Netanyahu has lost his fucking mind

[Will Wiley]

In every war there are isolated incidents where both sides massacre innocents. The fire bombing of Dresden comes to mind. US troops in Vietnam another.

They stole the land. What don't you understand about that?

 

[angelo]

In every war there are isolated incidents where both sides massacre innocents. The fire bombing of Dresden comes to mind. US troops in Vietnam another.

They stole the land. What don't you understand about that?

They stole what fucking land!!! Tell me. What was the Palestinian currency in use in ancient Palestinian times? What was their capital city? What type of government did the ancient Palestinians have? Have there ever been archaeological digs of ancient Palestinian sites, and have any Palestinian artefacts been dug up to prove they had roots in this land? Did they have any patriarchs in ancient times that even today their final resting places are known? What other proof do they posses that they were the original inhabitants of that land before 1400 years ago?

 

[Arctish]

They stole the land. What don't you understand about that?

They stole what fucking land!!! Tell me. What was the Palestinian currency in use in ancient Palestinian times? What was their capital city? What type of government did the ancient Palestinians have? Have there ever been archaeological digs of ancient Palestinian sites, and have any Palestinian artefacts been dug up to prove they had roots in this land? Did they have any patriarchs in ancient times that even today their final resting places are known? What other proof do they posses that they were the original inhabitants of that land before 1400 years ago?

Those are all good questions. You should look around for answers. You can start with Jericho if you'd like, where the archeological record indicates continuous inhabitation for at least 9,000 years, and perhaps as much as 12,000 years. Jenin, Nablus, and Hebron have also been continuously inhabited for thousands of years. Also, don't overlook religious conversion and inter-faith marriages as a source of Muslims and Christians in the Jewish homeland. That happened a lot.

Anyway, it wasn't the indigenous Jewish population that was stealing land. It was Zionist immigrants from Europe who decided they had more right to the Middle East than the people who actually lived there.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"That's because the Palestinians ARE to blame for the holocaust!"

Is it that ridiculous or outlandish to suggest he might have played a role in the decision?

Yes. It is ridiculous and outlandish to suggest the Grand Mufti "might have played a role in the decision," even according to Israeli historians.

But that's not what Netanyahu is claiming, after all. Netanyahu said he played a "central role in fomenting the final solution." That he was involved in the decision AT ALL is a dubious proposition at best; to say he had a "central role" is just plain asinine.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Do you seriously think kids being raised to embrace the violence and bigotry of their parents is limited to Palestinians?

Try doing a google image search for "Zionist settler children" sometime.

Do we see Jewish teens going around murdering Palestinians?

As a matter of fact, we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_and_murder_of_Mohammed_Abu_Khdeir

Anyway, it's off-topic. Derec's post made it sound like he thinks only Palestinian kids are being taught to share their parent's bigotry and hate. That's simply not true.

One case--and it wasn't done by teens.

Three of the six suspects were minors. It is also FAR from the only case, it is merely the best publicized one in the western press.

Inflammatory and from Haaretz, your first assumption should be that it's false.

Why do you always assume that your own personal biases are reliable enough that everyone else should share them?

 

[Will Wiley]

delete

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They stole the land. What don't you understand about that?

What was the Palestinian currency in use in ancient Palestinian times?

The Ottoman Para. Roman currency was largely used earlier, and no one is entirely sure what the Assyrians used (there's a debate going on about that).

What was their capital city?

Shifted around, century after century, but that depends mostly on to what extent the area was unified. For example, during the brief period of unity imposed by the crusaders it could be said that Jerusalem was the "capitol" of Palestine, at least insofar as the "Kingdom of Jerusalem" encompassed the largest chunk of modern day Israel/Palestine. Later, under the Ottomans, it was divided up into several smaller regions ruled by separate administrators.

In ancient times, Palestine was unified under Hebrew control for a relatively brief period before fragmenting again into two and then several smaller Kingdoms. Judaism in its modern form didn't exist at the time, though, and the Hebrews as an ethnic group was one of several that inhabited the region.

What type of government did the ancient Palestinians have?

Monarchy.

Have there ever been archaeological digs of ancient Palestinian sites, and have any Palestinian artefacts been dug up to prove they had roots in this land?

Yes. In fact some of the towns in the modern West Bank have written census records that go back as far as the Seljuk Empire, almost 1000 years ago.

Did they have any patriarchs in ancient times that even today their final resting places are known?

Depends here on how you define "patriarchs" but the burial sites of famous regional rulers over the past 3000 years have been identified in the region.

What other proof do they posses that they were the original inhabitants of that land before 1400 years ago?

"1400 years ago" is irrelevant. Other people were living in that land before the Hebrews moved into it and they were still living there when the Hebrews ruled it. Their descendents were also still living there when the Romans ruled it, when the Christians ruled it, when the Seljuks ruled it, when the Ottomans ruled it, and when the British ruled it.

Besides which, Judaism is a RELIGION, not a distinct ethnic group. If we're allowing theistic groups to make land claims, technically that entire region belongs to the Neo-Pagans.

 

[iolo]

They stole the land. What don't you understand about that?

They stole what fucking land!!! Tell me. What was the Palestinian currency in use in ancient Palestinian times? What was their capital city? What type of government did the ancient Palestinians have? Have there ever been archaeological digs of ancient Palestinian sites, and have any Palestinian artefacts been dug up to prove they had roots in this land? Did they have any patriarchs in ancient times that even today their final resting places are known? What other proof do they posses that they were the original inhabitants of that land before 1400 years ago?

As you know, the Zionists have no legal right to be there, and are murdering the native population. Why did Yanks fight Hitler if they accept this?

 

[Jayjay]

Do we see Jewish teens going around murdering Palestinians?

As a matter of fact, we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_and_murder_of_Mohammed_Abu_Khdeir

Anyway, it's off-topic. Derec's post made it sound like he thinks only Palestinian kids are being taught to share their parent's bigotry and hate. That's simply not true.

One case--and it wasn't done by teens.

Three of the six suspects were minors. It is also FAR from the only case, it is merely the best publicized one in the western press.

And worse, there are Israeli settlers killing Palestinians and getting away with it. Can you imagine what would happen if a Palestinian gang burned an Israeli family alive? Israel would go totally bonkers and roll in the army and raid every house in West Bank until they found the killers, and then they'd bulldoze their homes and the homes of everyone even remotely connected to them as an example.

But when settlers do it, the Israeli police probably doesn't even put down their donuts. And if by some accident they do catch the perpetrators (as they did in Abu Kheidr's case where there was surveillance footage), they certainly wouldn't bulldoze their houses or bother to investigate the people or organizations who instigated the violence.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But when settlers do it, the Israeli police probably doesn't even put down their donuts...

Unless the settlers attack other Jews.

 

[angelo]

They stole what fucking land!!! Tell me. What was the Palestinian currency in use in ancient Palestinian times? What was their capital city? What type of government did the ancient Palestinians have? Have there ever been archaeological digs of ancient Palestinian sites, and have any Palestinian artefacts been dug up to prove they had roots in this land? Did they have any patriarchs in ancient times that even today their final resting places are known? What other proof do they posses that they were the original inhabitants of that land before 1400 years ago?

Those are all good questions. You should look around for answers. You can start with Jericho if you'd like, where the archeological record indicates continuous inhabitation for at least 9,000 years, and perhaps as much as 12,000 years. Jenin, Nablus, and Hebron have also been continuously inhabited for thousands of years. Also, don't overlook religious conversion and inter-faith marriages as a source of Muslims and Christians in the Jewish homeland. That happened a lot.

Anyway, it wasn't the indigenous Jewish population that was stealing land. It was Zionist immigrants from Europe who decided they had more right to the Middle East than the people who actually lived there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people

What isn't understood from this easiest or sources about the origins of Palestinians?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) The violence would not be "nominal". Their stated goal is extirpation, nothing suggests they would settle for less.

There's a shit ton of evidence they would settle for less than the extirpation of Jews. There is so much evidence they would gladly accept their own state based on the 1967 borders with a few land swaps, joint control of aquifers, natural resources, borders, and airspace, that arguing otherwise makes you look silly.

When offered 67 + land swaps they walked out, they didn't even counter-offer.

2) The violence predates any Israeli actions whatsoever and thus can't be due to any actions of Israel. Thus any explanation that blames it on Israeli actions is categorically false.

The violence predates the actual formation of the State of Israel. But it does not predate the actions taken in order to form the State of Israel. It does not predate Plan Dalet, the massacre at Deir Yassin, the bombing campaigns, the riots, the kidnappings, the murders, etc. Thus, any word play that attempts to substitute Israeli for Zionist is an attempt to obfuscate and mislead.

I guess you paid no attention to that newspaper I linked. It was nearly 20 years before the formation of Israel.

3) Look at the fate of Jews in Islamist territory. It's been extirpation. Why should we expect anything different this time.

One of the standard definitions of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Jews in Islamist lands has been tried repeatedly, the result is always the same.

Factually and historically incorrect.

You know perfectly well the reason there were Jews in the Middle East at the beginning of the 20th century is because they had been living peacefully with their Muslim and Christian neighbors under the Ottomans for centuries. You know that Jews in Turkey flourished under Muslim rule while Jews in Europe were being treated horribly by Christians. You know this. So forget about peddling that blather about how Jews have to keep the non-Jews under military occupation because it's just not possible for them to live otherwise. That bit of Zionist propaganda is demonstrably false.

Peace does not mean total annihilation of the other side. It doesn't even mean victory. It means two sides agree to stop fighting, and then they do it.

1) There weren't really any Islamist states at the time.

2) The Jews only lived reasonably peacefully in Muslim lands because they existed as second-class citizens. When the Jews in Israel rebelled most of the rest were extirpated.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In every war there are isolated incidents where both sides massacre innocents. The fire bombing of Dresden comes to mind. US troops in Vietnam another.

They stole the land. What don't you understand about that?

Repeating it ad-nauseum doesn't make it true.

The only actual land theft was by the Arabs, not the Jews.

The formation of Israel changed the government of the land, it didn't change the ownership of the land itself. If you owned a plot of land you still owned a plot of land. Now, there was land lost when people sided with the Arabs and left--then weren't allowed back without agreeing to be peaceful.

Now, there was a lot of actual land loss in the other direction--most Jews in Arab lands lost their land and anything else they couldn't quickly pack up and take with them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Three of the six suspects were minors. It is also FAR from the only case, it is merely the best publicized one in the western press.

Most of the cases are false. When something bad happens in the West Bank it's often blamed on price tag attacks from the settlers--even when it should be obvious that that makes no sense.

Inflammatory and from Haaretz, your first assumption should be that it's false.

Why do you always assume that your own personal biases are reliable enough that everyone else should share them?

I'm saying that Haaretz is not a credible source.

 

[bilby]

No. Iran does not share a border with Israel, and the Iranian military are not able to overfly Iraq in order to get there, nor do they have the capability to get there by sea.

Iran may be sponsoring and assisting non-Iranian groups who are fighting Israel, but only someone who was deliberately trying to be inflammatory would describe that state of affairs with the bald statement "Iran is already attacking Israel".

The use of proxy troops doesn't make it not attacking as far as I'm concerned.

I realise that; hence my observation that your position is inflammatory.

When you seek to view one side only in the best possible light, and the other side in the worst, the only conclusion you can reach is that a war of annihilation is imperative.

Those who seek to apply an equal standard to both sides are able to envisage a non-genocidal solution. And it is a necessary first step toward any solution that everyone can envisage the existence of a solution.

You, sir, are part of the problem; that might be excusable were your own life in danger, but as it is not, it isn't.

 

[untermensche]

The only actual land theft was by the Arabs, not the Jews.

You can say "Jews" because the only people with any real power in Israel are Jews. It is a religious state in action.

But Israel has been stealing land non-stop for the past few decades.

To deny it is simply to lie. To be dismissed as an ignorant know nothing.

 

[Draconis]

I don't suppose it really matters whether Netanyahu has lost his mind or not. It's getting pretty mindless thereabouts anyway.

 

[Axulus]

The only actual land theft was by the Arabs, not the Jews.

You can say "Jews" because the only people with any real power in Israel are Jews. It is a religious state in action.

But Israel has been stealing land non-stop for the past few decades.

To deny it is simply to lie. To be dismissed as an ignorant know nothing.

Here is a graphic to show the loss:

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only actual land theft was by the Arabs, not the Jews.

You can say "Jews" because the only people with any real power in Israel are Jews. It is a religious state in action.

But Israel has been stealing land non-stop for the past few decades.

To deny it is simply to lie. To be dismissed as an ignorant know nothing.

Repeating this doesn't make it true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You can say "Jews" because the only people with any real power in Israel are Jews. It is a religious state in action.

But Israel has been stealing land non-stop for the past few decades.

To deny it is simply to lie. To be dismissed as an ignorant know nothing.

Here is a graphic to show the loss:

Yeah, that piece of widely-repeated deception.

The early maps show the land belonging to "Palestine"--when in reality the vast majority of it belonged to the government, it was not individually owned.

The 47 map treats the government going from Arab to Jewish as a transfer of land. Nobody's land changed hands in that!

The 48-49 map shows areas in Palestinian hands--when in reality at that point there were no lands under Palestinian control.