Netanyahu has lost his fucking mind

[laughing dog]

Israeli settler attacks on Palestinians quadruple, says UN

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-settler-attacks-on-palestinians-quadruple-says-un-9062456.html

The UN is not remotely a credible source in Israel/Palestine issues.

However remote a credible source the UN is on Israel/Palestine issues, its credibility trumps yours.

An awful lot of those "price tag" attacks are really internal Palestinian issues or outright fabrications. (Look at how many of them happen on the Sabbath? An observant Jew certainly isn't going to do that!)

Outside of making up yet another excuse for Israeli violence, what makes you assume an attack must be by a truly observant Jew?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) You haven't shown this to true. You haven't even shown it to be likely.

2) If it's true, then you can tell us which government owned the vast majority of the land, and how it came to be government property. Was the land owned by the British Empire? Or are you conflating communal property, like an extended family's grazing land or a village well, with government property so you can make an inane argument that the forcible transfer from Palestinian control to Zionist control was merely a change in government administration?

Look it up--you're not going to believe any source I link anyway.

The land was owned by the Ottoman Empire--and that fell apart. People rented farmland.

You know damn well the Jewish Agency realized early in the 1930s that they couldn't afford to buy all the land they needed to create a Jewish State, and that they didn't want to have Palestinian hold-outs in their planned Zionist communities. You know they decided that ethnic cleansing was the only way they could empty prime real estate and take over the agricultural and commercial property they wanted to claim. And you know that even if the vast majority of land had been government property, taking it by force from the people who lived there was still theft, banditry, strong-arm robbery, pilferage, and larceny.

The ones doing the ethnic cleansing were the Arabs.

Of course, nowadays Zionist apologists simply claim the land was empty ("a land without a people for a people without a land") or that some government somewhere owned it so that makes the transfer of control (at gunpoint) okay. Occasionally, people who know nothing about the actual history of the conflict are persuaded to believe it. But that doesn't make it true.

I'm not claiming the land was empty. I'm claiming it was government-owned.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

On creation of the state of Israel, there were over 500.000 Jewish refugees from various Arab countries that were expelled.

So? How does that justify expelling and taking land from some other group of people who had no responsibility whatsoever in it?

Besides you have the timeline backwards. Israel expelled the Palestinians first, and the Arab countries kicked out most of their Jews as a response after the war. Besides, the newly founded state of Israel actively encouraged the emigration of Jewish people from Arab lands.

No. The Palestinians left of their own accord--the "expulsion" was Israel not allowing those that had left to return. Most of the Jews were expelled before that happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

On creation of the state of Israel, there were over 500.000 Jewish refugees from various Arab countries that were expelled.

That 500,000 number comes from counting Jewish immigrants from Arab lands who arrived in Israel between 1948 and 1972. The only reason for making the timeframe so long is so that French Jews who quietly and voluntarily emigrated to Israel when Algeria became independent can be included. It's not an accounting of people who were forced out at gunpoint and ethnically cleansed from their 1,000+ years old communities, although there were a lot of them.

Anyway, you can't use what happened to people in Algeria in 1968 to justify what happened to people in Palestine in 1947. You can't even use what happened to people in Germany in 1944 to justify it, although those events makes it at least understandable.

Yeah--because while Algeria was under French control they couldn't expel the Jews.

And when a large population moves like that it's not voluntary, whatever it looks like. It's getting out when they can see the writing on the wall. (Note that the Palestinians were not planning to stay away, it's a totally different situation.)

 

[Arctish]

Look it up--you're not going to believe any source I link anyway.

I might not believe it; then again, I might find out that it's true after I check out the central claims. Either way it would still be an improvement, because right now I don't believe you have a source at all.

The land was owned by the Ottoman Empire--and that fell apart. People rented farmland.

That's pretty vague. How much of the land under cultivation was owned by the Ottoman Empire, how much was communal property recognized as such by the Ottomans, and how much was privately owned? What about the houses and business properties in places like Majdal and Ramla that were seized by Zionists when Israel was formed? Did the government own those too, or were they privately owned?

You know damn well the Jewish Agency realized early in the 1930s that they couldn't afford to buy all the land they needed to create a Jewish State, and that they didn't want to have Palestinian hold-outs in their planned Zionist communities. You know they decided that ethnic cleansing was the only way they could empty prime real estate and take over the agricultural and commercial property they wanted to claim. And you know that even if the vast majority of land had been government property, taking it by force from the people who lived there was still theft, banditry, strong-arm robbery, pilferage, and larceny.

The ones doing the ethnic cleansing were the Arabs.

Bullshit.

You know the history. You know how the plans of the Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency in the 1930s became reality during the formation of the State of Israel in the late 1940s. You know the policy of emptying Palestinian villages begun under Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion was continued by the next three. You know the forcible relocation and expulsion of Palestinians has continued ever since.

I once asked you to name a 5 year span following the formation of the State of Israel in which Israelis were not forcing Palestinians off their farmland and out of their homes to make way for Zionist settlers. I later reduced the time frame to just a 2 year span. Have you found one, or are you ready to admit there isn't one to be found?

Of course, nowadays Zionist apologists simply claim the land was empty ("a land without a people for a people without a land") or that some government somewhere owned it so that makes the transfer of control (at gunpoint) okay. Occasionally, people who know nothing about the actual history of the conflict are persuaded to believe it. But that doesn't make it true.

I'm not claiming the land was empty. I'm claiming it was government-owned.

You were claiming it wasn't stolen, and are trying to use an unsupported claim about ownership to cover up the theft.

 

[Arctish]

That 500,000 number comes from counting Jewish immigrants from Arab lands who arrived in Israel between 1948 and 1972. The only reason for making the timeframe so long is so that French Jews who quietly and voluntarily emigrated to Israel when Algeria became independent can be included. It's not an accounting of people who were forced out at gunpoint and ethnically cleansed from their 1,000+ years old communities, although there were a lot of them.

Anyway, you can't use what happened to people in Algeria in 1968 to justify what happened to people in Palestine in 1947. You can't even use what happened to people in Germany in 1944 to justify it, although those events makes it at least understandable.

Yeah--because while Algeria was under French control they couldn't expel the Jews.

And when a large population moves like that it's not voluntary, whatever it looks like. It's getting out when they can see the writing on the wall. (Note that the Palestinians were not planning to stay away, it's a totally different situation.)

I would ask you to support your argument but it doesn't matter. Even if every single person in that 500,000 number had been forced out of Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc. over that 24 year period, it still wouldn't justify Zionists forcing out Palestinians. The Palestinians weren't the ones forcing the Jews out of other countries, and the expulsion of the Palestinians started first.

 

[angelo]

The UN is not remotely a credible source in Israel/Palestine issues.

However remote a credible source the UN is on Israel/Palestine issues, its credibility trumps yours.

An awful lot of those "price tag" attacks are really internal Palestinian issues or outright fabrications. (Look at how many of them happen on the Sabbath? An observant Jew certainly isn't going to do that!)

Outside of making up yet another excuse for Israeli violence, what makes you assume an attack must be by a truly observant Jew?

That bastion of impartiality the UN has no credibility at all. In fact it's main reason for its existence is to criticise Israel at every turn. In the UN's eyes, there's only one side of this conflict, and that's on the Palestinian side. N wonder when one notices that it's made up of mainly Islamic countries. Appointing Saudi Arabia as a human rights advocate says it all!

 

[arkirk]

You can say "Jews" because the only people with any real power in Israel are Jews. It is a religious state in action.

But Israel has been stealing land non-stop for the past few decades.

To deny it is simply to lie. To be dismissed as an ignorant know nothing.

Whatever land is "stolen" is land that would constitute Israel proper in any peace settlement, even if the 67 borders are used as any guide.

Methinks you are talking through your hat. Are YOU the official JEWISH SPOKESMAN HERE?

 

[bilby]

Whatever land is "stolen" is land that would constitute Israel proper in any peace settlement, even if the 67 borders are used as any guide.

Methinks you are talking through your hat. Are YOU the official JEWISH SPOKESMAN HERE?

I don't think he is talking through his hat.

Not unless he is sitting on it.

 

[angelo]

Whatever land is "stolen" is land that would constitute Israel proper in any peace settlement, even if the 67 borders are used as any guide.

Methinks you are talking through your hat. Are YOU the official JEWISH SPOKESMAN HERE?

I don't need to be Jewish spokesman! I just point out the truth from the bullshit sprouted by the likes of you and others!
http://i-supportisrael.blogspot.co.il/2015/10/watch-msnbc-apologizes-for-being-anti.html

- - - Updated - - -

I repeat again. Palestinian apologists support terrorism, it's as simple as that! No if or buts, those are facts!

- - - Updated - - -

Methinks you are talking through your hat. Are YOU the official JEWISH SPOKESMAN HERE?

I don't think he is talking through his hat.

Not unless he is sitting on it.

You as a teacher should know better. With teachers like you, I really do worry about future generations and Australia as a whole!

 

[bilby]

Methinks you are talking through your hat. Are YOU the official JEWISH SPOKESMAN HERE?

I don't need to be Jewish spokesman! I just point out the truth from the bullshit sprouted by the likes of you and others!
http://i-supportisrael.blogspot.co.il/2015/10/watch-msnbc-apologizes-for-being-anti.html

- - - Updated - - -

I repeat again. Palestinian apologists support terrorism, it's as simple as that! No if or buts, those are facts!

- - - Updated - - -

Methinks you are talking through your hat. Are YOU the official JEWISH SPOKESMAN HERE?

I don't think he is talking through his hat.

Not unless he is sitting on it.

You as a teacher should know better. With teachers like you, I really do worry about future generations and Australia as a whole!

Yet another example of your commitment to accurate and evidence based comment.

I am not now, have never been, and have never claimed to be a teacher. Once again you have mistaken your erroneous belief for fact.

 

[Arctish]

Look it up--you're not going to believe any source I link anyway.

The land was owned by the Ottoman Empire--and that fell apart. People rented farmland.

I've been looking around for information, but I don't know what you are using as a source.

Does your source contain any information that contradicts what has been reported here, other than the claim that most of the land was owned by the government?

 

[untermensche]

Fine.

The only honest map clearly shows the results of slow and steady theft.

And that was 3 years ago. The theft has gone on without stop during that time.

Not to mention the terrorist attacks with the military of Gaza.

Except the division has been basically fixed by the wall--that was a lot more than 3 years ago.

You think there is a wall on the entire Palestinian ever shrinking "border"?

Your defense of theft is pathetic.

 

[iolo]

Just as Hitler could always see to it that his propagandists shouted down decency, so the Zionists use American money to shout everyone else down. The land of Palestine belongs to the Palestinians, the descendants of the Old Testament Jews, whereas the Zionists are merely Nazi liars and will never be anything else.

 

[Jayjay]

So? How does that justify expelling and taking land from some other group of people who had no responsibility whatsoever in it?

Besides you have the timeline backwards. Israel expelled the Palestinians first, and the Arab countries kicked out most of their Jews as a response after the war. Besides, the newly founded state of Israel actively encouraged the emigration of Jewish people from Arab lands.

You have it arse up! The moment the UN declared a partition creating a Jewish state, it was attacked on all sides by far more numerically Arab armies which had their arses kicked after a long struggle and thousands of casualties on both sides. Many Palestinian fled the violence, creating half a million refugees which were refused asylum by the other Arab nations.

No, I was exactly right. The war didn't start when UN suggested the partition plan, it started when Israel declared independence. Which was only fair... imagine what you'd do if a group of immigrants moved to your country, and declared part of it as theirs without even asking the the natives who happened to live there? The Arabs were utterly clueless how incompetent their armies really were, but from moral point of view they were absolutely justified.

Before the war, the area that was to become Israel proper had an Arab majority. It could not have possibly existed as a both democratic and Jewish state. That's why the Arabs had to be ethnically cleansed when Israel was founded. To pretend otherwise is just silly.

 

[Jayjay]

That 500,000 number comes from counting Jewish immigrants from Arab lands who arrived in Israel between 1948 and 1972. The only reason for making the timeframe so long is so that French Jews who quietly and voluntarily emigrated to Israel when Algeria became independent can be included. It's not an accounting of people who were forced out at gunpoint and ethnically cleansed from their 1,000+ years old communities, although there were a lot of them.

Anyway, you can't use what happened to people in Algeria in 1968 to justify what happened to people in Palestine in 1947. You can't even use what happened to people in Germany in 1944 to justify it, although those events makes it at least understandable.

Yeah--because while Algeria was under French control they couldn't expel the Jews.

And when a large population moves like that it's not voluntary, whatever it looks like. It's getting out when they can see the writing on the wall. (Note that the Palestinians were not planning to stay away, it's a totally different situation.)

Which is why not letting the Palestinians back is worse. At least the Jews had some place to go.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah--because while Algeria was under French control they couldn't expel the Jews.

And when a large population moves like that it's not voluntary, whatever it looks like. It's getting out when they can see the writing on the wall. (Note that the Palestinians were not planning to stay away, it's a totally different situation.)

I would ask you to support your argument but it doesn't matter. Even if every single person in that 500,000 number had been forced out of Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc. over that 24 year period, it still wouldn't justify Zionists forcing out Palestinians. The Palestinians weren't the ones forcing the Jews out of other countries, and the expulsion of the Palestinians started first.

And you're missing the fact that few people were forced out of Israel in 48. The vast majority of the displacements were people who left of their own accord, expecting to return victoriously--and when they wouldn't renounce violence Israel didn't let them back in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except the division has been basically fixed by the wall--that was a lot more than 3 years ago.

You think there is a wall on the entire Palestinian ever shrinking "border"?

Your defense of theft is pathetic.

Where have they expanded past the wall???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah--because while Algeria was under French control they couldn't expel the Jews.

And when a large population moves like that it's not voluntary, whatever it looks like. It's getting out when they can see the writing on the wall. (Note that the Palestinians were not planning to stay away, it's a totally different situation.)

Which is why not letting the Palestinians back is worse. At least the Jews had some place to go.

The Arabs certainly could have put them up in the houses of the Jews they just threw out. Instead they caged them, destroyed their ability to have a nation (they annexed the land intended for a Palestinian state to ensure the Palestinians had no state) and fed them a diet of hate.

 

[Will Wiley]

I would ask you to support your argument but it doesn't matter. Even if every single person in that 500,000 number had been forced out of Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc. over that 24 year period, it still wouldn't justify Zionists forcing out Palestinians. The Palestinians weren't the ones forcing the Jews out of other countries, and the expulsion of the Palestinians started first.

And you're missing the fact that few people were forced out of Israel in 48. The vast majority of the displacements were people who left of their own accord, expecting to return victoriously--and when they wouldn't renounce violence Israel didn't let them back in.

You could read some Benny Morris, himself a zionist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris or Ilan Pappé https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Pappé