Mueller investigation

[Elixir]

Mueller is working on a report that will address Trump's behavior regarding obstruction of justice. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement there, because Trump himself has said a lot in public about his motives. For example, he claimed that he was thinking of the Russia investigation when he fired Comey, and then he told Russian diplomats that what he did would make the investigation go away.

One of the reasons that Trump himself may not be charged by Mueller is that it is still controversial whether a sitting president can be charged. The only remedy for presidential abuse of power is Congress, not the court system. However, people who are the "subject" of an investigation can become targets at any time. Saying that Trump is not currently a target is not definitive. Mueller's investigation is not designed to target Trump per se, but to target those who may have violated laws such as obstruction of justice and criminal conspiracy. He is doing exactly what he was tasked to do.

^ This. Of course, my personal hope is that the question is resolved by determining that yes, we can indict a sitting president for certain crimes and here's the evidence he's guilty of those crimes.

Either way, there are numerous brilliant legal minds already gathering their thoughts on this and I for one can't wait to hear whatever debate comes out of it all. I imagine Mueller already has stacks of arguments that might be used. The solution may already be worked out and waiting to be tried.

I just want to speed up time, get rid of the orange hobgoblin and his band of idiots once and for all, and settle in to watch the movie about the whole thing.

When I heard "subject, not target" I immediately thought that was very smart. Why get into a needless legal quagmire over whether a sitting president can be indicted, when the needed course of action is in no way effected by whether he can or can't be indicted? My fear though, is that Mueller will submit a report that would be damning to any other president, and the republican congress will decide that some mild statement of censure is all that is warranted. With some luck, Mueller might be able to hold out until after November... in which case it is not so certain that the kleptocrats will be able to get away with that.

 

[Opoponax]

I just want to speed up time, get rid of the orange hobgoblin and his band of idiots once and for all, and settle in to watch the movie about the whole thing.

Movies. Hell, there'll be series on Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon too.

The Stormy Daniels fiasco would've made for a 2+ hour movie by itself.

The Mueller investigation is at least a five season series.

Opening Scene: Trump sits in a large auditorium at a beauty pageant in Moscow. Three beautiful women are with him. From the back of the auditorium, an unidentified security agent in a tailored suit watches Trump. The agent, keeping his eyes on Trump, raises his walkie talking and begins speaking in Russian...

 

[jab]

They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.

A good lawyer never​ asks a question that they don't know the answer to. Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.

"A good lawyer never. . ,": I think you are confusing courtroom behaviour with investigative behaviour.

 

[poster]

Mueller is working on a report that will address Trump's behavior regarding obstruction of justice. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement there, because Trump himself has said a lot in public about his motives. For example, he claimed that he was thinking of the Russia investigation when he fired Comey, and then he told Russian diplomats that what he did would make the investigation go away.

One of the reasons that Trump himself may not be charged by Mueller is that it is still controversial whether a sitting president can be charged. The only remedy for presidential abuse of power is Congress, not the court system. However, people who are the "subject" of an investigation can become targets at any time. Saying that Trump is not currently a target is not definitive. Mueller's investigation is not designed to target Trump per se, but to target those who may have violated laws such as obstruction of justice and criminal conspiracy. He is doing exactly what he was tasked to do.

That's right, begin the pivot from Russian collusion to obstruction of justice exclusivly. You lot make a jackass like Trump look good. Embarrassing!

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They knew the answers to their questions before they asked them because they were monitoring his phone, so why ask if you're not looking for a slip up or, as they put it, a lie. That's trickery, or as they say in legal terms, entrapment.

A good lawyer never​ asks a question that they don't know the answer to. Additionally, Flynn, Gates, Manafort were/are facing many many more crimes that lying to the FBI.

"A good lawyer never. . ,": I think you are confusing courtroom behaviour with investigative behaviour.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous.

 

[Rhea]

I thought entrapment was when you urge someone to commit a crime by pretending you aren’t law enforcement - by pretending you are an accomplice.

I don’t think it has anything to do with getting people to confess to a crime they committed of their own volition.

 

[poster]

I thought entrapment was when you urge someone to commit a crime by pretending you aren’t law enforcement - by pretending you are an accomplice.

I don’t think it has anything to do with getting people to confess to a crime they committed of their own volition.

You don't seem to understand. There was no crime to confess to until after he was interrogated.

It went something like this:

Interrogator: General Flynn, what times were the phone calls to so-n-so?
Flynn: 9am and 2;15pm
Interrogator: Wrong, they were 9:09am and 2:17pm. You are being charged for lying to the FBI​

That's the kind of shit they pull when they've got nothing.

 

[Angry Floof]

I thought entrapment was when you urge someone to commit a crime by pretending you aren’t law enforcement - by pretending you are an accomplice.

I don’t think it has anything to do with getting people to confess to a crime they committed of their own volition.

You don't seem to understand. There was no crime to confess to until after he was interrogated.

It went something like this:

Interrogator: General Flynn, what times were the phone calls to so-n-so?
Flynn: 9am and 2;15pm
Interrogator: Wrong, they were 9:09am and 2:17pm. You are being charged for lying to the FBI​

That's the kind of shit they pull when they've got nothing.

That's a stupid example that would never happen.

It's more likely something like:

Mr. Flynn, have you had any contacts with any Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign?

 

[poster]

I thought entrapment was when you urge someone to commit a crime by pretending you aren’t law enforcement - by pretending you are an accomplice.

I don’t think it has anything to do with getting people to confess to a crime they committed of their own volition.

You don't seem to understand. There was no crime to confess to until after he was interrogated.

It went something like this:

Interrogator: General Flynn, what times were the phone calls to so-n-so?
Flynn: 9am and 2;15pm
Interrogator: Wrong, they were 9:09am and 2:17pm. You are being charged for lying to the FBI​

That's the kind of shit they pull when they've got nothing.

That's a stupid example that would never happen.

It's more likely something like:

Mr. Flynn, have you had any contacts with any Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign?

Flynn was questioned about two phone calls. Calls that were recorded by the FBI. He did and said nothing illegal or inappropriate considering his position during the calls. That's why he was charged for lying.

 

[Angry Floof]

That's a stupid example that would never happen.

It's more likely something like:

Mr. Flynn, have you had any contacts with any Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign?

Flynn was questioned about two phone calls. Calls that were recorded by the FBI. He did and said nothing illegal or inappropriate considering his position during the calls. That's why he was charged for lying.

Whatever. Your example is still dumb as hell. He lied to the FBI about something a lot more important than 9 minutes off of a time.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It went something like this:

It went nothing like that. You know, there’s this new fangled doohickey called the “internet” that you can use to find out exactly what it went like.

 

[poster]

That's a stupid example that would never happen.

It's more likely something like:

Mr. Flynn, have you had any contacts with any Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign?

Flynn was questioned about two phone calls. Calls that were recorded by the FBI. He did and said nothing illegal or inappropriate considering his position during the calls. That's why he was charged for lying.

Whatever. Your example is still dumb as hell. He lied to the FBI about something a lot more important than 9 minutes off of a time.

I said it went something like that. The times of the calls were an issue and part of the reason he was charged. His memory was also vague about the exact wording during the calls.

 

[Angry Floof]

It went something like this:

It went nothing like that. You know, there’s this new fangled doohickey called the “internet” that you can use to find out exactly what it went like.

That's some pretty serious shit to lie about. If Mueller was just out to get an innocent man, he must have peed his pants with joy that the innocent man lied about something so serious.

- - - Updated - - -

Whatever. Your example is still dumb as hell. He lied to the FBI about something a lot more important than 9 minutes off of a time.

I said it went something like that. The times of the calls were an issue and part of the reason he was charged. His memory was also vague about the exact wording during the calls.

No, not anything like that actually. Read the doc at the link Koyaanisqatsi posted.

 

[poster]

I've read it. Those prosecutors know how to make shit sound pretty bad.

Why would he knowingly lie when he did nothing wrong or illegal? I'd like to read an actual transcript of the interview.

 

[Artemus]

That's right, begin the pivot from Russian collusion to obstruction of justice exclusivly. You lot make a jackass like Trump look good. Embarrassing!

But it is all about Russian collusion, between the Trump campaign and Russia. It only became about Trump himself when he allegedly attempted to obstruct justice by trying to intimidate Comey into letting Flynn off and then firing him to, as he said in the Lester Holt interview and told real, live, actual Russians, end the Russian investigation. There are of course other little incidents such as dictating a false statement about the purpose of the Trump tower meeting.

You don't seem to understand why obstruction of justice is considered such a serious crime. Here is a statement by a federal criminal defense attorney that explains it well:

Federal charges involving the obstruction of justice should be taken extremely seriously. As it "seriously undermine respect for the system of justice," (United States v. Blackwell, 459 F.3d 739, 774 (6th Cir. 2006)) and "strikes at the heart of the integrity" of the courts, judges take considerable offense to such conduct and commonly dole out harsh punishments upon conviction. United States v. Kiszewski, 877 F.2d 210, 214 (2d Cir. 1989).

Preventing an elected official from using his/her power and influence to protect corrupt family and friends from prosecution is one of the mechanisms that prevents us from descending into fascism. That is why obstruction of justice charges were ultimately Nixon's downfall. It is laughable (and dangerous) to believe that only being investigated for obstruction of justice "makes Trump look good."

 

[poster]

I fully understand how serious obstruction of justice is. When Trump asked or suggested (or however he put it) to Comey to drop the collusion stuff, perhaps that's because Trump knew it was bogus and a waste of money. Now, that makes Trump a hypocrite because of the birther issue, however, the FBI and the rest of the justice department weren't investigating the birther issue.

I get it - make life for Trump and his administration hard, but the line should be drawn at civil rights which the intelligence agencies have been trampling on, and as is being revealed through all this, it looks as though it's been abused for quite some time, and very often by people in the Obama administration.

That's really fucked up. I realize many of you here don't want to hear that because you're still angry about the election and can't see straight, but seriously people, wake up and smell the stench. It's pretty bad from both sides!

 

[Artemus]

I fully understand how serious obstruction of justice is. When Trump asked or suggested (or however he put it) to Comey to drop the collusion stuff, perhaps that's because Trump knew it was bogus and a waste of money.

No, by suggesting that it was okay for Trump to lean on Comey to drop the charges because he had supposedly predetermined that the charges were bogus demonstrates that you have no idea how serious a crime obstruction of justice is. That is exactly the type of thing that the laws are designed to prevent.

...but the line should be drawn at civil rights which the intelligence agencies have been trampling on, and as is being revealed through all this, it looks as though it's been abused for quite some time, and very often by people in the Obama administration.

Conspiracy theories from fringe sites are not helpful.

 

[Patooka]

That's really fucked up. I realize many of you here don't want to hear that because you're still angry about the election and can't see straight, but seriously people, wake up and smell the stench. It's pretty bad from both sides!

One of the things Trump will leave behind as his legacy will be what an utterly banal bullshit argument "From both sides" truly is. No, the Democrats are not this fucking bad and ethically bankrupt. I agree that they are not perfect, I just don't understand why you think that is the exact same thing.

 

[Rhea]

I fully understand how serious obstruction of justice is. When Trump asked or suggested (or however he put it) to Comey to drop the collusion stuff, perhaps that's because Trump knew it was bogus and a waste of money. Now, that makes Trump a hypocrite because of the birther issue, however, the FBI and the rest of the justice department weren't investigating the birther issue.

Wow, the way you wind yourself up in knots to avoid the obvious conclusions must make you an epic Twister(tm) player!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's really fucked up. I realize many of you here don't want to hear that because you're still angry about the election and can't see straight, but seriously people, wake up and smell the stench. It's pretty bad from both sides!

One of the things Trump will leave behind as his legacy will be what an utterly banal bullshit argument "From both sides" truly is. No, the Democrats are not this fucking bad and ethically bankrupt. I agree that they are not perfect, I just don't understand why you think that is the exact same thing.

This disparity is called by many (only me), The Moore Coulter Fallacy.

 

[Ford]

That's really fucked up. I realize many of you here don't want to hear that because you're still angry about the election and can't see straight, but seriously people, wake up and smell the stench. It's pretty bad from both sides!

I'm sure you're aware that Trump is still holding campaign rallies where he rails against Hillary Clinton, right?

He's still angry about the election even though he won.

By the way, Hillary was investigated almost continuously from the day after Benghazi until the day after the 2016 election. Four years and change. The results? A nothing burger.

Trump, on the other hand, has been under investigation for about 1/3 of that time, and is (along with his supporters) whining that it has dragged on for far too long.

Both sides, my ass.