PA grand jury report on Catholic child abuse

[Underseer]

http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...holic-priests-from-the-pa-grand-jurys-report/

Note: I am very deliberately avoiding use of the term pedophile, since certain posters immediately start splitting hairs about the finer points of the definition of pedophile.

But this is quite a list of boy-diddlers and girl-diddlers and boy-rapers and girl-rapers, and it's just a partial list from one state.

This is utterly horrifying.

Caveat:

I want to stress again that we should avoid the impression that this phenomenon is an exclusively Catholic one. Giving people that impression can place the children of non-Catholic theists at greater risk of sexual abuse. If we give others the impression that this is an exclusively Catholic phenomenon, then that makes it easier for non-Catholic religious institutions to hide these things, and as you well know from the Catholics, it's hiding this stuff that makes it so much worse for children.

Evangelical activists in GRACE insist that the problem is actually worse at Evangelical ministries precisely because for decades the media emphasized Catholic child abuse and under-reported non-Catholic child abuse.​

This is just a partial list of Catholic abuses in just one state. It does not include all the horrors from other denominations and religions, and does not include other states. The scope of the problem is mind-numbing and heart-breaking.

 

[phands]

I started a thread on this yesterday... https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...exual-abuse-in-Pennsylvania’s-Catholic-Church

Should we have them merged?

 

[Underseer]

I started a thread on this yesterday... https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...exual-abuse-in-Pennsylvania’s-Catholic-Church

Should we have them merged?

Yes. Sorry.

http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...e-scandal-on-atheists-gays-and-mega-dioceses/

And right on cue, someone in the church is blaming atheists.

 

[Lion IRC]

All the clergy/pedophile threads should be merged into one mega-fixation thread.
Hell, why not an entire sub-forum?
Gay priests.
Pedophile priests.
Atheist priests.
No True Scotsman priests.

 

[Lion IRC]

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...-Facebook-Live&p=573537&viewfull=1#post573537

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...Girl-in-Church&p=573334&viewfull=1#post573334

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...dered-Released&p=567724&viewfull=1#post567724

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...former-student&p=566484&viewfull=1#post566484

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...nts-hiding-a-Catholic-sized-sex-abuse-scandal

 

[phands]

I started a thread on this yesterday... https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...exual-abuse-in-Pennsylvania’s-Catholic-Church

Should we have them merged?

Yes. Sorry.

http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...e-scandal-on-atheists-gays-and-mega-dioceses/

And right on cue, someone in the church is blaming atheists.

And predictably, the #1 point was the usual "No true xxx" fallacy. #2, accusing the priests of being gay ignores the fact that a lot of the victims were little girls. #3 is correct: all churches are too big...they should have zero membersvictims.

 

[fast]

http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...holic-priests-from-the-pa-grand-jurys-report/

Note: I am very deliberately avoiding use of the term pedophile, since certain posters immediately start splitting hairs about the finer points of the definition of pedophile.

But this is quite a list of boy-diddlers and girl-diddlers and boy-rapers and girl-rapers, and it's just a partial list from one state.

This is utterly horrifying.

Caveat:

I want to stress again that we should avoid the impression that this phenomenon is an exclusively Catholic one. Giving people that impression can place the children of non-Catholic theists at greater risk of sexual abuse. If we give others the impression that this is an exclusively Catholic phenomenon, then that makes it easier for non-Catholic religious institutions to hide these things, and as you well know from the Catholics, it's hiding this stuff that makes it so much worse for children.

Evangelical activists in GRACE insist that the problem is actually worse at Evangelical ministries precisely because for decades the media emphasized Catholic child abuse and under-reported non-Catholic child abuse.​

This is just a partial list of Catholic abuses in just one state. It does not include all the horrors from other denominations and religions, and does not include other states. The scope of the problem is mind-numbing and heart-breaking.

Non catholic theists? That's what you came up with?

When a term is floundered around as if to have its very own side cart, pedophilia is almost always situated next to homosexuality.

Homosexuals and pedophiles
Transgenders and transsexuals
Atheists and agnostics

That's not to say there aren't differences, but it's the similarities that underlies their common grouping. Homosexuals for instance hate it when they're lumped in with pedophiles; they think one is harmless, as demonstrated and backed by liberals' finest. Traditional values in a destructive wake as tolerance grows aside, it's unparaleled sexual deviance is precisely why they will forever be viewed as being worthy of mentioned together.

It's a liberals wet dream to find a conservative politician caught engaging in world-of-the-deviant activities -- so they can scream to the top of their pathetic lungs, "hypocrite." It's a liberals wet dream to point to the one institution that abhors the deviance. It truly is ashame when a public figure in church has engaged in the very deviance they espouse against, but the tie that binds is what I'm responding to. The frequency of deviancy is not magnified when a priest is deviant--but you'd think it was since it'll catch headlines.

Homosexuality is day in day out deviance. Pedophelia is wrong and deviant, day in day out. Sure, you can try to lump Catholicism with pedophelia, but it's lame to do so, as its binding is no stronger than how serious anyone would take a horse-voice liberal hollering hypocrite.

 

[Underseer]

http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...holic-priests-from-the-pa-grand-jurys-report/

Note: I am very deliberately avoiding use of the term pedophile, since certain posters immediately start splitting hairs about the finer points of the definition of pedophile.

But this is quite a list of boy-diddlers and girl-diddlers and boy-rapers and girl-rapers, and it's just a partial list from one state.

This is utterly horrifying.

Caveat:

I want to stress again that we should avoid the impression that this phenomenon is an exclusively Catholic one. Giving people that impression can place the children of non-Catholic theists at greater risk of sexual abuse. If we give others the impression that this is an exclusively Catholic phenomenon, then that makes it easier for non-Catholic religious institutions to hide these things, and as you well know from the Catholics, it's hiding this stuff that makes it so much worse for children.

Evangelical activists in GRACE insist that the problem is actually worse at Evangelical ministries precisely because for decades the media emphasized Catholic child abuse and under-reported non-Catholic child abuse.​

This is just a partial list of Catholic abuses in just one state. It does not include all the horrors from other denominations and religions, and does not include other states. The scope of the problem is mind-numbing and heart-breaking.

Non catholic theists? That's what you came up with?

When a term is floundered around as if to have its very own side cart, pedophilia is almost always situated next to homosexuality.

Homosexuals and pedophiles
Transgenders and transsexuals
Atheists and agnostics

That's not to say there aren't differences, but it's the similarities that underlies their common grouping. Homosexuals for instance hate it when they're lumped in with pedophiles; they think one is harmless, as demonstrated and backed by liberals' finest. Traditional values in a destructive wake as tolerance grows aside, it's unparaleled sexual deviance is precisely why they will forever be viewed as being worthy of mentioned together.

It's a liberals wet dream to find a conservative politician caught engaging in world-of-the-deviant activities -- so they can scream to the top of their pathetic lungs, "hypocrite." It's a liberals wet dream to point to the one institution that abhors the deviance. It truly is ashame when a public figure in church has engaged in the very deviance they espouse against, but the tie that binds is what I'm responding to. The frequency of deviancy is not magnified when a priest is deviant--but you'd think it was since it'll catch headlines.

Homosexuality is day in day out deviance. Pedophelia is wrong and deviant, day in day out. Sure, you can try to lump Catholicism with pedophelia, but it's lame to do so, as its binding is no stronger than how serious anyone would take a horse-voice liberal hollering hypocrite.

By "non Catholic," I was referring to Evangelicals.

By making this seem like an exclusively Catholic thing, we've made it easier for Evangelical ministries to hide these thing when they happen, and as you should remember, it is the act of hiding these things that exposes so many more children to harm. Don't take my word for it, Evangelical activists in GRACE insist that the problem is actually worse at Evangelical ministries because the media made this look like an exclusively Catholic thing.

As for your assertion that homosexuality is linked to pedophilia, that is demonstrably false. Most acts of pedophilia overwhelmingly involve heterosexual pedophilia, such as that pedophile Senatorial candidate for the Republican party.

- - - Updated - - -

All the clergy/pedophile threads should be merged into one mega-fixation thread.
Hell, why not an entire sub-forum?
Gay priests.
Pedophile priests.
Atheist priests.
No True Scotsman priests.

Gosh. Everyone is so fixated on pedophilia! It's almost as if we think pedophilia is a bad thing! Can you imagine? If only we had Christian morals like you, then we wouldn't be so "fixated" on pedophilia.

 

[Lion IRC]

All the clergy/pedophile threads should be merged into one mega-fixation thread.
Hell, why not an entire sub-forum?
Gay priests.
Pedophile priests.
Atheist priests.
No True Scotsman priests.

Gosh. Everyone is so fixated on pedophilia! It's almost as if we think pedophilia is a bad thing! Can you imagine?

In .au there's a media personality turned politician, an atheist named Derryn Hinch who portrays himself as a white knight campaigner against child sex abuse. That's his thing. He has been held in contempt of court for naming and shaming etc. He beats his breast and tears his garments and rails against pedophilia at every opportunity. (And that's a good thing)

...but does he really deserve a "voice in the wilderness" gold medal for standing up on a pedestal and using a megaphone to announce to everyone that he thinks pedophilia is immoral? #virtue_signalling

Oh yeah. And no surprises that this guy sees no problem with that other form of child abuse commonly known as abortion. (Well, I can't say for sure that he is completely OK with abortion because recent abortion-on-demand stats show that tons of women are selectively aborting their babies because of gender selection.)

 

[fast]

I have nothing negative to say about what you have said.

What I'm curious about is in those last few words, "because of gender selection?"

That is just your reporting of what others have said. What I question is the accuracy of what they have said. It's bad enough that people would use SEX of a child to decide to abort, but curiously I ask resident pro evil thinkers, how in the holy hell has science rendered it possible to identify prebirth what GENDER the child will have?

 

[Underseer]

All the clergy/pedophile threads should be merged into one mega-fixation thread.
Hell, why not an entire sub-forum?
Gay priests.
Pedophile priests.
Atheist priests.
No True Scotsman priests.

Gosh. Everyone is so fixated on pedophilia! It's almost as if we think pedophilia is a bad thing! Can you imagine?

In .au there's a media personality turned politician, an atheist named Derryn Hinch who portrays himself as a white knight campaigner against child sex abuse. That's his thing. He has been held in contempt of court for naming and shaming etc. He beats his breast and tears his garments and rails against pedophilia at every opportunity. (And that's a good thing)

...but does he really deserve a "voice in the wilderness" gold medal for standing up on a pedestal and using a megaphone to announce to everyone that he thinks pedophilia is immoral? #virtue_signalling

Oh yeah. And no surprises that this guy sees no problem with that other form of child abuse commonly known as abortion. (Well, I can't say for sure that he is completely OK with abortion because recent abortion-on-demand stats show that tons of women are selectively aborting their babies because of gender selection.)

So if one atheist pedophile proves that atheism is wrong, what does the much larger number of Christian pedophiles prove?

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.joemygod.com/2018/08/16/...-its-not-rape-when-the-child-isnt-penetrated/

Speaking of pedophiles, according to Catholics, it doesn't count as child abuse unless there is penetration. So I guess according to the Christian view, you can do anything sexual to a child you want as long as your penis doesn't enter one of their holes. Gotta love those superior Christian "morals."

 

[Lion IRC]

I have nothing negative to say about what you have said.

What I'm curious about is in those last few words, "because of gender selection?"

That is just your reporting of what others have said. What I question is the accuracy of what they have said. It's bad enough that people would use SEX of a child to decide to abort, but curiously I ask resident pro evil thinkers, how in the holy hell has science rendered it possible to identify prebirth what GENDER the child will have?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion

It extends to gender bias in adoption and surrogacy as well. (Did you know gay couples are more gender biased than their heterosexual counterparts?)

 

[ruby sparks]

In .au there's a media personality turned politician, an atheist named Derryn Hinch who portrays himself as a white knight campaigner against child sex abuse. That's his thing. He has been held in contempt of court for naming and shaming etc. He beats his breast and tears his garments and rails against pedophilia at every opportunity. (And that's a good thing)

...but does he really deserve a "voice in the wilderness" gold medal for standing up on a pedestal and using a megaphone to announce to everyone that he thinks pedophilia is immoral? #virtue_signalling

Oh yeah. And no surprises that this guy sees no problem with that other form of child abuse commonly known as abortion. (Well, I can't say for sure that he is completely OK with abortion because recent abortion-on-demand stats show that tons of women are selectively aborting their babies because of gender selection.)

Lion, I don't really want to get into a big debate with you about abortion (in general I mean) because we'd just disagree strongly. But personally, I would not call it child abuse. I am assuming that the abortion is done early (as most are) and that the embryo is incapable of experiencing suffering.

I'm not saying it's not ending a life. I'm not saying it's not denying a potential person a future.

As an atheist, who doesn't believe in heaven or the equivalent, I have to ask myself, what is in the best interests of this embryo? It is going to live a life which is at best a mixture of pain and pleasure and it is going to die. If it is unwanted or not planned, is it a good thing to force it to face the world? Sure, I might, if I was its mother, change my mind and want it, in fact, that's an option. But maybe its father doesn't want it either and maybe never will. What gives me the right to foist the world onto this potential person without its consent? I have to be very careful about deciding which is kinder and more responsible (assuming I don't have a time machine and getting unpregnant is not an option). For one thing, I can make sure it never suffers at all (assuming an atheist position).

And that's just thinking about the embryo. There are considerations for several people, mother, father, sisters, brothers, society. If we force people to have babies merely because they are pregnant, who wins? It's an open question.

That is my point of view. I realise it's not yours.

 

[DrZoidberg]

All the clergy/pedophile threads should be merged into one mega-fixation thread.
Hell, why not an entire sub-forum?
Gay priests.
Pedophile priests.
Atheist priests.
No True Scotsman priests.

Gosh. Everyone is so fixated on pedophilia! It's almost as if we think pedophilia is a bad thing! Can you imagine?

In .au there's a media personality turned politician, an atheist named Derryn Hinch who portrays himself as a white knight campaigner against child sex abuse. That's his thing. He has been held in contempt of court for naming and shaming etc. He beats his breast and tears his garments and rails against pedophilia at every opportunity. (And that's a good thing)

...but does he really deserve a "voice in the wilderness" gold medal for standing up on a pedestal and using a megaphone to announce to everyone that he thinks pedophilia is immoral? #virtue_signalling

Oh yeah. And no surprises that this guy sees no problem with that other form of child abuse commonly known as abortion. (Well, I can't say for sure that he is completely OK with abortion because recent abortion-on-demand stats show that tons of women are selectively aborting their babies because of gender selection.)

You can take your whataboutism and f**ck right off. When you defend pedophilia, by putting it on par with abortion, you deserve what you get.

 

[Lion IRC]

"When you defend pedophilia..."
WTF?
Screen capped. Reported

 

[DrZoidberg]

"When you defend pedophilia..."
WTF?
Screen capped. Reported

If you want to annoy people on a public forum, it might be smart to avoid defending pedophilia. Just a hot tip

 

[Tigers!]

Has anyone ever done the figures to breakdown the % of paedophilic priests compared to the number of priests as a whole i.e what proportion of the priesthood in PA (or anywhere else for that matter) has been convicted of such crimes?
I hear that the report mentions 300. Is that correct?

 

[ideologyhunter]

About 15 years ago, in the second big wave of these stories, I read in some press accounts that 2% of the American priesthood were accused of child abuse. However, A, as in any kind of crime reporting, an accusation can never be the same as established guilt; B, this is an area where under-reporting, for many well-known reasons, is a factor; C, the bishops who were shown to have done nothing substantial to solve the problem created more abuse than many individual priests. I haven't seen that 2% figure for a long time, and perhaps it's been debunked or reassessed by careful reporting.
What I want to know: is this Pennsylvania story one of a potential 50?? Have other states initiated this kind of investigation? Was it a matter of one AG deciding to act on complaints? You have to wonder how the Catholic church would come out of a situation where, over a series of years, state after state issued grand jury reports covering abuse allegations.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

About 15 years ago, in the second big wave of these stories, I read in some press accounts that 2% of the American priesthood were accused of child abuse. However, A, as in any kind of crime reporting, an accusation can never be the same as established guilt; B, this is an area where under-reporting, for many well-known reasons, is a factor; C, the bishops who were shown to have done nothing substantial to solve the problem created more abuse than many individual priests. I haven't seen that 2% figure for a long time, and perhaps it's been debunked or reassessed by careful reporting.
What I want to know: is this Pennsylvania story one of a potential 50?? Have other states initiated this kind of investigation? Was it a matter of one AG deciding to act on complaints? You have to wonder how the Catholic church would come out of a situation where, over a series of years, state after state issued grand jury reports covering abuse allegations.

It is impossible for me to believe that even if only 2% of priests were abusers, most priests, nuns and seminarians did not know this was occurring. These people had jobs they wanted to keep. Are they going to report their bosses to their bosses? It's the bosses that appoint the new bosses.

Unless one grew up in this culture it is equally impossible to understand how it could occur and continue to occur for centuries.

Remember that horrendous airline crash in Tenerife? It was only after that tragic incident and investigation that fundamental changes were made to how pilots were evaluated. That crash happened because the pilot in the cockpit was the boss and you didn't question the boss unless you wanted to sacrifice your career.

The same thing happened here but with the added element of religious obedience, threats and superstitious mumbo-jumbo. Poor kids.

But because it is "religion" and therefore super-duper special and magical, it will continue to get a pass. Hopefully people will mature and leave this stupidity behind so that these "morally superior" self-appointed saviors cause less damage in the future.

We should just burn them all at the stake maybe.

 

[Copernicus]

In .au there's a media personality turned politician, an atheist named Derryn Hinch who portrays himself as a white knight campaigner against child sex abuse. That's his thing. He has been held in contempt of court for naming and shaming etc. He beats his breast and tears his garments and rails against pedophilia at every opportunity. (And that's a good thing)

...but does he really deserve a "voice in the wilderness" gold medal for standing up on a pedestal and using a megaphone to announce to everyone that he thinks pedophilia is immoral? #virtue_signalling

Oh yeah. And no surprises that this guy sees no problem with that other form of child abuse commonly known as abortion. (Well, I can't say for sure that he is completely OK with abortion because recent abortion-on-demand stats show that tons of women are selectively aborting their babies because of gender selection.)

You can take your whataboutism and f**ck right off. When you defend pedophilia, by putting it on par with abortion, you deserve what you get.

To be fair, I don't believe that Lion felt he was trying to defend pedophilia, although he seems to have left that impression with his muddled response to Underseer's post. It is whataboutery to simultaneously endorse the anti-pedophilia remarks of some random Australian atheist--"(And that's a good thing) and then go on to attack his motives as "#virtue_signalling". So what if the man is an atheist? There are plenty of "white night" Christians who are equally outspoken against it. And I agree with you that the equivalence between abortion and pedophilia is outrageously false. I just feel it is wrong to claim that Lion is a defender of pedophilia, which kind of distracts from the perfectly valid point you were starting to make.