Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Ford]

So let me see if I've got you Russian guys right on this one...

The plane clearly crashed. You don't dispute that.

Why it crashed? Your explanations range from no apparent reason to a sinister plot from Kiev to make Putin look bad. No Russians could possibly be involved.

Anything which points to Russian complicity is faked.

Anything which removes Ukrainian culpability is likewise faked.

If - and this is a big if - there was a missile involved, there was no way in your minds that anyone even remotely associated with Moscow could have possibly been behind it, because Russia is the good guy in all of this and they cannot have possibly been responsible for the murder of nearly 300 civilians. Russians just don't do that sort of thing.


Right?

 

[bilby]

When faced with the choice between an overly complex and intricate conspiracy and a simple, stupid fuck up, I go with the fuck up.

I prefer the approach where we look at the evidence and try to put it together, but that's just me.

And the evidence is that
1. It appears the plane was diverted.
2. There is no evidence that eastern rebels had the kind of rocket launcher required.

You can't hand wave these things away and rely on a youtube video, and call your explanation simple.

There is no evidence that the plane was diverted; the crash location (location of the Emergency Locator Beacon), as reported by Malaysia Airlines at 48 degrees 7 minutes and 23 seconds North; and 38 degrees 31 minutes and 33 seconds East, is just to the North of airway L980, which was the route lodged by MAS in their flight plan. The distance between the airway and the crash site is well within what would be expected given that the debris has to fall from FL350 (about 35,000 feet, or more than six miles up); a minor deviation to the north, within the airway, might well occur for weather avoidance*, but at that altitude, the difference in position to a SAM battery on the ground would be completely irrelevant.

Of course, if you a) have no clue about aviation, and b) are a conspiracy theorist, then every detail is hard evidence for whatever crazy idea you want to spout. But the facts most assuredly don't support your theory.

This is the flight plan as filed (I have bolded the relevant sector, on airway L980 between PEKTIT and TAMAK waypoints, cruising speed 480 Knots at Flight Level 350):

(FPL-MAS17-IS
-B772/H-SDFGHIJ3J5M1RWXY/LB1D1
-EHAM1000
-N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350 L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750 ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH A464 DAKUS DCT
-WMKK1137 WMSA WMKP
-EET/EDGG0017 EDWW0023 EDUU0036 EPWW0052 UKLV0135 UKBV0153 UKDV0225 URRV0255 UATT0347 UTAK0411 UTAA0432 UTAV0507 OAKX0518 OPLR0601 OPKR0616 VIDF0631 VABF0725 VECF0747 VYYF0926 VOMF0930 VTBB1013 WMFC1051 REG/9MMRD PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S2 SEL/QREJ DOF/140717 RMK/ACASII EQUIPPED)

This link http://skyvector.com/?ll=48.13823301339375,38.54635620414529&chart=304&zoom=2&plan=F.UK.PEKIT:F.UK.TAGAN:F.UK.GANRA:G.48.10180663831042,38.40454101859642:G.48.123056,38.525833 goes to an interactive airways chart showing that sector of the route; for illustative purposes I have added an arbitrary departure from the airway at N48°6.11' E38°24.27' and ending at the ELB location, which lies about 5 nautical miles from the L980 airway, around half way between the airway and BELOL waypoint.

Somebody shot it down - there are several people in the area with the capability to do so.

Conspiracy theories that ignore these widely published and undeniable facts deserve nothing but derision.


* A SIGMET (weather warning) for the region is still in place, warning of thunderstorms in the entire Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region:

WSUR35 UKDV 180201 UKDV SIGMET 2 VALID 180300/180600 UKDV- UKDV DNIPROPETROVSK FIR EMBD TSGR FCST OVER WHOLE DNIPROPETROVSK FIR TOP FL350/400 MOV N 15KMH

 

[barbos]

Well, if these are actors then they are damn good ones to produce such a genuine looking recording.
I am talking about parts of conversation which directly discuss Malaysian plane of course.
Garanin part seems does not have relation to this particular plane.

No one else can talk but good actors? The video just has some people talking.

Not many people could act, especially on such a short order.
Rebels shoot it, there can be very little doubt about that.

 

[tupac chopra]

So let me see if I've got you Russian guys right on this one...

This should be interesting

The plane clearly crashed. You don't dispute that.

yup

Why it crashed? Your explanations range from no apparent reason to a sinister plot from Kiev to make Putin look bad. No Russians could possibly be involved.

You obviously didn't read my last post where I said ..."Take that video out of the picture and all we know is a flight was probably shot down with the kind of hardware that Kiev or Russia had but that the rebels did not have."

Anything which points to Russian complicity is faked.

What do you have that points to Russia?

Anything which removes Ukrainian culpability is likewise faked.

Nope.

If - and this is a big if - there was a missile involved,

No, a missile was involved.

there was no way in your minds that anyone even remotely associated with Moscow could have possibly been behind it,

Russia had the hardware, so did Kiev.

because Russia is the good guy in all of this and they cannot have possibly been responsible for the murder of nearly 300 civilians. Russians just don't do that sort of thing.

Well there is little doubt that compared to Obama and the neocons Putin is a man of peace. Maybe just for practical reasons, but he is. Everything he has done WRT Ukraine has been to seek a peaceful solution. Russia is a country struggling to re -emerge, they can't afford a war. Putin knows that time is on his side.
America lives for war, it always seeks war. It has it's whole life. All America does is lurch from one disastrous war to another, all of which they start.

Right?

Thats a joke...right?

 

[tupac chopra]

No one else can talk but good actors? The video just has some people talking.

Not many people could act, especially on such a short order.
Rebels shoot it, there can be very little doubt about that.

Are you crazy? Not many people can read a few lines? bahahah

 

[tupac chopra]

delete

 

[barbos]

No, I am not crazy.
First you have to compose these lines, second you need to read it convincingly and read it in the voice of known people, and third you have couple of hours to do all that. And keep in mind you know very little about passengers on the plane so, so you can't just pull "Indonesian student from University such and such" out of your ass.
But good luck anyway

 

[barbos]

Rebels shoot it, there can be very little doubt about that.

Actually, I have to take it back, there is a little bit of doubt.
Rebels are merely thinking they shot it, it does not necessarily mean they actually did it.
It's possible they were shooting at something (probably with low altitude stuff) but something else actually hit that plane.

 

[tupac chopra]

Rebels shoot it, there can be very little doubt about that.

Actually, I have to take it back, there is a little bit of doubt.
Rebels are merely thinking they shot it, it does not necessarily mean they actually did it.

Wake up please there are no rebels who think they brought down the plane. Let me repeat that in case you missed it. THERE ARE NO REBELS WHO THOUGHT THEY BROUGHT DOWN THE PLANE.
All we have is an obviously fake youtube video, which you some how want to believe is real. Wake up!

 

[tupac chopra]

No, I am not crazy.
First you have to compose these lines, second you need to read it convincingly and read it in the voice of known people, and third you have couple of hours to do all that. And keep in mind you know very little about passengers on the plane so, so you can't just pull "Indonesian student from University such and such" out of your ass.

Look the USA has been trying for months to get Putin to step into the Ukraine. Putin knows it is all a trap, so he has been refusing to take the bait, even when the Nazis in Kiev have been killing civilians. Putin understand that Americans Britons Australians and Canadians are stupid fools too concerned with the superficial things of life to even take notice. America from day one via the coup they orchestrated have been trying to demonise Putin and Russia. At EVERY SINGLE POINT, Putin has suggested a peaceful solution. Every single point.

The only question is for how long can America pass itself off as the good guy while it continues its campaign of war and murder around the globe. The facts are incredible. yet people especially Americans refuse to believe that they are actually the "bad guys"

 

[barbos]

Actually, I have to take it back, there is a little bit of doubt.
Rebels are merely thinking they shot it, it does not necessarily mean they actually did it.

Wake up please there are no rebels who think they brought down the plane. Let me repeat that in case you missed it. THERE ARE NO REBELS WHO THOUGHT THEY BROUGHT DOWN THE PLANE.
All we have is an obviously fake youtube video, which you some how want to believe is real. Wake up!

how do you know it's fake?

 

[Jayjay]

Actually, I have to take it back, there is a little bit of doubt.
Rebels are merely thinking they shot it, it does not necessarily mean they actually did it.

Wake up please there are no rebels who think they brought down the plane. Let me repeat that in case you missed it. THERE ARE NO REBELS WHO THOUGHT THEY BROUGHT DOWN THE PLANE.
All we have is an obviously fake youtube video, which you some how want to believe is real. Wake up!

There is also the bragging about downing the plane on Russian social media, since removed. That intercepted phone call is not the only piece of evidence.

Again, simple fuckup on part of the rebels is far more likely than the elaborate conspiracy theory that you are suggesting.

 

[barbos]

No, I am not crazy.
First you have to compose these lines, second you need to read it convincingly and read it in the voice of known people, and third you have couple of hours to do all that. And keep in mind you know very little about passengers on the plane so, so you can't just pull "Indonesian student from University such and such" out of your ass.

Look the USA has been trying for months to get Putin to step into the Ukraine. Putin knows it is all a trap, so he has been refusing to take the bait, even when the Nazis in Kiev have been killing civilians. Putin understand that Americans Britons Australians and Canadians are stupid fools too concerned with the superficial things of life to even take notice. America from day one via the coup they orchestrated have been trying to demonise Putin and Russia. At EVERY SINGLE POINT, Putin has suggested a peaceful solution. Every single point.

The only question is for how long can America pass itself off as the good guy while it continues its campaign of war and murder around the globe. The facts are incredible. yet people especially Americans refuse to believe that they are actually the "bad guys"

You are confusing two questions - who shot the plane down and who is responsible for that.
The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible does not contradict the fact that rebells actually shot it down.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible...

That's right. I forgot that Obama and the CIA conspired for this whole Crimea thing to happen just like it did.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Wake up please there are no rebels who think they brought down the plane. Let me repeat that in case you missed it. THERE ARE NO REBELS WHO THOUGHT THEY BROUGHT DOWN THE PLANE.
All we have is an obviously fake youtube video, which you some how want to believe is real. Wake up!

how do you know it's fake?

It being real would be devastating to his argument. Therefore, it can't be real.

 

[barbos]

The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible...

That's right. I forgot that Obama and the CIA conspired for this whole Crimea thing to happen just like it did.

Things don't always turn out the way you conspire them.
You think US conspired Iraq to be clusterfuck it is now?

 

[barbos]

By the way, on that audio Bes was talking about different plane because Enakievo is a 100 km from the crash site.
So audio was compiled from unrelated events.
Also, calling him a russian citizen is a bit disingenuous, because he was born in then Ukraine, served in SU and Russia, retired and returned to Ukraine few years ago.

 

[Ford]

The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible...

That's right. I forgot that Obama and the CIA conspired for this whole Crimea thing to happen just like it did.

Don't forget, for these guys Obama is actually running things in Ukraine, and trying desperately to bring Vladimir "Ghandi" Putin into a conflict when he clearly would rather attack his enemies with sunshine and rainbows.

 

[barbos]

Did CIA fabricate evidence of WMD in Iraq?

 

[Nexus]

Did CIA fabricate evidence of WMD in Iraq?

No, they certainly had them but Putin was able to remove them before US forces could find them. He did this to discredit one of our greatest presidents in history George W Bush.