?

So you don't know of any charges because you don't have a link, but are nonetheless able to claim they had nothing on him? If he'd done nothing, then why lie, and subsequently cop a plea? If they really had nothing, Flynn could easily have told Mueller to pound sand. He knuckled under. Take a wild guess as to why he'd do that...
 
They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.

so the requirement to make a plea in court is "entrapment" to you?
You've got the cart before the horse there, bud.
 
So you don't know of any charges because you don't have a link, but are nonetheless able to claim they had nothing on him? If he'd done nothing, then why lie, and subsequently cop a plea? If they really had nothing, Flynn could easily have told Mueller to pound sand. He knuckled under. Take a wild guess as to why he'd do that...
Perhaps his memory wasn't perfect, and so technically, he lied. And that's why he took a deal. It's pretty obvious that he hasn't given anything to Mueller to use against Trump because Trump is not a target.
 
Okay, so we've got, because Mueller hasn't indicted Trump, there is nothing to see here. And the actually people Mueller has indicted were bamboozled by Mueller into committing a crime of lying to the FBI.
First, I was responding to this
Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.

Second, you're saying since Flynn agreed to plead guilty to the least significant charge they dropped the worst charges? Isn't that a bit backward? Also, what were the other charges they dropped?
You apparently don't understand how big investigations like this happen.
 
So you don't know of any charges because you don't have a link, but are nonetheless able to claim they had nothing on him? If he'd done nothing, then why lie, and subsequently cop a plea? If they really had nothing, Flynn could easily have told Mueller to pound sand. He knuckled under. Take a wild guess as to why he'd do that...
Perhaps his memory wasn't perfect....


Or you don't know what you're talking about.
 
First, I was responding to this
Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.
Yeah, I figured that.
'Facing' crimes =/= 'charged with' crimes.
They showed Flynn, not the public, what crimes they knew about, he chose a plea deal.
Second, you're saying since Flynn agreed to plead guilty to the least significant charge they dropped the worst charges? Isn't that a bit backward?
Why would that be backwards? That's what pleas DO.
It's a Monty Hall thing.
Behind one door is a 30 year conviction for being a doofus, and behind the other is a 5 year conviction for being a jerk.
You can take your chances picking door number one, or Monty will sell you the key to the jerk door.
All you have to do is plead guilty to being a jerk, and testify against some of the other players in the studio audience...


Also, what were the other charges they dropped?
Doesn't matter. They were clearly enough to convince him that cooperation and pleading out were in his best interests.

So, not entrapment.
And not a waste of taxpayers' money.

Which brings up, BTW, are YOU a taxpayer for the US, poster?
 
They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.

so the requirement to make a plea in court is "entrapment" to you?
You've got the cart before the horse there, bud.

What is the cart and what is the horse? That expression means, "you're doing it backwards". Are you trying to say that first comes the plea and then comes the charge? Or, first comes the charge and then comes the investigation? You make no sense. Your idea of how the law works sounds like something out of a cartoon. "I'm sorry Mr. Mayor, but the Joker has to go free. We already know he robbed the bank because of the hidden video, so we can't ask him about it. since he won't get a fair trial without the opportunity to address the evidence, as required by law, we will have to let him go".

The whole idea that one can even consider that asking a question about a person's activities is entrapment because they may want to cover up something they have done, but is not entrapment if you didn't already know the correct answer to the question, is ludicrous.

Such a target of an investigation is free to exercise their 5th amendment rights.

Speaking of the 5th... What, in your imagination, is the purpose of the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution? Does it have a use and if so, what is that use and how does it apply to a citizen being questioned by an investigative entity? Now how does that jibe with your idea that questions can possibly be any kind of entrapment, in any situation at all?

You keep using that word incorrectly.. entrapment. As explained to you already, entrapment requires an elaborate scheme to trick a law abiding person into committing a crime that you specifically setup to catch them doing.... someone used the perfect example of leaving a bag of money in the street and then arresting the first random person that walks by that touches it for theft. There is no great mystery.

I think the word you are searching for to accurately describe your objection is "incrimination". Not "entrapment". Asking someone if they murdered the postman is not entrapment, it is baiting them to incriminate themselves. NOW go look up the 5th Amendment.

It is easy to see why a Trumpette would not want to use the correct word... incriminate. Certainly you would be concerned about a criminal you want to be left alone incriminating themselves by standing trial (or being interviewed in a pre-trial meeting) where their attempts to cover up their crimes would itself be a crime.
 
Update:

WASHINGTON — Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team of prosecutors has informed President Trump’s attorneys that the president is not currently considered a criminal target in the Russia investigation, according to a person familiar with the conversation.

The person, who was not authorized to speak publicly about private conversations and spoke on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press on Wednesday that the president is considered a subject of Mueller’s probe — not a target. A subject is typically someone whose conduct is of interest to investigators but prosecutors are not certain they’ve gathered enough evidence to bring charges.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/mueller-says-trump-not-criminal-target-currently/

I guess Mueller doesn't have that many i's to dot and t's to cross afterall.

Lots of taxpayer money being wasted.

It's obvious Mueller is holding back and not charging everything he can--leaving open the possibility of state charges if His Flatulence pardons.
 
Contrary to what you see on TV, there's no rule against tricking someone who you already have some evidence against to incriminate himself. This is simply gathering more evidence.

Entrapment would be putting a bag of money on the street, pointing a camera at it, and arresting anyone who picked it up. That is, an otherwise law abiding person chosen at random and put in an unusual situation which they might respond to incorrectly and thus bring incrimination on themselves.

Yeah, lets look at a real world example of entrapment by the police:

Consider the tactic of leaving bait cars to be stolen. On the surface this looks like a perfectly legitimate tactic, a law abiding person isn't going to steal a car just because it's left unlocked.

However, the police sometimes went too far. They would do things like have the driver and passenger stage an argument and bail out--leaving the car in the road and sometimes even running.

Now, in addition to car thieves you have good samaritans who are simply moving the car out of the way, not stealing it. Entrapment.
 
Mueller is working on a report that will address Trump's behavior regarding obstruction of justice. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement there, because Trump himself has said a lot in public about his motives. For example, he claimed that he was thinking of the Russia investigation when he fired Comey, and then he told Russian diplomats that what he did would make the investigation go away.

One of the reasons that Trump himself may not be charged by Mueller is that it is still controversial whether a sitting president can be charged. The only remedy for presidential abuse of power is Congress, not the court system. However, people who are the "subject" of an investigation can become targets at any time. Saying that Trump is not currently a target is not definitive. Mueller's investigation is not designed to target Trump per se, but to target those who may have violated laws such as obstruction of justice and criminal conspiracy. He is doing exactly what he was tasked to do.
 
Mueller is working on a report that will address Trump's behavior regarding obstruction of justice. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement there, because Trump himself has said a lot in public about his motives. For example, he claimed that he was thinking of the Russia investigation when he fired Comey, and then he told Russian diplomats that what he did would make the investigation go away.

One of the reasons that Trump himself may not be charged by Mueller is that it is still controversial whether a sitting president can be charged. The only remedy for presidential abuse of power is Congress, not the court system. However, people who are the "subject" of an investigation can become targets at any time. Saying that Trump is not currently a target is not definitive. Mueller's investigation is not designed to target Trump per se, but to target those who may have violated laws such as obstruction of justice and criminal conspiracy. He is doing exactly what he was tasked to do.

^ This. Of course, my personal hope is that the question is resolved by determining that yes, we can indict a sitting president for certain crimes and here's the evidence he's guilty of those crimes.

Either way, there are numerous brilliant legal minds already gathering their thoughts on this and I for one can't wait to hear whatever debate comes out of it all. I imagine Mueller already has stacks of arguments that might be used. The solution may already be worked out and waiting to be tried.

I just want to speed up time, get rid of the orange hobgoblin and his band of idiots once and for all, and settle in to watch the movie about the whole thing. :)
 
Mueller is working on a report that will address Trump's behavior regarding obstruction of justice. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement there, because Trump himself has said a lot in public about his motives. For example, he claimed that he was thinking of the Russia investigation when he fired Comey, and then he told Russian diplomats that what he did would make the investigation go away.

One of the reasons that Trump himself may not be charged by Mueller is that it is still controversial whether a sitting president can be charged. The only remedy for presidential abuse of power is Congress, not the court system. However, people who are the "subject" of an investigation can become targets at any time. Saying that Trump is not currently a target is not definitive. Mueller's investigation is not designed to target Trump per se, but to target those who may have violated laws such as obstruction of justice and criminal conspiracy. He is doing exactly what he was tasked to do.

^ This. Of course, my personal hope is that the question is resolved by determining that yes, we can indict a sitting president for certain crimes and here's the evidence he's guilty of those crimes.

Either way, there are numerous brilliant legal minds already gathering their thoughts on this and I for one can't wait to hear whatever debate comes out of it all. I imagine Mueller already has stacks of arguments that might be used. The solution may already be worked out and waiting to be tried.

I just want to speed up time, get rid of the orange hobgoblin and his band of idiots once and for all, and settle in to watch the movie about the whole thing. :)
Yeah, it is too bad Chris Farley is no longer with us for the movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman could have managed as well.
 
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