Obama has done it now - Nine Shot dead in church

[credoconsolans]

Someone who wanted to live. You underestimate people. We've had PR people, software salesmen, and flight attendants try to overcome murderous hijackers.

And in a case where it's clear the perp intends to kill them all there's no reason not to try to take him down. You don't really need strength, if enough people pile on they'll succeed.

Exactly.

Let me qualify my statement

"someone who wanted to live who was willing to fight for their life"

You can either lay there and be shot dead like a sheep or you can act. Your choice.

Yeah, it's scary, yeah it takes guts, yeah, not everyone is going to be able to do it, but since he reloaded FIVE times, people should have been catching on.

 

[Toni]

And in a case where it's clear the perp intends to kill them all there's no reason not to try to take him down. You don't really need strength, if enough people pile on they'll succeed.

Exactly.

Let me qualify my statement

"someone who wanted to live who was willing to fight for their life"

You can either lay there and be shot dead like a sheep or you can act. Your choice.

Yeah, it's scary, yeah it takes guts, yeah, not everyone is going to be able to do it, but since he reloaded FIVE times, people should have been catching on.

So tell us all about the time YOU defended yourself against an armed gunman.

Personally I want to hear from everybody who thinks these people who were murdered by an armed gunman in their church should have behaved while under attack, exactly how YOU yourself actually defended yourselves . None of this coulda woulda stuff: what have YOU personally done in a similar situation? Teach us, o brave ones!

 

[RavenSky]

The suggestion that they could have achieved anything in the time it took Roof to reload is a sick joke. Reality is nothing like you seem to imagine it to be.

And yet it has happened before.
US student disarms Seattle university killer gunman

And your continued insistence that these people "coulda, shoulda" is you AGAIN blaming black people for their own deaths.

You can insist that you are *just asking questions* but your positions are clear, and they are disgusting.

 

[bleubird]

Maybe I should put this in rants.However,WTF is with some members that must always take the side of the creepy bad guy.

 

[Derec]

Maybe I should put this in rants.However,WTF is with some members that must always take the side of the creepy bad guy.

Who is taking the side of "the creepy bad guy"?

- - - Updated - - -

And your continued insistence that these people "coulda, shoulda" is you AGAIN blaming black people for their own deaths.

No, it is not.

You can insist that you are *just asking questions* but your positions are clear, and they are disgusting.

The only thing disgusting here, other than the crime, is the attitude some people here have with any, even slight, disagreement.

 

[Toni]

Who is taking the side of "the creepy bad guy"?

- - - Updated - - -

And your continued insistence that these people "coulda, shoulda" is you AGAIN blaming black people for their own deaths.

No, it is not.

You can insist that you are *just asking questions* but your positions are clear, and they are disgusting.

The only thing disgusting here, other than the crime, is the attitude some people here have with any, even slight, disagreement.

Personally, the part I find really disgusting is the victim shaming/blaming that's going on here.

Also the lack of personal testimony as to the personal bravery under even vaguely similar situations by those who are so certain the victims coulda shoulda and THEY THE POSTER surely woulda in these circumstances.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And in a case where it's clear the perp intends to kill them all there's no reason not to try to take him down. You don't really need strength, if enough people pile on they'll succeed.

Exactly.

Let me qualify my statement

"someone who wanted to live who was willing to fight for their life"

You can either lay there and be shot dead like a sheep or you can act. Your choice.

Yeah, it's scary, yeah it takes guts, yeah, not everyone is going to be able to do it, but since he reloaded FIVE times, people should have been catching on.

How long did it take him to reload? How many bullets between reloading? What was his location relative to the other people?

 

[Toni]

And yet it has happened before.
US student disarms Seattle university killer gunman

All of my uncles were in active service in WWII. Two of my uncles, on separate occasions, were held up at gun point, in home invasions. One uncle was in his early 30's during that incident. His parents, my grandparents were home--it was their home in fact, when they were robbed at gunpoint on their farm. my unclewas still farm boy strong, accustomed to physical laborand proficient in the use of firearms and personal combat. He allowed the gunman to tie him up along with my grandparents to try to ensure their safety as best he could in the circumstances. He managed to flex enough that it wasn't a long struggle after the gunman left to free himself and my grandparents.

The other uncle, a life long hunter and farmer as well as a crack shot who won a lot of marksmanship contests, was far more proficient in the use of firearms and by the stories I heard growing up, did all right defending himself outside of war zones as well. He and my aunt were victims of an armed home invasion, with the gunman grabbing up my uncle's guns. My uncle thought he could take the guy down but the guy grabbed my uncle's rifle and shot at him, missing his head by inches.

Both uncles had been soldiers, trained in combat, were relatively young, fit, proficient in the use of firearms. The guns involved were not automatic weapons or even semi automatic. The ONLY thing that prevented their murders and along with them, the murders of my grandparents and aunt , was the fact that their attackers were looking to rob, not kill.

The ONLY thing.

So how many times have have you personally been attacked by a gunman?

EDITING because I was on my phone when I posted, hence lots of typos, some of which might be distracting. Edits are bolded to indicate editing, not for emphasis. Apologies all around.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Exactly.

Let me qualify my statement

"someone who wanted to live who was willing to fight for their life"

You can either lay there and be shot dead like a sheep or you can act. Your choice.

Yeah, it's scary, yeah it takes guts, yeah, not everyone is going to be able to do it, but since he reloaded FIVE times, people should have been catching on.

How long did it take him to reload? How many bullets between reloading? What was his location relative to the other people?

Obviously, according to pure conjecture, he did not have spare clips and left the ammunition locked in the trunk of his car parked blocks away. Each bullet had been sealed in plastic and numbered (cryptic code) for order of use. Unfortunately, the box had spilled out and he had to search for each bullet in order using the enigma cipher to locate each independently and in order. He then unpackaged each bullet from the wrapper carefully cutting the plastic coating as not to scratch the bullets. He then walked back into the church went into the restroom and relieved his bowels of his last meal of a Mountain Dew and Chick-Fill-A before resuming the rampage. .

Only an entire armed congregation, choir, clergy, and Sunday school could have prevented this. Please give in remembrance of the good guys who were not allowed to bring firearms into church.
__________

Bonus! The NRA goes Steampunk:
https://www.nrablog.com/articles/20...l-firearms-museum-unveils-unique-new-exhibit/

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And yet it has happened before.
US student disarms Seattle university killer gunman

All of my uncles were in active service in WWII. Two of my uncles, on separate occasions, were held up at gun point, in home invasions. One uncle was in his early 30's during that incident. His parents, my grandparents were home--it was their home in fact, when they were robbed st hun point on their farm. my incle was still farm boy strong, accustomed to physical lacor and proficient in the use of firearms and personal combat. he allowed the gunman to tie him up along with my grandparents to try to ensure their safety as best he could in the circumstances. He managed to flex enough that it wasnt a long struggle after the gunman left to free himself and my grandparents.

.The other uncle, a life long hunter and farmer as well as a crack shot who won a lot of marksmanship contests, was far more proficient in the use of firearms and by the stories I heard growing up, did all right defending himself outside of war zones as well. He and my aunt were victims of an armed home invasion, with the gunman grabbing up my uncle's guns. My uncle thought he could take the guy down but the guy grabbed my uncle's rifle and shot at him, missing his head by inches.

Both uncles had been soldiers, trained in combat, were relatively young, fit, proficient in the use of firearms. The guns involved were not automatic weapons or even semi automatic. The ONLY thing that prevented their murders and along with them, the murders of my grandparents and aunt , was the fact that their attackers were looking to rob, not kill.

The ONLY thing.

So how many times have have you personally been attacked by a gunman?

I've been in a couple of incidents. One was the disarming of a belligerent drunk done beautifully by a friend who simply asked, "that's a cool gun, what is it?" To which the drunk started talking about it. My friend said, "awesome, do you mind it I shoot it out in the field." The drunk gave it to him and he shot until the gun was empty and gave it back to the drunk who forgot why he needed to shoot my other friend. Now let's say somebody pulled a gun on the surly drunk, (1) how would he react is it more likely to escalate or deescalate the situation? (2) What about the other people in the adjoining room that have not noticed the firearm being waved aroud?

The other was a gun battle between two cars stopped at a red light. I was waiting on the corner for the light to change in the line of fire. It was in early July, so my immediate reaction was, kids and their fireworks. It wasn't until the car window cracked open that I knew it was a gun battle, but it was over in that instance and both cars sped away. Now let's say I had a gun and reacted (1) who was I to shoot and why? (2) and should I have shot being across the street from me was a crowded restaurant?

These "hero" scenarios probably happen about once in a million. Just look at the death of Joseph Robert Wilcox from the Las Vegas Mall shooting. He was in prime position to use his firearm, but didn't notice it was not a lone gunman situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Las_Vegas_shootings

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And in a case where it's clear the perp intends to kill them all there's no reason not to try to take him down. You don't really need strength, if enough people pile on they'll succeed.

Exactly.

Let me qualify my statement

"someone who wanted to live who was willing to fight for their life"

You can either lay there and be shot dead like a sheep or you can act. Your choice.

Yeah, it's scary, yeah it takes guts, yeah, not everyone is going to be able to do it, but since he reloaded FIVE times, people should have been catching on.

Actually to lie there like a sheep is good depending on the situation (if the gunman has not seen you). If he has seen you and is actively shooting people it is best for the group to rush him gong for his arms. But most people have not undergone active shooter training.

Here are some resources:
https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSwejU2D0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPX4XASbmXw

I've had to undergo this training.

 

[RavenSky]

Who is taking the side of "the creepy bad guy"?

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And your continued insistence that these people "coulda, shoulda" is you AGAIN blaming black people for their own deaths.

No, it is not.

You can insist that you are *just asking questions* but your positions are clear, and they are disgusting.

The only thing disgusting here, other than the crime, is the attitude some people here have with any, even slight, disagreement.

Wrong, Derec. You are absolutely blaming the black parishioners for their own deaths when you (and a couple of others) go on and on about how these innocent victims "coulda, shoulda" tackled the gunman or somehow otherwise prevented him from shooting them. You have not just idly asked a rhetorical question then moved on. You are here days later vehemently defending your position. That is BLAMING the victims for their own deaths, something you do EVERY time the victim is black.

This is not a "slight disagreement" on your part, Derec. This is a long standing pattern with you, and in my opinion you need to take a good cold hard long look at the positions you offer up instead of trying to point the finger at other people.

These VICTIMS did NOTHING wrong, NOTHING. The killer is 100% to blame. Your "hindsight" is fucked up wrong, and you need to shut the fuck up about it.

 

[RavenSky]

Exactly.

Let me qualify my statement

"someone who wanted to live who was willing to fight for their life"

You can either lay there and be shot dead like a sheep or you can act. Your choice.

Yeah, it's scary, yeah it takes guts, yeah, not everyone is going to be able to do it, but since he reloaded FIVE times, people should have been catching on.

Actually to lie there like a sheep is good depending on the situation (if the gunman has not seen you)...

And that is exactly how one of the survivors, Felecia Sanders, escaped with her life. She "played dead" while shielding her granddaughter. Meanwhile, the only person we know of that did try to engage the gunman to stop the rampage is dead, and so is his great-aunt whom he was trying to save. I do not criticize Tywanza Sanders for trying to take action, nor do I criticize Felecia Sanders for laying "there like a sheep".

I do, however, criticize everyone who thinks they know better than the people in that room as to how those victims 'coulda, shoulda' acted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Who is taking the side of "the creepy bad guy"?

- - - Updated - - -


No, it is not.

You can insist that you are *just asking questions* but your positions are clear, and they are disgusting.

The only thing disgusting here, other than the crime, is the attitude some people here have with any, even slight, disagreement.

Wrong, Derec. You are absolutely blaming the black parishioners for their own deaths when you (and a couple of others) go on and on about how these innocent victims "coulda, shoulda" tackled the gunman or somehow otherwise prevented him from shooting them. You have not just idly ask a rhetorical question then moved on. You are here days later vehemently defending your position. That is BLAMING the victims for their own deaths, something you do EVERY time the victim is black.

Actually it is a bit different. He is in part blaming the victims and survivors for the quantity of the death toll. It is a nice trick, to blame a quantity on the victims and survivors in such a fashion as to not suggest they are to blame for the death. A hair has never been split so finely before. And of course, nothing like stigmatizing people who are already suffering from survivor regret.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Maybe I should put this in rants.However,WTF is with some members that must always take the side of the creepy bad guy.

Water seeks it's own level.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Whoever is behind him should start it. He reloaded multiple times, when he's reloading whoever is behind him should jump on him and yell for everyone else to pile on.

A few years ago, some friends of mine were celebrating a buddy's birthday at a bar when an "active shooter" situation broke out. It was a fight between two groups of people on the patio that turned ugly when one of them pulled a gun and started shooting.


Thankfully none of my friends were hurt, but the one fatality bled out on the car of one guy I knew, and as such he had one helluva time getting it back from the police.


Anyway, after the incident happened I asked my carpool partner (who had a concealed carry permit and always kept a gun in his truck) what he'd have done if he'd been there.


He said he'd have done what he was trained to do in the classes he needed to get his permit. I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like this:


1. Find cover.

2. Get the fuck down.

3. Stay the fuck down.

4. Don't try to be a fucking hero.


And this is what you're supposed to do if you're armed.


I can't imagine there's a single self-defense class or CCW instructor in the country who would tell you that - if you're unarmed and find yourself in an active shooter situation - your best bet is to run towards the guy with the gun.


Maybe one of our resident firefight experts can chime in with their own personal experience at disarming a shooter in the fashion you propose.


I'll wait...

And that's the right response when it's a viable option.

Two groups shooting it out, let them, stay away.

When they're gunning for you it's a very different situation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A few years ago, some friends of mine were celebrating a buddy's birthday at a bar when an "active shooter" situation broke out. It was a fight between two groups of people on the patio that turned ugly when one of them pulled a gun and started shooting.


Thankfully none of my friends were hurt, but the one fatality bled out on the car of one guy I knew, and as such he had one helluva time getting it back from the police.


Anyway, after the incident happened I asked my carpool partner (who had a concealed carry permit and always kept a gun in his truck) what he'd have done if he'd been there.


He said he'd have done what he was trained to do in the classes he needed to get his permit. I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like this:


1. Find cover.

2. Get the fuck down.

3. Stay the fuck down.

4. Don't try to be a fucking hero.


And this is what you're supposed to do if you're armed.


I can't imagine there's a single self-defense class or CCW instructor in the country who would tell you that - if you're unarmed and find yourself in an active shooter situation - your best bet is to run towards the guy with the gun.


Maybe one of our resident firefight experts can chime in with their own personal experience at disarming a shooter in the fashion you propose.


I'll wait...

And that's the right response when it's a viable option.

Two groups shooting it out, let them, stay away.

When they're gunning for you it's a very different situation.

Please, walk me through the specifics of how those inside the church should have reacted. I want specifics. IE, what to use for cover, time available to rush shooter (between reloading the musket), interior of the building to be able to sneak at the shooter.

 

[Malintent]

Clearly this is an opportunity for the anti-capital punishment & penal reformists to remind us that this poor lad ought to get no more than 15-25 years (max) ...you know, like in those 'progressive' countries?

Although their silence, when it comes to a mass murdering racist, is deafening.

I think the anti-caps only support those that claim to be innocent and who may have had an iffy trial.
I don't think there are many anti-caps that support 'rehabilitation' for admitted mass-murderers... at least not vocal ones.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually to lie there like a sheep is good depending on the situation (if the gunman has not seen you). If he has seen you and is actively shooting people it is best for the group to rush him gong for his arms. But most people have not undergone active shooter training.

Here are some resources:
https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSwejU2D0

And note that in this shooting neither running nor hiding was a viable option. Thus I am saying the same thing the professionals are saying--fight.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Clearly this is an opportunity for the anti-capital punishment & penal reformists to remind us that this poor lad ought to get no more than 15-25 years (max) ...you know, like in those 'progressive' countries?

Although their silence, when it comes to a mass murdering racist, is deafening.

I think the anti-caps only support those that claim to be innocent and who may have had an iffy trial.
I don't think there are many anti-caps that support 'rehabilitation' for admitted mass-murderers... at least not vocal ones.

Especially given his stubboun intransigence in not offering up a token, half-hearted apology and promising to at least make a decent effort not to do it again. Both of those together mean that he needs to be behind bars for at least a week.

I realize how harsh that sounds and I apologize for taking such an aggressive and cold-hearted stance on the matter, but the man definitely needs a few days to think about what it is that he's done.