Netanyahu has lost his fucking mind

[bilby]

Yes, they are.

There hasn't been a single world war in the seventy years since they were founded, despite there being two in the thirty years prior to that date.

Simply because they defined it as not war.

Wait, WHAT??

Are you saying that World War III broke out, and we didn't notice because the UN said it was just a noisy party that got out of hand?

I am 100% certain that we haven't yet had a World War since the inception of the UN.

If you think otherwise, you need a much better explanation than that "they defined it as not war" crap.

A conflict involving nations from every inhabited continent is not something that goes unnoticed due to a definition change by a supranational organisation.

 

[bilby]

During the last Gaza terrorist attack on Israel, UN observers found a cache of rockets in a school hall. After telling Hamas what naughty children they were for placing children in harms way by storing rockets in densely civilian areas where they were libel to bombed. What did they do? Hand the rockets right back to Hamas of course!

If you are going to make unsubstantiated and unverifiable claims; or when you say something verifiable, change the subject every time someone points out that you are completely wrong, then perhaps it would save us all a lot of time if you didn't post?

Why would I take your little anecdote here as having any relation to reality; and even if I were to accept every word of it as true, how would that go any way towards countering the very clear fact that war has MASSIVELY declined worldwide since the inception of the UN; or the equally clear fact that the UN does not solely exist to condemn Israel?

Reality exists. You don't get to have your own different reality; If you think that "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel"; or that the UN is not doing a great job in keeping the peace, then you are simply WRONG. It may be your opinion, but no, you are NOT entitled to it, any more than you are entitled to the opinion that the world is flat.

Pay a little attention to the real world

Yes, that's the advice I am giving, well spotted. Perhaps you could try to take it on board?

rather than just dismissing anything anti-Palestinian as a fabrication.

I dismiss any claims about the Israel/Palestine conflict that are unsourced and unsupported as fabrications. Basically 99.99% of the anecdotes about the conflict are embellished to the point of total bullshit, on both sides.

The UN charter makes NO MENTION of Israel. It is therefore WRONG to assert "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel". That's a real world fact.

 

[arkirk]

During the last Gaza terrorist attack on Israel, UN observers found a cache of rockets in a school hall. After telling Hamas what naughty children they were for placing children in harms way by storing rockets in densely civilian areas where they were libel to bombed. What did they do? Hand the rockets right back to Hamas of course!

If you are going to make unsubstantiated and unverifiable claims; or when you say something verifiable, change the subject every time someone points out that you are completely wrong, then perhaps it would save us all a lot of time if you didn't post?

Why would I take your little anecdote here as having any relation to reality; and even if I were to accept every word of it as true, how would that go any way towards countering the very clear fact that war has MASSIVELY declined worldwide since the inception of the UN; or the equally clear fact that the UN does not solely exist to condemn Israel?

Reality exists. You don't get to have your own different reality; If you think that "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel"; or that the UN is not doing a great job in keeping the peace, then you are simply WRONG. It may be your opinion, but no, you are NOT entitled to it, any more than you are entitled to the opinion that the world is flat.

Pay a little attention to the real world

Yes, that's the advice I am giving, well spotted. Perhaps you could try to take it on board?

rather than just dismissing anything anti-Palestinian as a fabrication.

I dismiss any claims about the Israel/Palestine conflict that are unsourced and unsupported as fabrications. Basically 99.99% of the anecdotes about the conflict are embellished to the point of total bullshit, on both sides.

The UN charter makes NO MENTION of Israel. It is therefore WRONG to assert "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel". That's a real world fact.

The U.S. dumped more explosives on Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos in the Vietnam WAR than the total tonnage of explosives used on all of Europe in WWII. How can we call that a decline? Gaza resembles bombed out European cities in WWII. Shock and AWE well...bigger conventional explosives and more of them in the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters per square foot than in WWII. Over and over, that is the story. We seem to have forgotten about Kuwait. We are helping the Saudis do a shock and awe thing in Yemen. These things are all real. So is the genocide in Guatamala and Chili...just to mention a few.

Netanyahu is indeed insane and our government just humors him.

 

[bilby]

During the last Gaza terrorist attack on Israel, UN observers found a cache of rockets in a school hall. After telling Hamas what naughty children they were for placing children in harms way by storing rockets in densely civilian areas where they were libel to bombed. What did they do? Hand the rockets right back to Hamas of course!

If you are going to make unsubstantiated and unverifiable claims; or when you say something verifiable, change the subject every time someone points out that you are completely wrong, then perhaps it would save us all a lot of time if you didn't post?

Why would I take your little anecdote here as having any relation to reality; and even if I were to accept every word of it as true, how would that go any way towards countering the very clear fact that war has MASSIVELY declined worldwide since the inception of the UN; or the equally clear fact that the UN does not solely exist to condemn Israel?

Reality exists. You don't get to have your own different reality; If you think that "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel"; or that the UN is not doing a great job in keeping the peace, then you are simply WRONG. It may be your opinion, but no, you are NOT entitled to it, any more than you are entitled to the opinion that the world is flat.

Pay a little attention to the real world

Yes, that's the advice I am giving, well spotted. Perhaps you could try to take it on board?

rather than just dismissing anything anti-Palestinian as a fabrication.

I dismiss any claims about the Israel/Palestine conflict that are unsourced and unsupported as fabrications. Basically 99.99% of the anecdotes about the conflict are embellished to the point of total bullshit, on both sides.

The UN charter makes NO MENTION of Israel. It is therefore WRONG to assert "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel". That's a real world fact.

The U.S. dumped more explosives on Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos in the Vietnam WAR than the total tonnage of explosives used on all of Europe in WWII. How can we call that a decline? Gaza resembles bombed out European cities in WWII. Shock and AWE well...bigger conventional explosives and more of them in the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters per square foot than in WWII. Over and over, that is the story. We seem to have forgotten about Kuwait. We are helping the Saudis do a shock and awe thing in Yemen. These things are all real. So is the genocide in Guatamala and Chili...just to mention a few.

All of which does NOTHING to change the fact that we have had only two World Wars, and both occurred prior to the existence of the UN.

Nor does it change the fact that worldwide deaths due to war have trended downwards since the UN was founded, as have the number of wars fought.

Sure, it would be nice if there were even fewer deaths, and even fewer wars. But complaining that a solution was only 95% effective seems a touch churlish; would you prefer no improvement at all, if you can't have perfection?

Netanyahu is indeed insane and our government just humors him.

Yes, he is, and yes, your government does. You should do something about that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Simply because they defined it as not war.

Wait, WHAT??

Are you saying that World War III broke out, and we didn't notice because the UN said it was just a noisy party that got out of hand?

I am 100% certain that we haven't yet had a World War since the inception of the UN.

If you think otherwise, you need a much better explanation than that "they defined it as not war" crap.

A conflict involving nations from every inhabited continent is not something that goes unnoticed due to a definition change by a supranational organisation.

Korean war.
Vietnam war.
Israel in 48, 56, 67 and 73.
Iraq, twice
China vs most of the nations around it.

 

[angelo]

During the last Gaza terrorist attack on Israel, UN observers found a cache of rockets in a school hall. After telling Hamas what naughty children they were for placing children in harms way by storing rockets in densely civilian areas where they were libel to bombed. What did they do? Hand the rockets right back to Hamas of course!

If you are going to make unsubstantiated and unverifiable claims; or when you say something verifiable, change the subject every time someone points out that you are completely wrong, then perhaps it would save us all a lot of time if you didn't post?

Why would I take your little anecdote here as having any relation to reality; and even if I were to accept every word of it as true, how would that go any way towards countering the very clear fact that war has MASSIVELY declined worldwide since the inception of the UN; or the equally clear fact that the UN does not solely exist to condemn Israel?

Reality exists. You don't get to have your own different reality; If you think that "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel"; or that the UN is not doing a great job in keeping the peace, then you are simply WRONG. It may be your opinion, but no, you are NOT entitled to it, any more than you are entitled to the opinion that the world is flat.

Pay a little attention to the real world

Yes, that's the advice I am giving, well spotted. Perhaps you could try to take it on board?

rather than just dismissing anything anti-Palestinian as a fabrication.

I dismiss any claims about the Israel/Palestine conflict that are unsourced and unsupported as fabrications. Basically 99.99% of the anecdotes about the conflict are embellished to the point of total bullshit, on both sides.

The UN charter makes NO MENTION of Israel. It is therefore WRONG to assert "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel". That's a real world fact.

The U.S. dumped more explosives on Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos in the Vietnam WAR than the total tonnage of explosives used on all of Europe in WWII. How can we call that a decline? Gaza resembles bombed out European cities in WWII. Shock and AWE well...bigger conventional explosives and more of them in the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters per square foot than in WWII. Over and over, that is the story. We seem to have forgotten about Kuwait. We are helping the Saudis do a shock and awe thing in Yemen. These things are all real. So is the genocide in Guatamala and Chili...just to mention a few.

Netanyahu is indeed insane and our government just humors him.

It's tough been the world's policeman.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Pay a little attention to the real world

Yes, that's the advice I am giving, well spotted. Perhaps you could try to take it on board?

rather than just dismissing anything anti-Palestinian as a fabrication.

I dismiss any claims about the Israel/Palestine conflict that are unsourced and unsupported as fabrications. Basically 99.99% of the anecdotes about the conflict are embellished to the point of total bullshit, on both sides.

The UN charter makes NO MENTION of Israel. It is therefore WRONG to assert "The UN's sole reason for existence is to condemn Israel". That's a real world fact.

Israel posts pictures of what they find.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All of which does NOTHING to change the fact that we have had only two World Wars, and both occurred prior to the existence of the UN.

and both occurred prior to the existence of the bomb. MAD did an awful lot more about keeping the scale of war down than those idiots at the UN.

 

[bilby]

Wait, WHAT??

Are you saying that World War III broke out, and we didn't notice because the UN said it was just a noisy party that got out of hand?

I am 100% certain that we haven't yet had a World War since the inception of the UN.

If you think otherwise, you need a much better explanation than that "they defined it as not war" crap.

A conflict involving nations from every inhabited continent is not something that goes unnoticed due to a definition change by a supranational organisation.

Korean war.
Vietnam war.
Israel in 48, 56, 67 and 73.
Iraq, twice
China vs most of the nations around it.

Sorry, which of these are you claiming was a world war?

- - - Updated - - -

All of which does NOTHING to change the fact that we have had only two World Wars, and both occurred prior to the existence of the UN.

and both occurred prior to the existence of the bomb. MAD did an awful lot more about keeping the scale of war down than those idiots at the UN.

OK, then I take it you support giving nuclear weapons to everybody?

 

[angelo]

A nation that has sworn to annihilate another nation shouldn't even be allowed to have bow and arrows let alone a nuclear bomb.

 

[bilby]

A nation that has sworn to annihilate another nation shouldn't even be allowed to have bow and arrows let alone a nuclear bomb.

The Potsdam Declaration or the Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese Surrender is a statement that called for the surrender of all Japanese armed forces during World War II. On July 26, 1945, United States President Harry S. Truman, United Kingdom Prime Minister Winston Churchill, and Chairman of the Nationalist Government of China Chiang Kai-shek issued the document, which outlined the terms of surrender for the Empire of Japan as agreed upon at the Potsdam Conference. This ultimatum stated that, if Japan did not surrender, it would face "prompt and utter destruction."

Source.

OK, so you think the USA, UK and China shouldn't have as much as a bow and arrow; Sounds good to me, but who's going to enforce it?

 

[angelo]

None of those nations has sworn to destroy another. Iran has.

 

[bilby]

None of those nations has sworn to destroy another. Iran has.

You mean, apart from in the declaration I just quoted?

 

[Jayjay]

This is false. The population of Israel in 1948 was only 873 thousand, of which 716 thousand were Jews. Had there not been ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Arabs, they Jews would have been a minority.

You're forgetting the borders moved because of the Arab attack.

Israel didn't have any fixed border until the 1948 armistice line so it's irrelevant to refer to some fictional subdivision of the land that never existed anywhere but paper. Israel had to ethnically cleanse the land to have a Jewish majority, so they did. Hence the war, not due to any "Arab attack".

So you think it's acceptable to expect a nation to agree to commit suicide?

No, and that's why it's not unexpected for Palestinians to reject the offers made so far.

Nobody's asking the Palestinians to commit suicide.

Demanding the right of return is asking for Israel to commit suicide.

I didn't say it wasn't. But the only future for Palestinians that Israel has suggested for Palestinians is also a suicide (for certain values of what suicide for a nation means). They would not have a viable contiguous state (even if we ignore Gaza), no control over their own borders, no control over their own airspace or waters, no right to defend themselves, and no right to define their own immigration policy. Basically they'd be reservations inside Israel. Turn the tables around, and imagine if someone suggested that Israel should be reduced to the kind of bantustan that you think Palestinians should accept, wouldn't you describe it as "suicide"?

The rigth of return could be negotiated and resolved in a lot of ways that would massive immigration to Israel (for example, by relocating them in West Bank where Israeli settlements currently are). Israeli refusal and excuses not to do so are just an excuse not to negotiate at all because the status quote of slowly creeping expansion and pushing the the Palestinians to ever smaller conclaves is serving Israel better.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And you're still wrong. The PA's laws do not specify in what form the Right of Return must be addressed, only that the right itself cannot be waived, and that attempting to waive it is treason.

It's kind of like how the Constitution gives Americans the right to keep and bear arms but doesn't specify what kind of arms they can bear, which is basically why assault weapons bans and prohibitions on handguns are generally considered constitutional.

Waived or compromised on. Nothing but a full implementation is acceptable.

And you're STILL wrong. The law does not specify "full implementation" nor does it define what "full implementation" even means. Only that the RIGHT ITSELF must not be infringed, and Palestinians cannot work with foreign governments (meaning Israel) to infringe them.

Technically, that wouldn't even apply to the Right of Return in the GENERAL sense. It would actually bar Abbas from helping Israel disallow INDIVIDUAL Palestinians from exercising that right in one form or another. The government of Palestine cannot actually waive the collective rights of individual people on their behalf, it can only act in a way that is contrary to their rights legislatively or operationally.

 

[angelo]

The right of return is a joke, only it's not funny. Less than half a million left, but now millions are claiming a right of return that if implemented would spell the end of the only Jewish state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're forgetting the borders moved because of the Arab attack.

Israel didn't have any fixed border until the 1948 armistice line so it's irrelevant to refer to some fictional subdivision of the land that never existed anywhere but paper. Israel had to ethnically cleanse the land to have a Jewish majority, so they did. Hence the war, not due to any "Arab attack".

The Jews were going to accept the UN-drawn borders. Look at that lying map that's often trotted out--the change from the UN borders to the 1948 cease-fire lines is reported as Israel stealing land.

So you think it's acceptable to expect a nation to agree to commit suicide?

No, and that's why it's not unexpected for Palestinians to reject the offers made so far.

Nobody's asking the Palestinians to commit suicide.

Demanding the right of return is asking for Israel to commit suicide.

I didn't say it wasn't. But the only future for Palestinians that Israel has suggested for Palestinians is also a suicide (for certain values of what suicide for a nation means). They would not have a viable contiguous state (even if we ignore Gaza), no control over their own borders, no control over their own airspace or waters, no right to defend themselves, and no right to define their own immigration policy.

Contiguous state: It wouldn't be the only such nation. And there is no feasible means of giving them a contiguous state without breaking up Israel.

Border control: If they had been peaceful they would have gotten it.

Airspace & waters: Likewise.

Defend themselves: Against what? If they behaved they would not be facing any threats.

Immigration policy: They've been defining it already--no Palestinians are to be admitted no matter what.

The rigth of return could be negotiated and resolved in a lot of ways that would massive immigration to Israel (for example, by relocating them in West Bank where Israeli settlements currently are). Israeli refusal and excuses not to do so are just an excuse not to negotiate at all because the status quote of slowly creeping expansion and pushing the the Palestinians to ever smaller conclaves is serving Israel better.

As it stands now Palestinians could return to the Palestinian territories. It's blocked by the Palestinian government--they want to use those refugees as a weapon against Israel, they don't actually care about the people.

- - - Updated - - -

Waived or compromised on. Nothing but a full implementation is acceptable.

And you're STILL wrong. The law does not specify "full implementation" nor does it define what "full implementation" even means. Only that the RIGHT ITSELF must not be infringed, and Palestinians cannot work with foreign governments (meaning Israel) to infringe them.

Technically, that wouldn't even apply to the Right of Return in the GENERAL sense. It would actually bar Abbas from helping Israel disallow INDIVIDUAL Palestinians from exercising that right in one form or another. The government of Palestine cannot actually waive the collective rights of individual people on their behalf, it can only act in a way that is contrary to their rights legislatively or operationally.

To compromise is to infringe.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

To compromise is to infringe.

STILL wrong. Any compromise that allows Palestinians to exercise the right of return is lawful. So long as that right is recognized and upheld, it meets the requirements.

It's not really me you're arguing this with, it's Abbas himself:

“Let me put it simply: the right of return is a personal decision. What does this mean? That neither the PA, nor the state, nor the PLO, nor Abu-Mazen [Abbas], nor any Palestinian or Arab leader has the right to deprive someone from his right to return.”

“The choice is yours. You want to return? You will return. You don’t? You’re free to remain; there is compensation and other details … I just wanted to remark on this point, that the right of return is a personal right. Even a father cannot forgo his children’s right.”

You act like Abbas is having his hands tied by hardliners in the Palestinian Authority. Abbas was the one who WROTE that piece of legislation; he understands, better than you, what it means and how it's supposed to be implemented.

 

[arkirk]

The right of return is a joke, only it's not funny. Less than half a million left, but now millions are claiming a right of return that if implemented would spell the end of the only Jewish state.

What the fuck do you care if there is a Jewish State? Why must there be a Jewish State? How about simply adopting a humane attitude to both of these terribly misinformed and misled factions.....Arabs and Jews. Your defacto support of the Jewish State in every case and desire to destroy Arabs is highly suspect to me. Why not demand somewhere in the world an Atheist State?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

STILL wrong. Any compromise that allows Palestinians to exercise the right of return is lawful. So long as that right is recognized and upheld, it meets the requirements.

It's not really me you're arguing this with, it's Abbas himself:

“Let me put it simply: the right of return is a personal decision. What does this mean? That neither the PA, nor the state, nor the PLO, nor Abu-Mazen [Abbas], nor any Palestinian or Arab leader has the right to deprive someone from his right to return.”

“The choice is yours. You want to return? You will return. You don’t? You’re free to remain; there is compensation and other details … I just wanted to remark on this point, that the right of return is a personal right. Even a father cannot forgo his children’s right.”

You act like Abbas is having his hands tied by hardliners in the Palestinian Authority. Abbas was the one who WROTE that piece of legislation; he understands, better than you, what it means and how it's supposed to be implemented.

Of course he weasels when speaking to western ears--and that is weaseling, he's not saying that any lesser option can be negotiated. All he's actually saying is that individual Palestinians can choose not exercise it.