Need anti-inerrancy resources help

[steve_bank]

I'll play the role of theist. I'll make one of the typical claims and Brian can refute.

From the timeline derived from the bible we know the Earth is about 3500 years old.

 

[steve_bank]

My fellow theists, as we can see the atheists are unable to refute our claim.

They are unable to refute the bible, it must be true.


Moses and the Hebrews wandered in the desert for 40 years and then found the promised by god. It is in the bible therfre it s true.


Atheists can not refute the truth. What do you say atheist?

 

[Elixir]

Atheists can not refute the truth. What do you say atheist?

Why bother?

 

[Politesse]

Atheists can not refute the truth. What do you say atheist?

Why bother?

He's already determined to bother the theists. The question is whether or not he's bothering them effectively.

 

[atrib]

In this thread I will not be discussing how things played out. Even though my activism project over the last several months has been very successful, I do not see people in this thread willing to grant or believe that. Instead people are largely predicting disaster. If things instead go very well, my merely saying so would not convince them of that.

No worries. We'll find you on Youtube when the next episode of "Atheists being jackasses" gets uploaded.

Even though my activism project over the last several months has been very successful,

It was so successful that the Church members called the cops on you.

 

[atrib]

I can tolerate the opinions of others, that is why I asked for them. You confused not tolerating opinions with disagreeing on the merits of certain opinions.

Indeed. Here is you asking for the opinions of others in this thread.

So please do not suggest that I should not have this type of discussion with Christians. That is not what I am wanting this thread to be about.

Please do not derail this thread.

This thread is for accumulating a list of counter-views to research further. That is all.

TomC,

Please stop.

Thank you.

Please let that be your last entry in this thread.

Thank you.

 

[Brian63]

In this thread I will not be discussing how things played out. Even though my activism project over the last several months has been very successful, I do not see people in this thread willing to grant or believe that. Instead people are largely predicting disaster. If things instead go very well, my merely saying so would not convince them of that.

No worries. We'll find you on Youtube when the next episode of "Atheists being jackasses" gets uploaded.

Even though my activism project over the last several months has been very successful,

It was so successful that the Church members called the cops on you.

You forgot the large majority that enjoyed our discussions. You also forgot the pastor that I have become friends with. Why did you not mention them at all?

 

[steve_bank]

Atheists can not refute the truth. What do you say atheist?

Why bother?

It beats playing video games.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Part of the advantage of reading excellent books by experts is very good books usually have excellent biographies. Here is a good source of expert sources. It also helps with simple questions like "How do they know that?".

 

[steve_bank]

Not quite as strong a point or as good as trolling as you are shooting for.

A for effort, C- in execution. What more trolling do you have to try? Keep it coming.

I guess you don't have any quotes from books to answer the two of the most genral theist claims.

I have Christian friends. There are Christians I will avoid like the plague.

I had a black Christian friend when I was in assisted living. When I arrived I was a basket case. He gave me a lot of support. When we were out walking around Seattle or on the bus we'd meet people who he helped. Alcohol and drug addiction.

 

[atrib]

Even though I pointed out I would not be speaking publicly to the group, that comment was ignored and atrib made an inflammatory comment about me being on "the next episode of "Atheists being jackasses"". So atrib is not here to reliably understand my position or have a serious discussion. <removed>

Atrib understands your position just fine; he just doesn't agree with you. Disagreeing with someone on a public forum is NOT trolling.

Lets go through my posts in this thread one by one.

Post 99: I point out the irony of you telling posters to stop posting opinions in the very thread where you pontificate on your plan to introduce Christians to your "unexpected" opinions. How is this trolling?

Post 100: This is me telling you that you should do your homework yourself if you are unwilling to listen to the opinions of others, and that people are free to participate in conversations as they see fit within the boundaries of the forum rules. How is this trolling?

Post 125: Here I predict that you are likely to end up on a Youtube video mocking atheists if you carry out your half-assed plan to infiltrate Christian organizations in an effort to cure them of their affliction. Other posters in this thread have said the same thing, as this is a reasonable, predictable outcome given that most people today have smartphones with the ability to record video, know how to upload videos to Youtube and other social media sites, and an atheist making an ass out of himself in public would likely spur such an outcome. Other posters in this thread have also commented that your plan appears to be ill-conceived, so I am not alone in this assessment. How can posting such an opinion be considered trolling?

Post 126: In this post I rebut your claim that you have welcomed the opinions of others by posting your actual words telling people you are not interested in their opinions and that they should stop posting. Your own fucking words! How does this qualify as trolling?

Voicing my opinion that your plan is, at best, ill-conceived and asinine, and likely doomed to failure is not trolling, and your efforts to censor the opinions of others by calling them trolls is dishonest. Engage on the facts, and stop calling me a troll and apologize.

 

[Brian63]

I predict that you are likely to end up on a Youtube video mocking atheists

Does that also include what you *want* to happen? Because I have a very long track record of not appearing on Youtube. I have had dozens of these conversations, they were conducted in small settings and people/pastors would relay secrets to me as well. Almost all of them went very well and both parties enjoyed them. They learned new perspectives and grounds for disagreement with their religious beliefs. One pastor and I have become friends with each other as well. Again, why did you previously not include all that?

Other posters in this thread have also commented that your plan appears to be ill-conceived, so I am not alone in this assessment.

I agree you are not alone. What I would dispute is whether you are correct. Others in this thread have also gotten their facts wrong, and of course that will likely lead them to make erroneous conclusions. In the past there is a tremendous track record of success of engaging in events approximately like this. You repeatedly ignore the large success though, and zoom in on the small minority of times it did not go well (the most notable was because of the behavior of the macho-men security guards themselves trying to intimidate me. I was polite to them and they eventually permitted me access to their church.).

 

[Brian63]

And on a related note, how the fuck are you going to handle yourself in a hostile Christian forum when you can't even engage in a civil conversation with atheists without resorting to name calling? Think about that for a minute, if you can.

An online Christian forum? I have done so for many, many years. I already have a long track record and do not have to guess. That is partly what motivated me to engage in real-life activism and also prepared me for what types of arguments and claims to hear, and how to respond.

If you are referring to an in-person Christian forum, then that is exactly what I have been doing for many months now. Again, that project has been very successful. Lots of good intimate discussions with members and pastors about our views.

 

[steve_bank]

Brian may even rise to the level of being talked about by Tucker Carlson.

 

[atrib]

I predict that you are likely to end up on a Youtube video mocking atheists

Does that also include what you *want* to happen? Because I have a very long track record of not appearing on Youtube. I have had dozens of these conversations, they were conducted in small settings and people/pastors would relay secrets to me as well. Almost all of them went very well and both parties enjoyed them. They learned new perspectives and grounds for disagreement with their religious beliefs. One pastor and I have become friends with each other as well. Again, why did you previously not include all that?

Other posters in this thread have also commented that your plan appears to be ill-conceived, so I am not alone in this assessment.

I agree you are not alone. What I would dispute is whether you are correct. Others in this thread have also gotten their facts wrong, and of course that will likely lead them to make erroneous conclusions. In the past there is a tremendous track record of success of engaging in events approximately like this. You repeatedly ignore the large success though, and zoom in on the small minority of times it did not go well (the most notable was because of the behavior of the macho-men security guards themselves trying to intimidate me. I was polite to them and they eventually permitted me access to their church.).

If you want to enage in a conversation with me, you have to apologize first. You have called me a troll multiple times in this thread, despite my efforts in good faith to explain my point my view to you. It is now your turn to demonstrate that you are acting in good faith also - either rebut what I have said, or apologize.

 

[Brian63]

atrib's interpretation of a "good faith effort":

We'll find you on Youtube when the next episode of "Atheists being jackasses" gets uploaded.

Sets the bar pretty low for himself.

 

[Jarhyn]

Alright, so, the fact here is that I don't think you really appreciate how different this setting is compared to the other ones. One is walking into the country of people who nominally dislike the folks from across the border, and the other is walking into the military training range where the most insane of them have decided to take up hunting those folks from across their border and are holding rifle qualification drills.

I cannot emphasize enough how different these stakes are.

You will be a stranger in a strange land.

I'll just leave you with the idea that any kind of assumption that you are in any kind of practiced element here should be tossed out the window.

 

[steve_bank]

atrib's interpretation of a "good faith effort":

We'll find you on Youtube when the next episode of "Atheists being jackasses" gets uploaded.

Sets the bar pretty low for himself.

Part of what is being said repeatedly is you are not up to the task of a publc debate, based on your posts. If you do not have a ready response for sething as basic as the Young Earth Creationism claim I made you are lacking.

I would not be up to it without a lot of preparation. I'd want to know who the other side is and what they have said and published.

When I post on region it is generally off the top of my head based on repeated debates with theists, general knowledge, and responses form other atheists.

That would not be adequate for a public debate.

 

[Brian63]

Alright, so, the fact here is that I don't think you really appreciate how different this setting is compared to the other ones. One is walking into the country of people who nominally dislike the folks from across the border, and the other is walking into the military training range where the most insane of them have decided to take up hunting those folks from across their border and are holding rifle qualification drills.

I cannot emphasize enough how different these stakes are.

You will be a stranger in a strange land.

I'll just leave you with the idea that any kind of assumption that you are in any kind of practiced element here should be tossed out the window.

Thanks for the advice. I do not know if they will be:

Instantly hostile and aggressive without allowing me an inch.
Hostile and aggressive but also capable of being calmed through my own behavior (I have had this experience and they allowed me entrance into their church).
Hostile but also curious (also experienced).
Concerned but welcoming.
Very friendly.
Friendly but partly with other motives, such as them being spiritually obligated to evangelize to me and they think being really nice to me will help win me over to their religious beliefs.
Other.

I have experiences across a range of reactions. If I stopped myself from venturing into new territory just because there was a chance it was new territory, I never would have ventured into new territory at all. That is not a helpful approach in itself. If you are suggesting it is physically dangerous to be there, that would be more of a legit concern. Them having a very different ideology is insufficient reason to avoid them. I will take some cautionary measures like I have before and see how they respond.

 

[Jarhyn]

Alright, so, the fact here is that I don't think you really appreciate how different this setting is compared to the other ones. One is walking into the country of people who nominally dislike the folks from across the border, and the other is walking into the military training range where the most insane of them have decided to take up hunting those folks from across their border and are holding rifle qualification drills.

I cannot emphasize enough how different these stakes are.

You will be a stranger in a strange land.

I'll just leave you with the idea that any kind of assumption that you are in any kind of practiced element here should be tossed out the window.

Thanks for the advice. I do not know if they will be:

Instantly hostile and aggressive without allowing me an inch.
Hostile and aggressive but also capable of being calmed through my own behavior (I have had this experience and they allowed me entrance into their church).
Hostile but also curious (also experienced).
Concerned but welcoming.
Very friendly.
Friendly but partly with other motives, such as them being spiritually obligated to evangelize to me and they think being really nice to me will help win me over to their religious beliefs.
Other.

I have experiences across a range of reactions. If I stopped myself from venturing into new territory just because there was a chance it was new territory, I never would have ventured into new territory at all. That is not a helpful approach in itself. If you are suggesting it is physically dangerous to be there, that would be more of a legit concern. Them having a very different ideology is insufficient reason to avoid them. I will take some cautionary measures like I have before and see how they respond.

All of the above, actually. The problem is that the extreme nasty end of that spectrum is way overrepresented, and everyone else will be sympathetic to them and so the nicer end, while it has members who would represent that group well in the absence of the blowhards, will just be eclipsed and led by the nose by the blowhards.

I don't think you should stop yourself from venturing. I just think you should stop yourself from "touching anything".

This is, like it or not, pretty much the equivalent of a stealth level, or like being on a tour in a nuclear reactor. The moment you step out of line, you will be (hopefully just metaphorically) dogpiled by security and rabid apologists at least as crazed as the ones who turn up here from time to time until we scare them off.