Paris: Dozens Killed In Terrorist Attack

[Jokodo]

Sorry, but that's obviously bullshit. 800k is like the entire Chechen population excluding infants and immobile elderly people. It's logistically impossible to have 800,000 demonstrate in Grozny.

I tiny bit of common sense could have saved you the embarrassment of spreading obvious (to anyone with a cursory knowledge of the world outside the US) misinformation from obviously dubitable sources. Maybe you can learn for next time.

Ummmm...no. The headline says they 800,000 Muslims, not just Chechens, were staging protests...presumably centered in Gronzy and Chechnya. There are 1.2 million in Chechnya, and 16 million Muslims in Russia. Depending on their proximity to Gronzy, it is entirely possible.

From the article's source, Daily Mail "Meanwhile, in Grozny, protesters marched through the streets of downtown Grozny, releasing balloons and carrying posters that read 'Hands off our beloved prophet' and 'Europe has only united us'.

'More than 800,000 people took part in the event in the centre of Grozny,' the Russian interior ministry said.

On Friday, Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov wrote on his official Instagram account that those who defended Charlie Hebdo were his 'personal enemies', and vowed that at least 1 million people would join the government-sponsored protest in Grozny."

Be it 400,000 or 800,000 or 1,600,000 Muslim marchers, who is dodging the question asked, hmmmm?

"So where are these masses of liberty loving, anti-terrorist, Muslims? The search for this unicorn continues."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...azine-record-SEVEN-MILLION.html#ixzz3rgyCkqtz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

You know that Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin's man in Grozny, is quite a character? He sells himself as the only one able to keep Chechen terrorism in check, but at the same time happily, and without being disturbed, brandishes his own kind of fundamentalism - including organising the rally in question as an official event. As far as irregularities during his rule are concerned, having his police inflate the numbers by a factor of 5 or 10 doesn't even make the list.

 

[Jayjay]

It's not about who has the moral high ground to judge other person's belief, but who has the epistemological high ground. Muslim A who thinks muslim B is not really a muslim is usually just making a religious statement that is meaningless outside the context of Muslim A's belief system. But at the same time muslims B might just as strongly feel the opposite, again in context of his own belief system. What's a person outside those belief systems to do? At best, we can take their self-identification at face value and agree that they are both muslims because they think they are.

To put it another way, it's not me that the moderate muslim needs to convince about what Islam is or isn't. That's a theological dispute and to an atheist about as relevant as how many angels can dance on a head of a pin.

A few points:

1. By taking self-identification at face value, you're making a decision as to who a Muslim is. But why not also making an assessment about what Islam is?

The two are not mutually exclusive. It's just that in this case, the objective assessment of what reasonably qualifies as Islam is so broad that both the moderate muslim and ISIS dude would be covered. If there was someone who said he didn't believe in Quran, and didn't think Mohammed was a prophet, yet thought that he was a muslim, then we might have grounds to question his self-identification.

2. Whether the moderate self-identified Muslim needs to convince you or other self-identified Muslims depends on what they're trying to accomplish.

Correct. And in former case, I can't think of a very good reason.

3. With regard to the epistemological high ground, I'm not sure how that works: why would a self-identified Sunni Muslim be in a better epistemological position than a self-identified former Muslim, or a self-identified atheist who has studied philosophy of religion, history of Islam and the Quran, to assess whether a Shia Muslim is a Muslim, or whether the Quran entails that thieves deserve to have a hand (or both) cut off, or some other thing you're thinking about?

Anyone who thinks that Quran has supernatural origins and trying to interpret it through that premise is already in realm of theology, and doesn't mean anything for anyone who doesn't accept the same premise.

 

[Jayjay]

How is your question (which was not quite self-identification) relevant to self-identification that was being discussed?

a. That does not address either of my questions. So, I will ask again.
1. Papers in which field?
2. Let's say yes in the field(s) you're thinking about. How is that relevant to my question?

b. My question was part of my reply to one of Jayjay's posts, and it's relevant because Jayjay said that his point was about epistemological high ground, so I asked why he believed that self-identified Muslims had a higher epistemological high-ground for assessing certain matters. Simply put, it was relevant because I was asking Jayjay to provide evidence of one of his claims.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that the self-identified muslims have the "epistemological high ground". It's the opposite: they lack the high ground because they view certain issues through glasses of divine revelation rather than any objective criteria.

 

[Jayjay]

Ummmm...no. The headline says they 800,000 Muslims, not just Chechens, were staging protests...presumably centered in Gronzy and Chechnya. There are 1.2 million in Chechnya, and 16 million Muslims in Russia. Depending on their proximity to Gronzy, it is entirely possible.

From the article's source, Daily Mail "Meanwhile, in Grozny, protesters marched through the streets of downtown Grozny, releasing balloons and carrying posters that read 'Hands off our beloved prophet' and 'Europe has only united us'.

'More than 800,000 people took part in the event in the centre of Grozny,' the Russian interior ministry said.

On Friday, Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov wrote on his official Instagram account that those who defended Charlie Hebdo were his 'personal enemies', and vowed that at least 1 million people would join the government-sponsored protest in Grozny."

Be it 400,000 or 800,000 or 1,600,000 Muslim marchers, who is dodging the question asked, hmmmm?

"So where are these masses of liberty loving, anti-terrorist, Muslims? The search for this unicorn continues."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...azine-record-SEVEN-MILLION.html#ixzz3rgyCkqtz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

You know that Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin's man in Grozny, is quite a character? He sells himself as the only one able to keep Chechen terrorism in check, but at the same time happily, and without being disturbed, brandishes his own kind of fundamentalism - including organising the rally in question as an official event. As far as irregularities during his rule are concerned, having his police inflate the numbers by a factor of 5 or 10 doesn't even make the list.

Nor does inflating that particular number by factor of 5 or 10 really affect the original point, that there are public displays of muslim rage against e.g. cartoons that draw vastly bigger crowds than demonstrations against islamic terrorism.

 

[untermensche]

Nor does inflating that particular number by factor of 5 or 10 really affect the original point, that there are public displays of muslim rage against e.g. cartoons that draw vastly bigger crowds than demonstrations against islamic terrorism.

When did these public outrages over drawings begin?

Was it before or after the US attacked Iraq and in the mind of many the Muslim world?

 

[TV and credit cards]

CNN is salivating. This could be high entertainment.

French President Francois Hollande, who is urging a U.S.-Russian alliance to destroy Islamic State.

Putin’s huddle with President Barack Obama on Sunday at a global summit

“We won’t wipe the tears out of our souls and hearts. This will remain with us forever. But it won’t stop us from finding and punishing the perpetrators.”

Narrowing differences for a Coalition of the Willing, Part Deux.

 

[Jokodo]

You know that Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin's man in Grozny, is quite a character? He sells himself as the only one able to keep Chechen terrorism in check, but at the same time happily, and without being disturbed, brandishes his own kind of fundamentalism - including organising the rally in question as an official event. As far as irregularities during his rule are concerned, having his police inflate the numbers by a factor of 5 or 10 doesn't even make the list.

Nor does inflating that particular number by factor of 5 or 10 really affect the original point, that there are public displays of muslim rage against e.g. cartoons that draw vastly bigger crowds than demonstrations against islamic terrorism.

Except it's not true. Since most victims of islamic terrorism are Muslims, it is little surprising that most rallies against islamic terrorism are also dominated by Muslim relatives of the victims.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-girl-prompted-huge-protests-in-afghanistan/
http://www.mintpressnews.com/thousa...al-for-victims-of-saudi-terror-attack/205949/

Or are you expecting seperate "muslim only" vigils in the West, for Western victims only? Why on earth? Muslims were among the victims in Paris, Muslims were among the rescue forces, Muslims were among the attendants at the vigils, how's that not good enough?

 

[Jokodo]

It's actually a pretty dumb (as in, "please come back when you've learned to use google"-dumb) to claim that there are no protests against islamist atrocities by Muslims. When I google "9 year old girl beheaded" (without the quotes), i.e. referring to a recent well-publicised act of ISIS in a Muslim country, the first hits are:
The beheading of a 9-year-old girl prompted huge protests ...
Girl aged 9 found beheaded after massacre of 7 people in ...
Afghans Set Aside Ethnic Differences, Join To Protest ...
Protesters lash out in Afghanistan over beheading of 9-year ...
Women Protesters Carried The Coffin Of A 9-Year-Old Girl ...
Protesters Demand Vengeance For 9-Year-Old Girl ...

Or in other words, I find more about the protests than about the killings themselves - even without "protest" among the keywords.

If you expect them to come out in protest specifically for the victims in Paris, I gott ask you: What did you do about the Hazara victims? Or do you believe that white victims count so much more that the whole world can be expected to mourn them and only them?

 

[iolo]

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic Studies from Islamic University of Baghdad. Probably knows something about the subject.

He doesn't actually commit the crimes, any more than do Cameron and his like. Do the killers themselves know anything about the matter? Mostly not, I think, just as those who issue orders for mass-murder, like Bush and Bliar, would probably faint away at once at the sight of real blood. All you need to order such scumminess is a lack of imagination or - like Bliar - to live in total fantasy at all times

 

[barbos]

Caricatures - huge protests
ISIS kills 21 muslims, lesser "protests",
ISIS kills 120+ people in France - so far not much of anything.

 

[untermensche]

Caricatures - huge protests
ISIS kills 21 muslims, lesser "protests",
ISIS kills 120+ people in France - so far not much of anything.

Who's responsible for ISIS?

 

[barbos]

Caricatures - huge protests
ISIS kills 21 muslims, lesser "protests",
ISIS kills 120+ people in France - so far not much of anything.

Who's responsible for ISIS?

French people of course, who else?

 

[Jokodo]

Caricatures - huge protests
ISIS kills 21 muslims, lesser "protests",
ISIS kills 120+ people in France - so far not much of anything.

If by "so far not much of anything", you mean "way more than we've seen in the West in terms of a reaction to an atrocity whose victims were Muslims", you might be right. It's kind of not what those English words mean, though.

So, exactly what do you expect? Do you expect that an Afghan or Syrian who's lost a friend or cousin to ISIS or the Taliban pretends that he's more angry about the French deaths than about his cousin lest we conclude that sympathises with the murderers of his cousin? How in the world is that a reasonable expectation?

 

[barbos]

Caricatures - huge protests
ISIS kills 21 muslims, lesser "protests",
ISIS kills 120+ people in France - so far not much of anything.

If by "so far not much of anything", you mean "way more than we've seen in the West in terms of a reaction to an atrocity whose victims were Muslims", you might be right. It's kind of not what those English words mean, though.

With all due respect but if western people start moaning muslims killing muslims they would not be able to do anything else.
Also your links don't count as protests, because it was basically funerals and if one thing muslims love that's funerals after suicide bombing. If they are "lucky" then funerals would be be bombed too, then next funerals, .....

 

[iolo]

Caricatures - huge protests
ISIS kills 21 muslims, lesser "protests",
ISIS kills 120+ people in France - so far not much of anything.

Who's responsible for ISIS?

Bush and Bliar, primarily, but the Sunni stinking-rich immediately.

 

[iolo]

Who's responsible for ISIS?

French people of course, who else?

France is a bully-country, and has been since the Revolution, if not before. I remember when Breton names meant you were a non-person in the State's eyes. Whatever the problem, their self-righteous bossiness exacerbates it.

 

[Jokodo]

If by "so far not much of anything", you mean "way more than we've seen in the West in terms of a reaction to an atrocity whose victims were Muslims", you might be right. It's kind of not what those English words mean, though.

With all due respect but if western people start moaning muslims killing muslims they would not be able to do anything else.
Also your links don't count as protests, because it was basically funerals and if one thing muslims love that's funerals after suicide bombing. If they are "lucky" then funerals would be be bombed too, then next funerals, .....

Reading comprehension fail. There were protests across the country, not just the funeral demonstration.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You even suggested that I'm lying.

I did not suggest you are lying. What I wrote is that maybe you already knew something in regard to a question or answer you put forward. That does not logically mean I called you a liar.

Back to your question:

3. With regard to the epistemological high ground, I'm not sure how that works: why would a self-identified Sunni Muslim be in a better epistemological position than a self-identified former Muslim, or a self-identified atheist who has studied philosophy of religion, history of Islam and the Quran, to assess whether a Shia Muslim is a Muslim, or whether the Quran entails that thieves deserve to have a hand (or both) cut off, or some other thing you're thinking about?

As I've already pointed out Jayjay did not say that he will accept a "Sunni Muslim['s]" self-identification as some method "to assess whether a Shia Muslim is a Muslim." That isn't how an atheist trying to be unbiased would use self-identification at all. In fact, in context of what Jayjay wrote the question does not make sense.

Here is what Jayjay wrote:

Muslim A who thinks muslim B is not really a muslim is usually just making a religious statement that is meaningless outside the context of Muslim A's belief system. But at the same time muslims B might just as strongly feel the opposite, again in context of his own belief system. What's a person outside those belief systems to do? At best, we can take their self-identification at face value and agree that they are both muslims because they think they are.

A Sunni Muslim believing that a Shia Muslim is not a Muslim [and therefore using an epistemological high ground to invalidate him as a Muslim] is not included in what Jayjay wrote. In fact, it's the opposite of what he wrote.

 

[jonatha]

Wiki Mahdi

Just did. It says,

"There is no explicit reference to the Mahdi in the Qu'ran..."

That is, there is no apocalyptic reference in the Qu'ran itself. Just undocumented traditional beliefs outside the Qu'ran.

Rather like the "Rapture" being a popular Christian tenet, while not being in the bible at all.

OK. Wiki Dabiq

"In Islamic eschatology as found in the Hadith, the area of Dabiq is mentioned as a place of some of the events of the Muslim Malahim (which would equate to the Christian apocalypse, or Armageddon)."

 

[untermensche]

Who's responsible for ISIS?

French people of course, who else?

Makes as much sense as saying somebody living in Lebanon, or Iraq, or Eqypt is responsible for ISIS.