Op-ed: why people don't take conservative evangelicals seriously anymore

[Underseer]

http://www.alternet.org/belief/why-people-dont-take-right-wing-evangelicals-so-seriously-anymore

Thought the op-ed was interesting.

The "nones" (of which atheists are only a part) is the fastest growing demographic, and evangelicals are to a large degree the ones driving people out of Christianity and into the nones column.

Pretty much the whole article is in line with what most around here think about evangelicals, so this is kind of preaching to the choir, but it's worth mentioning, I think. Little by little, I think some evangelicals are starting to understand that their brand is severely damaged.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I think it's a good piece. That bit at the end is telling: evangelicals as mean, indifferent to truth...I would have included hypocritical -- how the hell do they support the orange-haired ranter who obviously doesn't know their scriptures but pretends to, and sees astronomical-level pride and self-absorption as a strength? Headline crawl on CNN this a.m.: Trump Takes Evangelical Vote in Mississippi. Actually, maybe that's not so much hypocritical as just plain, good ole-fashioned dumb.

 

[Underseer]

I think it's a good piece. That bit at the end is telling: evangelicals as mean, indifferent to truth...I would have included hypocritical -- how the hell do they support the orange-haired ranter who obviously doesn't know their scriptures but pretends to, and sees astronomical-level pride and self-absorption as a strength? Headline crawl on CNN this a.m.: Trump Takes Evangelical Vote in Mississippi. Actually, maybe that's not so much hypocritical as just plain, good ole-fashioned dumb.

How does any of that make Trump different from the average Evangelical?

If anything, it's all the more reason for them to identify with him.

 

[bilby]

Belief in magic implies that words and symbols are more important that actions; and that reality is defined and shaped by words, rather that merely described by them.

If a person SAYS the right things, then they are doing good, regardless of their actions. And equally, saying the wrong things - regardless of any other behaviour - is EVIL.

Of course, if magic isn't real, then you would need to judge people by their actions, and discount their words. But to do the opposite isn't hypocritical, if you start from the premise that words alone are sufficient to dramatically alter the physical universe. Because the good words are easily able to counteract any bad deeds.

 

[Underseer]

Belief in magic implies that words and symbols are more important that actions; and that reality is defined and shaped by words, rather that merely described by them.

If a person SAYS the right things, then they are doing good, regardless of their actions. And equally, saying the wrong things - regardless of any other behaviour - is EVIL.

Of course, if magic isn't real, then you would need to judge people by their actions, and discount their words. But to do the opposite isn't hypocritical, if you start from the premise that words alone are sufficient to dramatically alter the physical universe. Because the good words are easily able to counteract any bad deeds.

Good insight. I hadn't actually thought of it in those terms.

I am once again reminded of Dan Dennett's words: "Religion is a trap baited with people's desire to be good."

 

[fromderinside]

Belief in magic implies that words and symbols are more important that actions; and that reality is defined and shaped by words, rather that merely described by them.

If a person SAYS the right things, then they are doing good, regardless of their actions. And equally, saying the wrong things - regardless of any other behaviour - is EVIL.

Of course, if magic isn't real, then you would need to judge people by their actions, and discount their words. But to do the opposite isn't hypocritical, if you start from the premise that words alone are sufficient to dramatically alter the physical universe. Because the good words are easily able to counteract any bad deeds.

So I went through your post and got a sore brain.

 

[Atheos]

Sounds like words can shape reality.

 

[Underseer]

Sounds like words can shape reality.

Not unless magic is real and you are casting a spell.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Sounds like words can shape reality.

Not unless magic is real and you are casting a spell.

Well, magic certainly isn't real, but the word is, as well as casting spells.

 

[Underseer]

Not unless magic is real and you are casting a spell.

Well, magic certainly isn't real, but the word is, as well as casting spells.

Can you cast a spell for me that makes me young and wealthy? I would really like that.

 

[lpetrich]

Titled OP link: Why People Don't Take Right-Wing Evangelicals So Seriously Anymore | Alternet

From the article, evangelical means...

• ... obsessed with sex
• ... arrogant
• ... fearful and bigoted
• ... indifferent to truth
• ... gullible and greedy
• ... ignorant
• ... predatory
• ... mean

The best predictor of Trump support isn't income, education, or age. It's authoritarianism. - Vox
At least among South Carolina voters, authoritarianism and personal fear of terrorism are good predictors of support for him.

The rise of American authoritarianism - Vox

People who score high in authoritarianism, when they feel threatened, look for strong leaders who promise to take whatever action necessary to protect them from outsiders and prevent the changes they fear.

...
Trump embodies the classic authoritarian leadership style: simple, powerful, and punitive.

The study of authoritarianism emerged after World War II, when people tried to figure out why the Nazis got the support that they did. Having lots of brown-shirted goons certainly helped, but that puts the problem back a step: how the Nazi leaders recruited their goons, especially in the Nazi Party's early days.

Being authoritarian does not mean being nasty and evil all the time. Outside of what triggers their authoritarian tendencies, highly authoritarian people can be nice and well-behaved people. Also, people low on authoritarianism can be made more authoritarian by physical threats like terrorism.

Measuring authoritarianism can be difficult, because people won't own up to being bigots or anything unsavory. But an alternative is to ask about something different: parenting.

Feldman developed what has since become widely accepted as the definitive measurement of authoritarianism: four simple questions that appear to ask about parenting but are in fact designed to reveal how highly the respondent values hierarchy, order, and conformity over other values.

Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have:

• independence or respect for elders?
• obedience or self-reliance?
• to be considerate or to be well-behaved?
• curiosity or good manners?

The Authoritarians contains more quizzes for measuring authoritarianism.


As to what this might have to do with evangelicals, check out their ideas of good parenting -- they are big on authoritarianism.
Breaking Their Will: The Sick Biblical Literalism That Leads to Child Abuse and Even Death | Alternet

 

[Tigers!]

Well, magic certainly isn't real, but the word is, as well as casting spells.

Can you cast a spell for me that makes me young and wealthy? I would really like that.

Sure can. But its expensive, send me all your money first.

- - - Updated - - -

Belief in magic implies that words and symbols are more important that actions; and that reality is defined and shaped by words, rather that merely described by them.

If a person SAYS the right things, then they are doing good, regardless of their actions. And equally, saying the wrong things - regardless of any other behaviour - is EVIL.

Of course, if magic isn't real, then you would need to judge people by their actions, and discount their words. But to do the opposite isn't hypocritical, if you start from the premise that words alone are sufficient to dramatically alter the physical universe. Because the good words are easily able to counteract any bad deeds.

I am not certain that you are being sarcastic or not?

 

[bilby]

Belief in magic implies that words and symbols are more important that actions; and that reality is defined and shaped by words, rather that merely described by them.

If a person SAYS the right things, then they are doing good, regardless of their actions. And equally, saying the wrong things - regardless of any other behaviour - is EVIL.

Of course, if magic isn't real, then you would need to judge people by their actions, and discount their words. But to do the opposite isn't hypocritical, if you start from the premise that words alone are sufficient to dramatically alter the physical universe. Because the good words are easily able to counteract any bad deeds.

I am not certain that you are being sarcastic or not?

Not in the slightest.

If we accept that God can create an entire universe, just by saying 'Fiat lux', then we can easily believe that what is said is more powerful than what is done.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I am not certain that you are being sarcastic or not?

Not in the slightest.

If we accept that God can create an entire universe, just by saying 'Fiat lux', then we can easily believe that what is said is more powerful than what is done.

But it wasn't God saying something that created the universe, it was God doing something. His saying what he was doing while he was doing it was incidental to his exerting the power to perform the actions which he was taking.

 

[Keith&Co.]

His saying what he was doing while he was doing it was incidental to his exerting the power to perform the actions which he was taking.

Are we sure of that?
Even high, high, high level invocational spells often have a verbal spell component. Noting in the rules says this doesn't apply when the spell-caster is invoking himself.

 

[Underseer]

Not in the slightest.

If we accept that God can create an entire universe, just by saying 'Fiat lux', then we can easily believe that what is said is more powerful than what is done.

But it wasn't God saying something that created the universe, it was God doing something. His saying what he was doing while he was doing it was incidental to his exerting the power to perform the actions which he was taking.

The Bible makes it pretty clear that god "spoke" the universe into being.

It's like the author was using a verb randomizer or something.

 

[Kharakov]

Not in the slightest.

If we accept that God can create an entire universe, just by saying 'Fiat lux', then we can easily believe that what is said is more powerful than what is done.

But it wasn't God saying something that created the universe, it was God doing something. His saying what he was doing while he was doing it was incidental to his exerting the power to perform the actions which he was taking.

 

[Sarpedon]

Is there any religious humor that doesn't suck?

 

[skepticalbip]

Is there any religious humor that doesn't suck?

Absolutely...

Abe - a Jewish rabbi, Abdul - a Muslim imam, and Bob - a Christian evangelist were fishing from a small boat just off the shore.

After a while Abe felt the call of nature and stepped out of the boat to walk across the water to the shore to take a piss. After Abe walked back to the boat, the urge hit Abdul so he stepped out of the boat and walked across the water to the shore to take a piss then walked back to the boat to continue fishing. Bob had been watching this so decided to step out of the boat and walk to the shore. He immediately sank. When Bob surfaced splashing and gasping for air Abe and Abdul pointed toward an area near the bow of the boat and said, 'Bob, you need to use the rocks of the submerged jetty.'

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is there any religious humor that doesn't suck?

A woman is visiting her parents over the holidays. One night, after dinner, she's helping her mother put the dishes away. Her mom is real adamant about certain dishes going in certain cabinets, and others kept in a separate one. The woman is surprised, as here parents were never terribly orthodox when she grew up.
"Mom, when did you and Dad start keeping Kosher?"
"Kosher, smosher, everything in THIS cabinet your father can put in the microwave, everything in THAT cabinet he can't!"