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Mueller investigation

Right, but to grant a pardon, there has to be a crime committed and to accept a pardon is an admission of guilt. Even if Trump had said something like, “Don’t worry about anything that happens, I’ll just pardon you,” for that to be an effective incentive for them it would require that Trump—and/or Pence—is still in a position to pardon them.

But the reason to give such assurance is arising out of the fact that Trump’s presidency is in question. Iow, Dowd would essentially be saying to Manafort etal not to worry about lying to Mueller, because if anything happens you’ll get a pardon. But the thing that would happen is Trump being indicted/impeached and his powers of pardoning—along with everything else—being taken away. Right? Again, that’s a general question for the thread, as I don’t know the legal breakdown on this point.

Plus there’s the question of whether or not removal from office (however it may happen) would not also carry with it a revocation of any such pardons Trump may have issued prior to being removed.

Any lawyers in da house?
I don't think lawyers could say seeing that a lot of this is untouched legal territory.

Yeah. There's no precedent for it. Same with the Emoluments Clause.

It's what makes Trump the most tremendous POTUS ever. We are watching a new field (or at least YUGE growth) of constitutional legal scholarship being created right before our eyes.

No, not really. In regard to violations of the emoluments provisions, we are simply watching right now the failure of Republicans in Congress to act on them.

Assuming the Republic survives, we're gonna see scholars and law schools churning out law review pieces for the next decade about this shit, and every minuscule peripheral issue related to it.

Again, it would be more along the lines of one issue, which is: Republican failure to act in a timely manner.

Trump really is causing the advancement of constitutional scholarship.

In the sense of being the first treasonous agent of a foreign power to have been successfully implanted into the WH, I suppose. But that would not be something he accomplished; that would be something that was accomplished for him.
 
I don't think lawyers could say seeing that a lot of this is untouched legal territory.

True. Though there is the fact that Ford granted a blanket pardon to Nixon, but that also required of Nixon to admit guilt by accepting it.

This may be of interest: Gerald R. Ford - 155 - Statement and Responses to Questions From Members of the House Judiciary Committee Concerning the Pardon of Richard Nixon
October 17, 1974
.

Snippets:

The pardon power entrusted to the President under the Constitution of the United States has a long history and rests on precedents going back centuries before our Constitution was drafted and adopted. The power has been used sometimes as Alexander Hamilton saw its purpose: "In seasons of insurrection... when a well-timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquillity of the commonwealth; and which, if suffered to pass unimproved, it may never be possible afterwards to recall."1 Other times it has been applied to one person as "an act of grace... which exempts the individual, on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed."2 When a pardon is granted, it also represents "the determination of the ultimate authority that the public welfare will be better served by inflicting less than what the judgment fixed."3 However, the Constitution does not limit the pardon power to cases of convicted offenders or even indicted offenders.4 Thus, I am firm in my conviction that as President I did have the authority to proclaim a pardon for the former President when I did.

1 The Federalist No. 74, at 79 (Central Law Journal ed. 1914) (A. Hamilton).

2Marshall, C. J. in United States v. Wilson, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 150, 160 (1833).

3Biddle v. Perovich, 247 U.S. 480, 486 (1927).

4 Ex Parte Garland, 4 Wall. 333, 380 (1867); Burdick v. United States, 236 U.S. 79 (1915).
...
General Haig wanted my views on the various courses of action as well as my attitude on the options of resignation. However, he indicated he was not advocating any of the options. I inquired as to what was the President's pardon power, and he answered that it was his understanding from a White House lawyer that a President did have the authority to grant a pardon even before any criminal action had been taken against an individual, but, obviously, he was in no position to have any opinion on a matter of law.
...
The second question in the resolution asks whether Alexander Haig referred to or discussed a pardon with Richard M. Nixon or his representatives at any time during the week of August 4, 1974, or any subsequent time. My answer to that question is: "not to my knowledge." If any such discussions did occur, they could not have been a factor in my decision to grant the pardon when I did because I was not aware of them.

Questions three and four of H. Res. 1367 deal with the first and all subsequent references to, or discussions of, a pardon for Richard M. Nixon, with him or any of his representatives or aides. I have already described at length what discussions took place on August 1 and 2, 1974, and how these discussions brought no recommendations or commitments whatsoever on my part. These were the only discussions related to questions three and four before I became President, but question four relates also to subsequent discussions.

At no time after I became President on August 9, 1974, was the subject of a pardon for Richard M. Nixon raised by the former President or by anyone representing him. Also, no one on my staff brought up the subject until the day before my first press conference on August 28, 1974. At that time, I was advised that questions on the subject might be raised by media reporters at the press conference.
...
Shortly afterwards I became greatly concerned that if Mr. Nixon's prosecution and trial were prolonged, the passions generated over a long period of time would seriously disrupt the healing of our country from the wounds of the past. I could see that the new Administration could not be effective if it had to operate in the atmosphere of having a former President under prosecution and criminal trial. Each step-along the way, I was deeply concerned, would become a public spectacle and the topic of wide public debate and controversy.

As I have before stated publicly, these concerns led me to ask from my own legal counsel what my full right of pardon was under the Constitution in this situation and from the Special Prosecutor what criminal actions, if any, were likely to be brought against the former President, and how long his prosecution and trial would take.
...
I did consult with my Counsel, Philip Buchen, with Benton Becker, and with my Counsellor, John Marsh, who is also an attorney. Outside of these men, serving at the time on my immediate staff, I consulted with no other attorneys or professors of law for facts or legal authorities bearing on my decision to grant a pardon to the former President.

I can’t find anything (yet) regarding exactly what advice/cosnultation was given to him; merely that he sought the advice of counsel. But of course all of this applies only to the pardoning of a disgraced President who resigned instead of facing charges.

ETA: Still going through the piece above and found this much at least:

CONGRESSMAN DENNIS. Mr. President, I note that on page 10 [page 343] you state that you asked the General as to what the President's pardon power was, and he very properly replied that he had certain information but couldn't give legal opinion.

When, where, and from whom did you ultimately obtain the opinion that you were entitled under the doctrine of Ex Parte Garland and so on, to issue a pardon when there has been no charge or no conviction?

THE PRESIDENT. When I came back to the Oval Office, Mr. Dennis, following the press conference on August 28, where three questions were raised by the news media involving a pardon, I instructed my Counsel, Mr. Buchen, to check in an authoritative way what pardon power a President had. And he, several days later--I don't recall precisely--came back and briefed me on my pardon power as President of the United States.

There is also—throughout the testimony—the sense that any prior discussion of a pardon is considered problematic at the very least. Such as this section:

CONGRESSMAN MANN. Did you ever discuss the pardon with former President Nixon after his resignation and prior to the granting of the pardon?

THE PRESIDENT. Will you repeat that again, please?

CONGRESSMAN MANN. Did you have any personal conversation with former President Nixon concerning the pardon, between his resignation and September 8?

THE PRESIDENT. Absolutely not.

ETAETA: Found Buchen’s correspondence archived at the Ford Library. If you scroll down to “Nixon Pardon” there are a lot of files. If I find anything of interest I’ll post in a separate post.
 
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Well, I found this so far. It’s a memo from Benton Becker, who was evidently tapped to work with Buchen on providing Ford with legal counsel in regard to his pardon powers. That starts on page 5 of the memo (7 of the PDF). I can’t copy and paste anything from it, but it was evidently based on Burdick, Garland, Blackstone’s writings and an opinion from the Attorney General in the “Hugh’s” presidency (with “Hugh’s” struck out and nothing replacing it).

It also includes his meeting with Nixon in San Clemente and how the language and acceptance of a pardon included an admission of guilt, but no real insight into exactly what language from Burdick/Garland etc was provided to Ford or informed his and Buchen’s conclusions regarding presidential pardon authority.

Note that “the Bird” he refers to is a take on Kissinger’s secret service code name (the Eagle).

ETA: Found it, though it’s a collection of xeroxed pages with Becker’s scribbled notations apparently.
 
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CNN has a good description of the interactions between Gates and Mueller that finally led to Gates flipping. Apparently Gates wanted to fight it up until end, but ultimately caved due to the cost and the humiliation a public trial would cause. At least that is what he admitted to his family...I'm sure the fact that he is guilty as hell and would lose the public trial entered into it as well. It's a fascinating read on how Mueller is playing the chess game.

But the most important thing in the article is
CNN said:
Special counsel Robert Mueller's team last year made clear it wanted former Trump campaign deputy Rick Gates' help, not so much against his former business partner Paul Manafort, but with its central mission: investigating the Trump campaign's contact with the Russians.
No witch hunt. The investigation has been about the original goal outlined in its charge the entire time, and everything else has simply been addressing
Rosenstein said:
any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.
I think that this investigation will serve as law-school case studies on how to conduct a special investigation for decades.
 
CNN has a good description of the interactions between Gates and Mueller that finally led to Gates flipping. Apparently Gates wanted to fight it up until end, but ultimately caved due to the cost and the humiliation a public trial would cause. At least that is what he admitted to his family...I'm sure the fact that he is guilty as hell and would lose the public trial entered into it as well. It's a fascinating read on how Mueller is playing the chess game.

But the most important thing in the article is
CNN said:
Special counsel Robert Mueller's team last year made clear it wanted former Trump campaign deputy Rick Gates' help, not so much against his former business partner Paul Manafort, but with its central mission: investigating the Trump campaign's contact with the Russians.
No witch hunt. The investigation has been about the original goal outlined in its charge the entire time, and everything else has simply been addressing
Rosenstein said:
any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.
I think that this investigation will serve as law-school case studies on how to conduct a special investigation for decades.

“Law School”? Law and school are two things that will go the way of the dinosaur, should Trump get his way.
 
The Wall Street Journal says that Mueller is investigating if Trump campaign advisor Roger Stone really did meet with Assange prior to the dump of Podesta's emails as he claimed in an email to Nunberg (and elsewhere), or if he was 'joking" as he later claimed. I'm sure that Mueller already knows, actually, but has to make sure that all the I's are dotted before he can submit his report.

Not surprising news, but it's fascinating to watch these things unfold in real time.

Summary of the article that is not behind a pay-wall here.
 
The Wall Street Journal says that Mueller is investigating if Trump campaign advisor Roger Stone really did meet with Assange prior to the dump of Podesta's emails as he claimed in an email to Nunberg (and elsewhere), or if he was 'joking" as he later claimed. I'm sure that Mueller already knows, actually, but has to make sure that all the I's are dotted before he can submit his report.

Not surprising news, but it's fascinating to watch these things unfold in real time.

Summary of the article that is not behind a pay-wall here.
WSJ is a conservative paper to boot. This would be pretty bad on its own. Completely devastating with everything else we know.
 
WSJ is a conservative paper to boot. This would be pretty bad on its own. Completely devastating with everything else we know.

Nah, what would be devastating would be if he said mean things about Nazis or Putin.
 
The Wall Street Journal says that Mueller is investigating if Trump campaign advisor Roger Stone really did meet with Assange prior to the dump of Podesta's emails as he claimed in an email to Nunberg (and elsewhere), or if he was 'joking" as he later claimed. I'm sure that Mueller already knows, actually, but has to make sure that all the I's are dotted before he can submit his report.

Not surprising news, but it's fascinating to watch these things unfold in real time.

Summary of the article that is not behind a pay-wall here.
WSJ is a conservative paper to boot. This would be pretty bad on its own. Completely devastating with everything else we know.

And now The Wall Street Journal says that Mueller is looking at a private consulting firm and U.A.E. influence on Trump. The Hill once again has a nice non-paywalled summary. They aren't holding back. It does make one wonder how they are getting these
stories, though. Are witnesses talking? Is there a leaker on the Mueller team?
 
Mueller is playing 5d chess because he knows Trumps wants to fire him. So a move here and another here to let people know where this stands, to a point.
 
Mueller is playing 5d chess because he knows Trumps wants to fire him. So a move here and another here to let people know where this stands, to a point.

Yup. Every single so-called "leak" from Mueller's camp is well thought-out and well timed for specific purposes.
 
So maybe we need something like the box scores for the investigation?
Number of convictions for this 'witch hunt,' number of guilty pleas, number of flights to a foreign state with no extradition treaties...
 
... number of flights to a foreign state with no extradition treaties...

wait.. that happened already? Or just predicting a similar future as I am?

I'm pretty sure Snowden has already spoken with Putin about having roommates.
 
So maybe we need something like the box scores for the investigation?
Number of convictions for this 'witch hunt,' number of guilty pleas, number of flights to a foreign state with no extradition treaties...

Yes, similar to the list of administration firings and resignations that Rachel Maddow has to keep expanding with larger and larger boards.

Maybe we could start one here ourselves.
 
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