Perception vs. Reality

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't blame slaves, but do you not see how BLM clinging to every police shooting black guy regardless of the justification can backfire?

Is BLM doing that because generally the narrative is

1) Person dies/is injured at the hands of the police
2) Police issue a public statement about the incident
3) Camera footage show the police are fucking lying

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

It is estimated that about 1,000 blacks were killed by police last year. I don't recall #BLM going "nuts" about 1,000 times last year, or 500... or 100... or even 50.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I don't blame slaves, but do you not see how BLM clinging to every police shooting black guy regardless of the justification can backfire?

Is BLM doing that because generally the narrative is

1) Person dies/is injured at the hands of the police
2) Police issue a public statement about the incident
3) Camera footage show the police are fucking lying

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

The highest profile cases are the ones where the police were in the wrong, but BLM always considers them to be in the wrong even when a reasonable examination of the facts says otherwise.

You wouldn't know 'reasonable examination' if it ran you over....backed over your head...and then did donuts on you before taking off.

 

[Elixir]

It is estimated that about 1,000 blacks were killed by police last year. I don't recall #BLM going "nuts" about 1,000 times last year, or 500... or 100... or even 50.

Yabut "reasonable examination" shows that only 2 of those killings were unwarranted, so ...
/sarcasm

When a population is oppressed badly enough for long enough, the individuals within that population become dangerous to the oppressors. Oppressors react by killing the most obviously dangerous among the oppressed.
Remove the oppression and you remove the danger, and the killing stops.
It's not fucking rocket science.

 

[Trausti]

It is estimated that about 1,000 blacks were killed by police last year. I don't recall #BLM going "nuts" about 1,000 times last year, or 500... or 100... or even 50.

Yabut "reasonable examination" shows that only 2 of those killings were unwarranted, so ...
/sarcasm

When a population is oppressed badly enough for long enough, the individuals within that population become dangerous to the oppressors. Oppressors react by killing the most obviously dangerous among the oppressed.
Remove the oppression and you remove the danger, and the killing stops.
It's not fucking rocket science.

 

[Gospel]

I think you're having a reading comprehension issue with the police leaving in droves part. I think they were leaving intentionally, they were not fired as a result of defunding. So ultimately the increase in crime is due to them quitting not due to any defunding.

 

[Elixir]

I think you're having a reading comprehension issue with the police leaving in droves part. I think they were leaving intentionally, they were not fired as a result of defunding. So ultimately the increase in crime is due to them quitting not due to any defunding.

Right. And also irrelevant to the point to which the right wing extremist is pretending to respond. In fact, it underscores it in typically oblivious fashion.

 

[ZiprHead]

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

It is estimated that about 1,000 blacks were killed by police last year. I don't recall #BLM going "nuts" about 1,000 times last year, or 500... or 100... or even 50.

Ironic that he posted that in a thread titled "Perception vs. Reality".

 

[GenesisNemesis]

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

It is estimated that about 1,000 blacks were killed by police last year. I don't recall #BLM going "nuts" about 1,000 times last year, or 500... or 100... or even 50.

Also right wingers always completely ignore the role poverty plays in crime. But crime can't possibly be a complex thing and is only caused by people I don't like, right?

 

[laughing dog]

I think you're having a reading comprehension issue with the police leaving in droves part. I think they were leaving intentionally, they were not fired as a result of defunding. So ultimately the increase in crime is due to them quitting not due to any defunding.

There is no evidence that the increase in violence is due to the lack of police in Minneapolis. None at this point. Some of the officers left due to physical injuries, but the some appear to have left because they either feel unappreciated and some have left because they do not want to work under new conditions that they feel hinder their safety or effectiveness which may include in some cases the ability to act like racist fucks. At least that is what I glean from the reports from local TC papers, guest editorials and letters to the editors.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

It is estimated that about 1,000 blacks were killed by police last year. I don't recall #BLM going "nuts" about 1,000 times last year, or 500... or 100... or even 50.

Also right wingers always completely ignore the role poverty plays in crime. But crime can't possibly be a complex thing and is only caused by people I don't like, right?

While that is certainly true, LP's gross exaggeration regarding #BLM indicates that LP doesn't actually get that #BLM doesn't fly off the handle if a black person is killed by the police. #BLM has generally become vocal when unarmed black people are killed. Thankfully, it isn't that common, but still, it is hard to tackle a topic when discussing with a person that has a distorted perception of the truth.

 

[ronburgundy]

we do have number arrested:number dead and that's a reasonable proxy for the situation especially as encounters that don't result in an arrest are extremely unlikely to result in the serious use of force.

Deaths per arrest is not a valid stat, b/c it is deflated for blacks due their arrests being inflated by police bias. Blacks are twice as likely to be stopped by the cops while while in public prior to being a suspect in any reported crime, and 4 times as likely to experience use of force during such impromptu "street stops" and in traffic stops. While this happens all over the US, "stop and frisk" policies were so bold as to basically make it a formal policy to stop minorities on the streets and violate their rights. This supports the high likelihood that black people who are doing nothing to warrant even being approached let alone arrested, wind up getting arrested due to defending themselves and their rights against assaults by police. In contrast, whites who are approached by cops, have force used on them, and are arrested are a more select group of violent criminals actually engaged in crime and initiating violence against cops, and thus warranting arrest and use of force.

That means the the "arrests" denominator for blacks is inflated with people only arrested because of the racial bias by the cops. That would then artificially reduce their deaths per arrests ratio.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The above does NOT imply that whites are generally more likely to engage in crime. That's irrelevant. What it means is that whites rarely get approached and arrested by cops unless they were engaging in behaviors that warrant being stopped, arrested, and have force used against them, whereas just being black is often the sole basis that triggers this sequence of events.

There's also another factor: Cities do not show the supposed racial bias in shootings. Rather, what we actually see is that cities with a lot of black people have more shootings, period--black or white.

Blacks are 3.2 times more likely to be killed by cops in metropolitan areas. In Chicago, they are 6.5 times more likely.

 

[Gospel]

I think you're having a reading comprehension issue with the police leaving in droves part. I think they were leaving intentionally, they were not fired as a result of defunding. So ultimately the increase in crime is due to them quitting not due to any defunding.

There is no evidence that the increase in violence is due to the lack of police in Minneapolis. None at this point. Some of the officers left due to physical injuries, but the some appear to have left because they either feel unappreciated and some have left because they do not want to work under new conditions that they feel hinder their safety or effectiveness which may include in some cases the ability to act like racist fucks. At least that is what I glean from the reports from local TC papers, guest editorials and letters to the editors.

No dispute here. Thanks for the correction.

 

[ronburgundy]

This 2016 study examined "All fatalities resulting from use of lethal force by on-duty Law enforcement from 2009 to 2012 in all 17 U.S. states using National Violent Death Reporting System data."

Unlike the data the OP is based upon and most of what is posted in this thread, This data source does not rely solely upon reports created by the officers who killed the "suspects".

"NVDRS is a state-based surveillance system that links data on violent deaths (e.g., suicide, homicide, legal intervention) from death certificates; coroner/medical examiner reports; and LE reports in an incident-based, confidential data set. ...Data abstractors in each participating state review investigative findings from each data source and abstract information on incident circumstances and characteristics of victims and officers using standardized coding guidance. NVDRS also includes two narratives generated by the state abstractor containing a brief description of the incident based on information from the coroner/medical examiner and Law enformcement reports."

Major findings related to race:

"Blacks had 2.8 times the rate of deaths by law enforcement compared with whites"


Among those who died due to lethal force by law enforcement:

Blacks were 50% less likely to be armed.

Whites were 16% more likely to have been deemed "a threat to law enforcement.

"the percentage of “suicide by cop” cases was almost seven times higher for whites than blacks" (27% vs. 4% of deaths for each group).

"Suicide by cop" was determined using "Evidence from witness/Law enforcement accounts suggesting that victim was actively suicidal and engaged in life-threatening or criminal behavior directed at Law enforcement to elicit use of lethal force. Evidence of suicidal intent could include: suicidal behavior/threats during incident, suicide note, prior expression of intent/desire to be killed by LE reported by an informant, taunting/asking LE to kill them during the incident."

In sum, this is evidence that blacks are much more likely to be killed by cops, and yet when they are killed they are less likely than whites to be armed, a threat, or trying to use the encounter to commit suicide.

 

[Trausti]

This 2016 study examined "All fatalities resulting from use of lethal force by on-duty Law enforcement from 2009 to 2012 in all 17 U.S. states using National Violent Death Reporting System data."

Unlike the data the OP is based upon and most of what is posted in this thread, This data source does not rely solely upon reports created by the officers who killed the "suspects".

"NVDRS is a state-based surveillance system that links data on violent deaths (e.g., suicide, homicide, legal intervention) from death certificates; coroner/medical examiner reports; and LE reports in an incident-based, confidential data set. ...Data abstractors in each participating state review investigative findings from each data source and abstract information on incident circumstances and characteristics of victims and officers using standardized coding guidance. NVDRS also includes two narratives generated by the state abstractor containing a brief description of the incident based on information from the coroner/medical examiner and Law enformcement reports."

Major findings related to race:

"Blacks had 2.8 times the rate of deaths by law enforcement compared with whites"


Among those who died due to lethal force by law enforcement:

Blacks were 50% less likely to be armed.

Whites were 16% more likely to have been deemed "a threat to law enforcement.

"the percentage of “suicide by cop” cases was almost seven times higher for whites than blacks" (27% vs. 4% of deaths for each group).

"Suicide by cop" was determined using "Evidence from witness/Law enforcement accounts suggesting that victim was actively suicidal and engaged in life-threatening or criminal behavior directed at Law enforcement to elicit use of lethal force. Evidence of suicidal intent could include: suicidal behavior/threats during incident, suicide note, prior expression of intent/desire to be killed by LE reported by an informant, taunting/asking LE to kill them during the incident."

In sum, this is evidence that blacks are much more likely to be killed by cops, and yet when they are killed they are less likely than whites to be armed, a threat, or trying to use the encounter to commit suicide.

Oh, so Asians don't exist? (Or are they white adjacent ) Also, according to that, unarmed whites are more likely to be shot than unarmed hispanics. And men are greatly more likely to be shot than women. Maybe it has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with the rate of crime committed by these demographics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

18,514 law enforcement agencies? Police-caused deaths are in the ballpark of 1000/year.

In other words, most of those agencies have zero deaths. I would be very surprised if the non-reporting agencies were highly concentrated amongst the little places where nothing happened.

"You don't need to know the information because nothing bad happened", is not as great an argument you claim it to be. Also, how did you come about the figure of only 1000...fuckit, nevermind.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's just the small agencies are both the ones most likely not to bother with the reporting and the ones most likely to have zero.

As for 1,000--the data has been discussed on here repeatedly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

The highest profile cases are the ones where the police were in the wrong, but BLM always considers them to be in the wrong even when a reasonable examination of the facts says otherwise.

This right here is true. The issue is BLM is the equivalent of saying all lives matter with the stipulation of staying on the current topic (black people). So they include even circumstances that may later be determined that a black person is in the wrong just to be safe. Put it this way, during the civil rights movement, the protesting was about black people having equal rights, do you think it would have made sense for white people to point out that some slaves were bad people (yes they were a thing) and that on a side note, our white women don't have voting rights what about them? CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT FOR ALL!

What one should do is not decide the case before we have much of any data. If it comes out as a bad shooting then protest. When you assume guilt you turn an awful lot of people off to your message.

Let's just get the main issue addressed first then we can work the rest of the shit out. It's not like the police stopped shooting bad people or stopped locking bad people up because the BLM movement was speaking out. Where do you think the fuel to BLM kept coming from? Ya know those bad people they kept adding to their list of lives that matter that you're here expressing opposition to.

Except they don't actually have many cases. So long as they keep after cases like Michael Brown they're not worth listening to.

 

[ronburgundy]

This 2016 study examined "All fatalities resulting from use of lethal force by on-duty Law enforcement from 2009 to 2012 in all 17 U.S. states using National Violent Death Reporting System data."

Unlike the data the OP is based upon and most of what is posted in this thread, This data source does not rely solely upon reports created by the officers who killed the "suspects".

"NVDRS is a state-based surveillance system that links data on violent deaths (e.g., suicide, homicide, legal intervention) from death certificates; coroner/medical examiner reports; and LE reports in an incident-based, confidential data set. ...Data abstractors in each participating state review investigative findings from each data source and abstract information on incident circumstances and characteristics of victims and officers using standardized coding guidance. NVDRS also includes two narratives generated by the state abstractor containing a brief description of the incident based on information from the coroner/medical examiner and Law enformcement reports."

Major findings related to race:

"Blacks had 2.8 times the rate of deaths by law enforcement compared with whites"


Among those who died due to lethal force by law enforcement:

Blacks were 50% less likely to be armed.

Whites were 16% more likely to have been deemed "a threat to law enforcement.

"the percentage of “suicide by cop” cases was almost seven times higher for whites than blacks" (27% vs. 4% of deaths for each group).

"Suicide by cop" was determined using "Evidence from witness/Law enforcement accounts suggesting that victim was actively suicidal and engaged in life-threatening or criminal behavior directed at Law enforcement to elicit use of lethal force. Evidence of suicidal intent could include: suicidal behavior/threats during incident, suicide note, prior expression of intent/desire to be killed by LE reported by an informant, taunting/asking LE to kill them during the incident."

In sum, this is evidence that blacks are much more likely to be killed by cops, and yet when they are killed they are less likely than whites to be armed, a threat, or trying to use the encounter to commit suicide.

Oh, so Asians don't exist? (Or are they white adjacent ) Also, according to that, unarmed whites are more likely to be shot than unarmed hispanics. And men are greatly more likely to be shot than women. Maybe it has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with the rate of crime committed by these demographics.

Asians are irrelevant to the discussion and account for too few deaths to apply any meaningful stats. Also, racist attitudes are race specific. No theory or data suggests that racists view Asians and blacks the same.

And overall crime rates are irrelevant to these data. The data show that in fact among those who are killed by police, it is whites who are more likely to have a gun, be a threat, and deliberately engage in the crime of attacking officers in order to provoke them into shooting them. General crime rates cannot account for any of that, and it shows that whites who get shot are the one's more likely be engaged in the kinds of criminal behavior mostly likely to result in a justified shooting.

Unsurprisingly, you lack the basic literacy needed to read a simple table, otherwise you'd have noticed the (a) and (b) superscripts which show that there was no significant difference between whites and Hispanics in their likelihood of being unarmed when killed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The number of unarmed people killed by police is insignificantly small. If you really cared about saving lives, you'd notice the things you're not supposed to notice.

And if you're actually after police misconduct it's the George Floyds that are the real issue, not the shootings.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Also right wingers always completely ignore the role poverty plays in crime. But crime can't possibly be a complex thing and is only caused by people I don't like, right?

While that is certainly true, LP's gross exaggeration regarding #BLM indicates that LP doesn't actually get that #BLM doesn't fly off the handle if a black person is killed by the police. #BLM has generally become vocal when unarmed black people are killed. Thankfully, it isn't that common, but still, it is hard to tackle a topic when discussing with a person that has a distorted perception of the truth.

They have protested cases where the guy was definitely armed. BLM decrees anyone who is running not to be a threat--even though sometimes people shoot at those who are chasing them to discourage the chase.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

we do have number arrested:number dead and that's a reasonable proxy for the situation especially as encounters that don't result in an arrest are extremely unlikely to result in the serious use of force.

Deaths per arrest is not a valid stat, b/c it is deflated for blacks due their arrests being inflated by police bias. Blacks are twice as likely to be stopped by the cops while while in public prior to being a suspect in any reported crime, and 4 times as likely to experience use of force during such impromptu "street stops" and in traffic stops. While this happens all over the US, "stop and frisk" policies were so bold as to basically make it a formal policy to stop minorities on the streets and violate their rights.

It is a valid stat. You're totally moving the goalposts by bringing up a real issue as evidence for something it doesn't apply to.

That means the the "arrests" denominator for blacks is inflated with people only arrested because of the racial bias by the cops. That would then artificially reduce their deaths per arrests ratio.

Stop and frisk is not an arrest.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The above does NOT imply that whites are generally more likely to engage in crime. That's irrelevant. What it means is that whites rarely get approached and arrested by cops unless they were engaging in behaviors that warrant being stopped, arrested, and have force used against them, whereas just being black is often the sole basis that triggers this sequence of events.

Stop and frisk is more likely to catch white criminals--most stop and frisks are of people who appear to be out of place. With whites a large chunk of these will be people who came into the inner city to buy drugs.