NASA engineers

[DrZoidberg]

USSR won the space race in every way they attempted. They were the first at everything they tried. The only thing the Russians didn´t attempt, simply because they thought it was a colossal waste of money, was to send a human to the Moon and back. But they did the rest first.

This really isn't true. The US accomplished many things first. Among them the first Solar powered satellite, the first communications satellite, first weather satellite, first solar probe, first object recovered from orbit, first navigation satellite, first geosynchronous orbit, first geostationary orbit, first pilot-controlled spacecraft, first orbital photograph of earth, first reusable spacecraft, first orbital rendezvous, first orbital docking, first mars flyby, first spacecraft to orbit another planet (mars), first spacecraft on solar escape trajectory, first spacecraft to enter asteroid belt and leave the inner solar system, first jupiter flyby, first mercury flyby, and the first gravity slingshot maneuvre.

Many of these were also attempted by the soviets. It requires some very selective vision to think the soviets were first at everything they tried. Although I will agree that nobody 'won' the spacerace.

The first communication satellite that was actually useful was sent by AT&T, a multi-national conglomerate. So giving that one to the Americans is a stretch. The first communication satellite that could send and receive signals was Sputnik. Not USA. That was the last crucial piece of the puzzle that needed to be solved and the Russians were the one´s who did it. The rest is pretty much scraps on the table. Reusable space craft is also cool... but then again... not really. Most of the shuttle need to be replaced each flight. It´s not as simple as just filling it up with gas and they´re off again. Which defeats the point IMHO. Again, USSR didn´t bother because they, correctly, realised it wasn´t worth the effort and money developing one. NASA´s Shuttle is mostly just a colossal waste of money. USSR nabbed all the big ones. Sorry about that.

The fact that most of the useful data we have today comes from NASA is of course due to USSR completely folding, and forcing USSR to mostly focus on commercial space flight, rather than doing research. Leonid Brezhnev, coming to power, and draining resources to have the entire Soviet nation as his personal pleasure palace didn´t help either.

There is a perfectly reasonable explanation to why USSR won the space race at everything they tried. They were better at maths. It´s really as simple as that. The Soviet educational system was just better at producing talented mathematicians. And physics is all about the maths. The Americans didn´t have a chance. But then of course, USSR collapsed and all that mathematical talent moved to the west.

 

[barbos]

Sputnik had simple beep-beep transmitter, it was not a communication satellite.
And Soviet Union did try to go to Moon, but rocket problem prevented them.
Also there was a russian version of Shuttle successfully launched and landed once. Then Soviet Union collapsed.
In the beginning soviets were winning but in the end NASA ended up doing more stuff. And Soviet Union took much more risk early on. If they had not they would probably lose the race.

In my opinion Moon landing was monumental. But considering the fact that SU just had a War and lost 30 mil people, they did pretty good.

 

[dystopian]

The first communication satellite that was actually useful was sent by AT&T, a multi-national conglomerate. So giving that one to the Americans is a stretch.

Adding the "actually useful" bit to it seems like the same sort of thing you're accusing the americans of, with the whole "well we sent the first *monkey* in space!"; fact is SCORE was the first communications satellite. There a couple of other communications satellites launched by the US before telstar too. Plus, it seems as if telstar was entirely developed and built in the US.

The first communication satellite that could send and receive signals was Sputnik. Not USA.

I don't know where you're getting this from. Sputnik wasn't a communications satellite, and it couldn't receive anything. All it could do was repeat a series of pulses for telemetry purposes. It did not have a receiver, and it could not relay communications (which is what makes a satellite, a *communications* satellite)

The rest is pretty much scraps on the table.

Characterizing the list I posted as "scraps" is ridiculous. First orbit around another planet is scraps? First docking procedure is scraps? first to leave the inner solar system is scraps? Don't be fucking ridiculous.

Reusable space craft is also cool... but then again... not really. Most of the shuttle need to be replaced each flight. It´s not as simple as just filling it up with gas and they´re off again. Which defeats the point IMHO. Again, USSR didn´t bother because they, correctly, realised it wasn´t worth the effort and money developing one. NASA´s Shuttle is mostly just a colossal waste of money. USSR nabbed all the big ones. Sorry about that.

I don't know where you're getting these ideas from. You honestly think that "most" of the shuttle needed to be replaced after each flight? That's a gross exaggeration. Yes, in retrospect it was too costly to be cost-effective; but that ignores the many insights and advances that have resulted from its design and use. It's short-sighted to claim it was a colossal waste of money; it'd only be so to continue using it *now*.

You're also wrong that the USSR didn't bother. They DID in fact bother. They designed, built, and launched the Buran, which was almost an exact copy of the space shuttle. The only reason they didn't keep flying it was because the Soviet Union collapsed. How can someone who makes such sweeping statements about the spacerace not even be aware of the Buran? It makes the rest of your positions on these matters utterly suspect.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Flag waving is always silly... regardless of who is doing it IMHO

 

[dystopian]

But...

...you're opposing American's "waving their flag"...

...by waving the Soviet Union's flag.

Which is mindboggling even when we're ignoring the fact that you're doing this by outright omitting or denying the relevance of entire swaths of space history.

You've claimed that they didn't try to land a man on the moon because they thought it was a colossal waste of money; but in point of fact they DID waste colossal amounts of money on a manned moonlanding program that didn't even work (the N1 rocket program was to be their answer to the Saturn V. Each of the 4 times they tried to launch one, it exploded). You've claimed that they didn't try to build a reusable space plane for the same reason, even though they did exactly that. You've even gone so far as claim technical capabilities for sputnik it never had.

And when you're called out on it, you just outright ignore it and give us a throwaway line about flag waving being silly? The fuck?

I don't care about flags. I do care about facts. And the fact is that the US space program was by no means inferior to that of the Soviets. The Soviets made many great advances, yes. So did the Americans. And yes, the Americans had many great failures. So too did the Soviets. And us Europeans and the Japanese have had some amazing successes (and failures) too, in more recent times. But you've outright claimed that the soviet failures don't exist in order to prop up your distaste for some perceived American flag waving.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Soviet space program was very good at sending comrades into space.


Return safely? Eh...but what an adventure for mother Russia!

USSR won the space race in every way they attempted. They were the first at everything they tried. The only thing the Russians didn´t attempt, simply because they thought it was a colossal waste of money, was to send a human to the Moon and back. But they did the rest first.

No. Russia didn't send a man to the moon because they couldn't. They got rockets into orbit because they could piggy-back on the Nazis but there was nobody to steal from for a moon rocket.

Scientifically we learned almost nothing from Apollo 11, 16 and 17 that we couldn´t have learned staying home and working in a lab. Don´t get me wrong, it was cool that we did it. But going to the Moon was more about propaganda than science. I´m not saying that the Russians were above propaganda. Certainly not. But as far as scientific value is concerned the Russians spent their space funding more wisely than NASA did. That´s just fact. Which is doubly impressive considering what a hopelessly corrupt shit hole of a country that is. It also may have something to do with the US president putting his big nose into what NASA should be working with. Khrushchev, bless his little heart, at least had the common sense to understand what it was he didn´t understand.

Yes and no. We learned little directly--but we learned a lot about spaceflight from the attempt.

As far as safety concerns, both USA and Russia primarily sent dare devil fighter pilots right up until the Challenger disaster. That accident made both sides realise the propaganda loss potential deaths are. From that time on they both shifted from sending adrenalin junky adventurers to calm and methodical scientists. So, historically there´s no difference at all when it comes to willingness to take risks.

The pilots on both sides are fighter pilots. It's not that they are after daredevils, it's that they are after people with thousands of hours flying high performance jet aircraft. In practice that means fighter pilots. Both sides now carry passengers that aren't fighter pilots.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I forgot OP linked to a site called "libertarian news". That's funny.

LOL, I just noticed that too.

Probably should use a less biased source next time.

 

[bilby]

USSR won the space race in every way they attempted. They were the first at everything they tried. The only thing the Russians didn´t attempt, simply because they thought it was a colossal waste of money, was to send a human to the Moon and back. But they did the rest first.

No. Russia didn't send a man to the moon because they couldn't. They got rockets into orbit because they could piggy-back on the Nazis but there was nobody to steal from for a moon rocket.

Although to be fair, this was because the Americans had cornered the market in nazi rocket scientists.

What put a man on the Moon? Good old American know-how, that's what. As supplied by good old Americans, like Doctor Werner von Braun.

Flag-waving by Americans or Russians on this issue is foolish. It is rendered even more foolish by the fact that if any flags are to be waved, they should have a swastika on them. And I really don't think we want to see that.

"I aim for the stars" - von Braun.

"But sometimes he hits London" - Churchill.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. Russia didn't send a man to the moon because they couldn't. They got rockets into orbit because they could piggy-back on the Nazis but there was nobody to steal from for a moon rocket.

Although to be fair, this was because the Americans had cornered the market in nazi rocket scientists.

What put a man on the Moon? Good old American know-how, that's what. As supplied by good old Americans, like Doctor Werner von Braun.

Flag-waving by Americans or Russians on this issue is foolish. It is rendered even more foolish by the fact that if any flags are to be waved, they should have a swastika on them. And I really don't think we want to see that.

"I aim for the stars" - von Braun.

"But sometimes he hits London" - Churchill.

No--we didn't get all the Nazi engineers. Both sides space programs were jump-started by the Nazis.

It's just the Russians have always been very poor at pushing technology, just about everything is stolen. There was nobody to steal a moon rocket from.

(This is also part of what lead to their collapse. We deliberately let them steal planted stuff with subtle flaws. Once they found out about some of it it calls into question everything they stole from us.)

 

[ApostateAbe]

"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."
I agree, this is baloney.

*double take* "Quantum vacuum virtual plasma" is something a science-fiction writer would come up with. If engineers find a claim plainly at odds with theoretical physics, I figure they should just put it on the back burner until the physics catches up.

 

[bilby]

Although to be fair, this was because the Americans had cornered the market in nazi rocket scientists.

What put a man on the Moon? Good old American know-how, that's what. As supplied by good old Americans, like Doctor Werner von Braun.

Flag-waving by Americans or Russians on this issue is foolish. It is rendered even more foolish by the fact that if any flags are to be waved, they should have a swastika on them. And I really don't think we want to see that.

"I aim for the stars" - von Braun.

"But sometimes he hits London" - Churchill.

No--we didn't get all the Nazi engineers. Both sides space programs were jump-started by the Nazis.

It's just the Russians have always been very poor at pushing technology, just about everything is stolen. There was nobody to steal a moon rocket from.

(This is also part of what lead to their collapse. We deliberately let them steal planted stuff with subtle flaws. Once they found out about some of it it calls into question everything they stole from us.)

The US was far more successful than the USSR in obtaining German rocket experts after the war; The earliest phase of Operation Overcast (later known as Operation Paperclip), for example, concentrated on the evacuation of rocket scientists from the Soviet Zone after the German surrender, but before the July withdrawal of British and US troops from the zone.

The Soviets got more of the hardware, and the Americans got more of the manpower; The movement of large quantities of rockets, rocket parts, machine tools and factories was difficult, while moving people was easy - few Germans wanted to surrender to the Russians rather than the Americans or British, given the option. And the Americans made damn sure that as many rocket experts as possible were given the option.

The British were the biggest losers in all this; the Americans out-bid them for the goodwill of the scientists, and directly robbed them of much of the material intelligence. All they got were a couple of complete V2s, and some crates of parts. The V2s were test fired into the sea, to no particular benefit.

The Russians couldn't build a moon rocket without stealing plans from the American moon rocket program, it's true. But the Americans got their plans drawn by (ex) Nazis. American rocket technology in the 1960s was developed primarily by Germans. The Russians stole plans; the Americans stole planners.

 

[barbos]

No. Russia didn't send a man to the moon because they couldn't. They got rockets into orbit because they could
piggy-back on the Nazis but there was nobody to steal from for a moon rocket.

But americans had nazies to steal moon rocket from.

 

[bilby]

No. Russia didn't send a man to the moon because they couldn't. They got rockets into orbit because they could
piggy-back on the Nazis but there was nobody to steal from for a moon rocket.

But americans had nazies to steal moon rocket from.

Exactly.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro[/YOUTUBE]

 

[barbos]

LOL, I just noticed that too.

Probably should use a less biased source next time.

I googled and posted the first pdf I found, I doubt these evil libertarians changed the pdf.

 

[Kharakov]

If someone can impart more energy to the spacetime outside of a box than inside of a box due to the configuration of the box, they suck.

 

[barbos]

If I remember correctly russian moon rocket was built just fine, It's just "unexpected" problems with vibrations in large number of engines or something.
Loren is being ridiculous in attributing SU successes to germans and forgetting about who was the head US space program.

 

[Artemus]

What put a man on the Moon? Good old American know-how, that's what. As supplied by good old Americans, like Doctor Werner von Braun.

I thought that I was the only one who still quoted Tom Lehrer!

ETA: Oops, I see you added the video link on this page. But I recognized the quote before I saw that. Really!!!

 

[barbos]

I think it's safe to say Nazis won the space race

 

[bilby]

I think it's safe to say Nazis won the space race

Indeed; but fortunately, they lost the race race.

 

[dystopian]

No--we didn't get all the Nazi engineers. Both sides space programs were jump-started by the Nazis.

It's just the Russians have always been very poor at pushing technology, just about everything is stolen. There was nobody to steal a moon rocket from.

As wrong as Zoidberg was, you're almost just as wrong. They didn't need to steal a moon rocket; they were perfectly capable of doing it on their own. The N1 (their moon rocket) still has the most powerful first stage of any rocket ever built, well exceeding that of the Saturn V. It wasn't that they had to steal the rocket designs, the problem was that it was underfunded, suffered early technical setbacks, and the N1's lead designer died during its development, and this last thing proved to be its undoing as it was a severely politicized project with other soviet prominents pushing for different design and research directions who now had no opposition.

The soviets certainly copied designs from time to time, but the N1 isn't among them. Furthermore, they often improved upon these designs. The Buran for instance was significantly technically superior to the Space Shuttle. It could land under weather conditions the space shuttle could not. It had a highly capable autopilot system while the space shuttle did not. The space shuttle system could only take a max of 30 tonnes into space. The buran system could take as much as a 100 tonnes thanks to the energia's (its launch rocket) design. The energia also had enough thrust and fuel to go all the way to the moon, or even mars. The energia was also reusable, unlike the central core of the shuttle launch system. It also used purely liquid propellant, which was much safer than what the shuttle system was working with. So while they copied the basic form of the shuttle, they greatly improved upon everything else.

It does the American spaceprogramme a great disservice to characterize it as having 'lost' the spacerace... it also does the Soviet spaceprogram great disservice by dismissing them as just stealing all their technology and not developing their own, which strikes me as the sort of view born from cold war propaganda.

I will say this for getting dragged back into this thread: it's made me rediscover Kerbal Space Program.