Obama has done it now - Nine Shot dead in church

[fast]

[It's] far easier to scare them off with a negative attitude.

Some might very well be surprised to learn that the consequences of our properly-timed negative attitudes can (at times) have an uncanny opposite effect, especially early on in a developing relationship.

 

[credoconsolans]

It might get dismissed as insensitive but I think it's a fair question: why didn't they overpower him while he was reloading?

Because reality is surprisingly unlike TV and movies in more ways than most people seem to be aware of.

I'm wondering why they didn't all escape into the ventilation system while his back was turned.

It's not necessarily a stupid question.

As Derec pointed out, others do the same. There was an incident in front of the White House some years ago where a man opened up with a gun, and a couple of the fleeing bystanders saw that man was reloading and chose that moment to turn and rush him and take him down. One of those men was even a father of a young child on the spot, I think.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They were not at fault for the crime itself, but it is nevertheless a legitimate question whether they could have defended themselves better.

I do not remember you raising this in the Aurora Shooting thread. This shit is disgusting.

P.S.: The church service is on CNN right now. It's supposed to be a somber, tragic occasion. Couldn't the preacher man lay off the bombastic, over-the-top "black preacher" shtick just for one day in respect for the victims and adopt a more respectful one?

Dude, are you trolling?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because reality is surprisingly unlike TV and movies in more ways than most people seem to be aware of.

I'm wondering why they didn't all escape into the ventilation system while his back was turned.

It's not necessarily a stupid question.

It is a very stupid question. Anyone that has not been in a fire fight has absolutely no business asking such a question. It is absurd, it is ridiculous. It has no basis in anything other than attempting to blame the victims. Derec has justified the use of fatal force by police in cases where the victim may not have been armed. Yet, now Derec is demanding the people actually being shot at should have just taken the guy down?

His demands are absolutely shocking and reprehensible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He's a simple murderer.

I'm at a loss to understand why there are so many people working so hard to minimize this crime.

The guy walked into a church and killed nine defenseless human beings for no other reason than that they were black.

That's a bit more than simple murder.

In the famous "Boston Massacre" of 1770, five people were killed.

The famous "St. Valentines Day Massacre" in 1929 had seven fatalities.


But nine people gunned down in a church? Well that's just a simple murder. Nothing to see here, folks! Move along.

This is 9 murders. Execute the guy. Don't make it into terrorism, though.

- - - Updated - - -

Try to start a war isn't a war crime.

He's a simple murderer. I'll also agree with hate crime. Not terrorism, though.

He was trying to start a race war... that is a political goal.

Just because a crime had a political goal doesn't make it terrorism.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Because reality is surprisingly unlike TV and movies in more ways than most people seem to be aware of.

I'm wondering why they didn't all escape into the ventilation system while his back was turned.

It's not necessarily a stupid question.

Yes it is. A dozen people in bible study are not a group predisposed to charging armed gunmen.

As Derec pointed out, others do the same. There was an incident in front of the White House some years ago where a man opened up with a gun, and a couple of the fleeing bystanders saw that man was reloading and chose that moment to turn and rush him and take him down. One of those men was even a father of a young child on the spot, I think.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

Who was shot that night?

• A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.
• The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.
• Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.
• Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop. Sanders died while trying to save his 87-year-old aunt, Susie Jackson. When Roof aimed his gun at Jackson, Sanders asked him to point the gun at him instead, their family member, Kristen Washington told the New York Times. Roof then said, “It doesn’t matter, I’m going to shoot all of you.” Sanders stood between Roof and his aunt to save her, and the first bullet struck him. He was the youngest victim of the shooting, and his aunt, the oldest.
• Myra Thompson, 59, was the wife of reverend Anthony Thompson, who is a vicar at Holy Trinity REC.
• A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.
• Daniel Simmons, a ministerial staff member at the church, died in the shooting, his daughter, Arcelia Simmons confirmed to ABC News.
• Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, was also one of the victims of the shooting, coroner Rae Wooten confirmed at a press conference on Thursday. The minister was a mother of four daughters. She sang in the church’s choir and spoke at the pulpit with Rev. Pinckney, the Post and Courier reported.
• Susie Jackson, 87, was also a victim of the attack, the coroner confirmed. She was a member of the Eastern Light Chapter No. 360 Order of the Eastern Star, according to a community activist on Twitter. Her nephew, Tywanza Sanders, died when he dived in between her and the shooter to save her. Jackson’s cousin, Ethel Lance, was also a victim of the attack.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasime...of-the-charleston-church-shooting#.eikK6xK9eV

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

 

[credoconsolans]

It's not necessarily a stupid question.

Yes it is. A dozen people in bible study are not a group predisposed to charging armed gunmen.

As Derec pointed out, others do the same. There was an incident in front of the White House some years ago where a man opened up with a gun, and a couple of the fleeing bystanders saw that man was reloading and chose that moment to turn and rush him and take him down. One of those men was even a father of a young child on the spot, I think.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

Who was shot that night?

• A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.
• The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.
• Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.
• Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop. Sanders died while trying to save his 87-year-old aunt, Susie Jackson. When Roof aimed his gun at Jackson, Sanders asked him to point the gun at him instead, their family member, Kristen Washington told the New York Times. Roof then said, “It doesn’t matter, I’m going to shoot all of you.” Sanders stood between Roof and his aunt to save her, and the first bullet struck him. He was the youngest victim of the shooting, and his aunt, the oldest.
• Myra Thompson, 59, was the wife of reverend Anthony Thompson, who is a vicar at Holy Trinity REC.
• A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.
• Daniel Simmons, a ministerial staff member at the church, died in the shooting, his daughter, Arcelia Simmons confirmed to ABC News.
• Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, was also one of the victims of the shooting, coroner Rae Wooten confirmed at a press conference on Thursday. The minister was a mother of four daughters. She sang in the church’s choir and spoke at the pulpit with Rev. Pinckney, the Post and Courier reported.
• Susie Jackson, 87, was also a victim of the attack, the coroner confirmed. She was a member of the Eastern Light Chapter No. 360 Order of the Eastern Star, according to a community activist on Twitter. Her nephew, Tywanza Sanders, died when he dived in between her and the shooter to save her. Jackson’s cousin, Ethel Lance, was also a victim of the attack.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasime...of-the-charleston-church-shooting#.eikK6xK9eV

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

Someone who wanted to live. You underestimate people. We've had PR people, software salesmen, and flight attendants try to overcome murderous hijackers.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I'm at a loss to understand why there are so many people working so hard to minimize this crime.

The guy walked into a church and killed nine defenseless human beings for no other reason than that they were black.

That's a bit more than simple murder.

In the famous "Boston Massacre" of 1770, five people were killed.

The famous "St. Valentines Day Massacre" in 1929 had seven fatalities.


But nine people gunned down in a church? Well that's just a simple murder. Nothing to see here, folks! Move along.

This is 9 murders. Execute the guy. Don't make it into terrorism, though.

- - - Updated - - -

Try to start a war isn't a war crime.

He's a simple murderer. I'll also agree with hate crime. Not terrorism, though.

He was trying to start a race war... that is a political goal.

Just because a crime had a political goal doesn't make it terrorism.

did the shooter have a personal motive to kill these people? did the shooter want the world to know he shot these people and that he did so because they were black and he felt black people needed to be stopped?

It's hard to agree that an act is not meant to terrorize when the person who committed the act and the community it was aim at both say it is. Federal authorities as we speak are investigating the crime as both a hate crime and an act of terror.

Loren, why is it so important to you personally that this not be called an act of terror when everyone involved says it is, including the shooter?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Yes it is. A dozen people in bible study are not a group predisposed to charging armed gunmen.

As Derec pointed out, others do the same. There was an incident in front of the White House some years ago where a man opened up with a gun, and a couple of the fleeing bystanders saw that man was reloading and chose that moment to turn and rush him and take him down. One of those men was even a father of a young child on the spot, I think.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

Who was shot that night?

• A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.
• The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.
• Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.
• Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop. Sanders died while trying to save his 87-year-old aunt, Susie Jackson. When Roof aimed his gun at Jackson, Sanders asked him to point the gun at him instead, their family member, Kristen Washington told the New York Times. Roof then said, “It doesn’t matter, I’m going to shoot all of you.” Sanders stood between Roof and his aunt to save her, and the first bullet struck him. He was the youngest victim of the shooting, and his aunt, the oldest.
• Myra Thompson, 59, was the wife of reverend Anthony Thompson, who is a vicar at Holy Trinity REC.
• A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.
• Daniel Simmons, a ministerial staff member at the church, died in the shooting, his daughter, Arcelia Simmons confirmed to ABC News.
• Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, was also one of the victims of the shooting, coroner Rae Wooten confirmed at a press conference on Thursday. The minister was a mother of four daughters. She sang in the church’s choir and spoke at the pulpit with Rev. Pinckney, the Post and Courier reported.
• Susie Jackson, 87, was also a victim of the attack, the coroner confirmed. She was a member of the Eastern Light Chapter No. 360 Order of the Eastern Star, according to a community activist on Twitter. Her nephew, Tywanza Sanders, died when he dived in between her and the shooter to save her. Jackson’s cousin, Ethel Lance, was also a victim of the attack.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasime...of-the-charleston-church-shooting#.eikK6xK9eV

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

Someone who wanted to live. You underestimate people. We've had PR people, software salesmen, and flight attendants try to overcome murderous hijackers.

You didn't answer the question. Who among this group should have led the charge? We aren't about hypothetical, but actuality. We are not talking about passengers on a plane with no where to run and time to plot and plan together. A dozen people, peaceful people engaged in worship, who without warning find among them a shooter and gunfire.

Who should have led? who should have coordinated? who should have planned? We know who was there, tell me who should have done what?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Simmons should have led the charge. Everyone was waiting for him and he choked, thus leading to all the deaths.

 

[Toni]

Yes it is. A dozen people in bible study are not a group predisposed to charging armed gunmen.

As Derec pointed out, others do the same. There was an incident in front of the White House some years ago where a man opened up with a gun, and a couple of the fleeing bystanders saw that man was reloading and chose that moment to turn and rush him and take him down. One of those men was even a father of a young child on the spot, I think.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

Who was shot that night?

• A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.
• The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.
• Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.
• Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop. Sanders died while trying to save his 87-year-old aunt, Susie Jackson. When Roof aimed his gun at Jackson, Sanders asked him to point the gun at him instead, their family member, Kristen Washington told the New York Times. Roof then said, “It doesn’t matter, I’m going to shoot all of you.” Sanders stood between Roof and his aunt to save her, and the first bullet struck him. He was the youngest victim of the shooting, and his aunt, the oldest.
• Myra Thompson, 59, was the wife of reverend Anthony Thompson, who is a vicar at Holy Trinity REC.
• A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.
• Daniel Simmons, a ministerial staff member at the church, died in the shooting, his daughter, Arcelia Simmons confirmed to ABC News.
• Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, was also one of the victims of the shooting, coroner Rae Wooten confirmed at a press conference on Thursday. The minister was a mother of four daughters. She sang in the church’s choir and spoke at the pulpit with Rev. Pinckney, the Post and Courier reported.
• Susie Jackson, 87, was also a victim of the attack, the coroner confirmed. She was a member of the Eastern Light Chapter No. 360 Order of the Eastern Star, according to a community activist on Twitter. Her nephew, Tywanza Sanders, died when he dived in between her and the shooter to save her. Jackson’s cousin, Ethel Lance, was also a victim of the attack.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasime...of-the-charleston-church-shooting#.eikK6xK9eV

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

Someone who wanted to live. You underestimate people. We've had PR people, software salesmen, and flight attendants try to overcome murderous hijackers.

You seem to be discounting the fight/flight instinct. Setting is also a factor.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

South Carolina has the death penalty. If convicted Roof deserves it.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Bronzeage]

They were not at fault for the crime itself, but it is nevertheless a legitimate question whether they could have defended themselves better.

They made no wrong decisions.

One can be a victim, carry no guilt for the crime and still have made wrong decisions.

The shooter is evil and TOTALLY at fault for EVERYTHING wrong and evil that happened that night and so is anyone who tries to make this in any way the fault of nine dead people in a bible study on a Wednesday night in Charleston SC.

Asking questions about whether the victims could have done something to defend themselves does not imply they were at fault for the crime.

P.S.: The church service is on CNN right now. It's supposed to be a somber, tragic occasion. Couldn't the preacher man lay off the bombastic, over-the-top "black preacher" shtick just for one day in respect for the victims and adopt a more respectful one?

We share this planet with many people and many cultures. You call this man's style of address a "shtick" as if it were a contrived performance, especially designed to offend you. I assure you, that was the farthest thing from his mind. As for respect, it makes me wonder if you have any concept of the meaning of the word when you say,

"it is nevertheless a legitimate question whether they could have defended themselves better."

There are cultures which think our white anglosaxon protestant up tight stiff upper lip never let them see you cry culture is a perversion of human nature and see our quiet somber funerals as showing a lack of care for our dead, as if we were taking out the trash and nothing more.

 

[Derec]

We share this planet with many people and many cultures. You call this man's style of address a "shtick" as if it were a contrived performance, especially designed to offend you. I assure you, that was the farthest thing from his mind. As for respect, it makes me wonder if you have any concept of the meaning of the word when you say,

I did not say it was 'especially designed to offend' me but it was most certainly a contrived performance. And one that did not fit the occasion.

There are cultures which think our white anglosaxon protestant up tight stiff upper lip never let them see you cry culture is a perversion of human nature and see our quiet somber funerals as showing a lack of care for our dead, as if we were taking out the trash and nothing more.

And if it's ok for them to critique WASP funerals, why can't I critique Reverend Overacting?

 

[RavenSky]

We share this planet with many people and many cultures. You call this man's style of address a "shtick" as if it were a contrived performance, especially designed to offend you. I assure you, that was the farthest thing from his mind. As for respect, it makes me wonder if you have any concept of the meaning of the word when you say,

I did not say it was 'especially designed to offend' me but it was most certainly a contrived performance. And one that did not fit the occasion.

I watched it. I did not see anything contrived or inappropriate

 

[Derec]

Yes it is. A dozen people in bible study are not a group predisposed to charging armed gunmen.

So much the worse because the death toll could have been far lower if they were.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

I made that caveat myself. Also, how many other people were in the room other than those that died?

A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.

45 year old is not old enough for self defense.

The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.

Obviously, neither is 41.

[*]Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.

Just because she was a librarian doesn't mean she was unable to rush a reloading perp. Also her age is not given.

[*]Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop.

I.e. a strapping young lad of 26.

[*]A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.

Sexton?

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

Any of them, except really old ones and children could have done it. In the Seattle case I posted earlier the reloading gunman was brought down by a student. The perp is 21 and does not look especially big or strong anyway.

 

[Ford]

So much the worse because the death toll could have been far lower if they were.

Well the next time a gunman comes into a meeting of the He-Man Woman Hater's Club and starts shooting, you feel free to run towards him, mmkay?

 

[Derec]

It is a very stupid question. Anyone that has not been in a fire fight has absolutely no business asking such a question.

How many firefights have you been in?

Derec has justified the use of fatal force by police in cases where the victim may not have been armed. Yet, now Derec is demanding the people actually being shot at should have just taken the guy down?

Those are perfectly mutually consistent positions. In both statements I recognize that an unarmed person can certainly be dangerous. Unarmed != harmless either offensively (i.e unarmed perps justifiably shot by police like Tony Robinson or Michael Brown) or defensively (people who overpower armed perps).

His demands are absolutely shocking and reprehensible.

It's not a demand. It was a question. And it's not like something like that hasn't happened before.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So much the worse because the death toll could have been far lower if they were.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

I made that caveat myself. Also, how many other people were in the room other than those that died?

A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.

45 year old is not old enough for self defense.

The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.

Obviously, neither is 41.

[*]Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.

Just because she was a librarian doesn't mean she was unable to rush a reloading perp. Also her age is not given.

[*]Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop.

I.e. a strapping young lad of 26.

[*]A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.

Sexton?

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

Any of them, except really old ones and children could have done it. In the Seattle case I posted earlier the reloading gunman was brought down by a student. The perp is 21 and does not look especially big or strong anyway.

*This post has been completely self-moderated as the appropriate response to properly categorize the post and poster would likely be deemed against Board protocol. As this poster does not wish to be banned, the post is self-moderated and all appropriate, though strongly worded statements regarding the character, needed viability, and worthiness of air usage of the quoted poster have been removed.*

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How many firefights have you been in?

I'm not asking the question! You are. You are asking why didn't someone do something.

Derec has justified the use of fatal force by police in cases where the victim may not have been armed. Yet, now Derec is demanding the people actually being shot at should have just taken the guy down?

Those are perfectly mutually consistent positions.

No, they aren't. Only in the twisted text of your post.

His demands are absolutely shocking and reprehensible.

It's not a demand. It was a question. And it's not like something like that hasn't happened before.

It is a demand. You are explicitly saying that fewer people would have died if someone had just done something. That is an absolute BS claim. There is monday morning QB'ing, but you have taken it to a vile level. I don't recall for a second you saying anything about this in the Aurora Theater shooting.