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Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

Tom Sawyer said:
Is there somebody else who can give an answer to the question I'm asking instead of ignoring it to bitch about the Ukranian government?
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I'm not an expert but my guess would be that it would cost more money to fly around that area so they took the gamble and lost.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
Ya, that's my question - why would they think that and wait until now to avoid the area?

If I hear on the news that there are warring gangs shooting at white SUVs on Dundas St, I'm going to take my black Prius fifteen minutes out of my way and drive along the Queensway. I'm not going to say "Well, it seems they only intend to shoot at white SUVs, so I have nothing to worry about and don't need to take a detour". If someone's shooting at cars, I will keep my car out of the fucking area. I'm not going to wait until after one of the gangs accidentally shoots up a Ford Focus before avoiding the place.

How is "There are people firing missiles at planes around there" not sufficient reason in and of itself to fly a loop around the place instead of going over it?
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The Iranian airliner that the Vincennes shot down was on a regular flight over its regular route, despite the war, confident that because they were squawking 'I'm Civilian' on their transponder, then any combatants would not choose to shoot at them.

Whoops.

It'd be more like if you thought your 'gang colors' on your Prius would be respected by both gangs.
Or really, if you boss thought your commuter bus had sufficient gang colors showing that the gangs would leave you alone, he would not authorize you to use extra fuel to go completely around the neighborhood. I'm sure some of the pilots wanted to avoid any shooting, but the guys who decided asked, Just how dangerous is it? and Well, have they shot any buses?
 
Nexus said:
I'm not an expert but my guess would be that it would cost more money to fly around that area so they took the gamble and lost.
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Ya, that's kind of what I was thinking but was hoping that someone could provide a more rational explanation and it wasn't just because they suck that badly and now hundreds of people are dead because of their stupidity.

And because of the Ukranian government's commitment to evil, of course.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
barbos said:
What are you talking about?
Of course they (airlines) all now know that's fucking dangerous. But before that it was responsibility of the ukrainian government to make a call.
After all, they are the ones who are in control. If what they now say is true then they should have closed their air space the moment they learned that rebels have Buk.
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Is there somebody else who can give an answer to the question I'm asking instead of ignoring it to bitch about the Ukranian government?
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I answered your question. Airline(s) are not responsible for this disaster.
 
Plot thickens, apparently Putin was flying in the vicinity (40 minutes later) and some say Ukrainians were trying to shoot him.
That's some serious shit.
 
Jimmy, I'm blaming you!!!! :picking_a_fight: I guess Israel decided that they couldn't waste a good crisis, so they have now launched a ground assault into Gaza.


Poor ISIS, with the Ukraine and Israel heating up, they just can't get any headlines. And who cares about that other corner...Afghanistan.
 
barbos said:
Plot thickens, apparently Putin was flying in the vicinity (40 minutes later) and some say Ukrainians were trying to shoot him.
That's some serious shit.
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Sorry, but you are reaching. The plane was shot down over area that is controlled by the Russian wannabees. The wannabees have the Buk (Ukranian's don't). They've already shot down two previous aircraft with it. And now it appears that intelligence have intercepted wannabees bragging about shooting down the aircraft. It appears that they thought that it was a warplane.
 
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, those who truly believe would know that Jesus would have been fully aware of this tragedy yesterday - indeed a long time before it even happened - pity he didn't let somebody know in time to avert the whole thing.
 
So this is the latest:

The Malaysian plane was was mistaken for the resurrected dragon that St. George slew, luckily the Ukrainian Pterodactyl Squad saw its ribbon of gold and black and shot that mutha down.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders, why the fuck was the plane flying over Ukranian airspace in the first place?

It's a hot war zone where combatants have been shooting down planes for at least a couple of weeks. Shouldn't standard operating procedure be to add a couple of hours to the flight time to loop around the area?
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Infantry SAMs are not capable of hitting a jetliner at altitude. The bigger ones have motors that can lift them about 2 miles up. The lowest cruise I have ever been on in a jetliner is over 5 miles up and that was a short hop flight. Typical is 6 to 7 miles up. Things like the Stinger would only be a threat if the shooter were in the Himalayas. (And most of that area is no-go for passenger jets anyway due to the requirement of being able to get down to safe altitude before the passenger's oxygen supply runs out.)
 
barbos said:
Harry_Bosch said:
All the info that I see states that the rebels have the Buk system (supplied by russia) while Ukraine does not. The Buk goes up to 71,000 feet. You are saying the opposite. What need are you watching?
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All the Info coming from most likely guilty party (Ukraine) states that.

Besides, have you seen that fucking Buk system? It is a 3 big trucks an it has to operated by a bunch of people who know what they are doing.
Regardless what you think of Putin he is not a complete idiot to give it to rebels.
So it's 90% ukrainian forces, and 9% rebels which somehow got a hold of the complete Buk system and somehow managed to use it.
and 1% Russians trying to shoot Ukrainian plane and hitting Boeing instead. But I am really too generous here, Russia does not need to do that.
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Which is one reason we say that the "rebels" are Russian troops.
 
I may be a little early, but I'm calling it: Ukrainian rebels shot down the aircraft with Soviet built and delivered Buk missile system. It further appears that the rebels thought that they were shooting at a military jet. Obviously, Putin never should have given such sophisticated weapon to bozos with no training. Putin is to blame. Now is a very dangerous time. It's pretty damn easy to fool Russian citizens that a conspiracy against Putin is happening. Putin can either escalate to create confusion, or do the right thing, back down, deescalate the situation, and quit arming the seperatists.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
barbos said:
I think it's responsibility of the state to close their space for air travel.
If Ukrainian government knew it was dangerous (which they now claim they knew) they should have closed their airspace.
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That's not a reply that's related to the question ... and it's an especially hypocritical thing to post immediately after chastising someone else for finding a way to blame the Russians for it, but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about.

Right now, all the airlines are saying that they're going to fly around the area, so they clearly have the ability to make this decision on their own and don't need to wait for somebody to close the airspace. I don't get how the information available to them before this happened was not sufficient in and of itself to have had them make that decision a couple of weeks ago.
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I agree, and I think they should be held responsible for gross negligence and be sued by the families of the victims.
 
Jolly_Penguin said:
Tom Sawyer said:
That's not a reply that's related to the question ... and it's an especially hypocritical thing to post immediately after chastising someone else for finding a way to blame the Russians for it, but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about.

Right now, all the airlines are saying that they're going to fly around the area, so they clearly have the ability to make this decision on their own and don't need to wait for somebody to close the airspace. I don't get how the information available to them before this happened was not sufficient in and of itself to have had them make that decision a couple of weeks ago.
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I agree, and I think they should be held responsible for gross negligence and be sued by the families of the victims.
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I heard that before today Malaysian Airlines was close to bankruptcy. I doubt that they'll last more than two months after this.
 
The ICAO are responsible for making the call as to what areas are not safe for commercial operations. Few airlines will choose a more expensive route in the absence of an ICAO directive to avoid the cheaper one.
 
How sickening. That nearly 300 people died for an 'oops' moment.

I feel so so sorry for the families of the victims and can only hope the poor passengers never knew what hit them. RIP
 
So what are all those right wingers who were willing to suck Putin's dick to spite Obama going to say now?
 
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