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Pete Buttigieg

Also, many Republicans in 2016 voted for Trump not because they liked him, but rather that he was "at least not as bad as Hillary." That was a popular and common refrain. Voters just disapproved of and disliked Hillary, more than they did Trump (based on what they knew at the time). People are willing to vote for a candidate that they have doubts and hesitations about, if at least that person (they perceive) is not as bad as the alternative. Given how unpopular Trump is, in a general election we would not have to convince people to vote for Pete because he would be the perfect president, but just that he at least would be better than this current unliked guy.

Don't forget that Trump actually lost the popular vote, even though a great many Democratic voters either failed to come out or were prevented from casting a vote that got counted. Donald Trump's victory was entirely an outcome of the electoral college system. In fact, FiveThirtyEight had given Trump something like a 1-in-3 chance of winning the electoral college, but nothing nearly that good in the popular vote. On most other days other than that election day, Hillary would probably have carried the electoral college, even with the efforts by Comey, Republican smears, and Russian military intelligence to undermine her popularity.

Trump's popularity did surge after the election, but it plummeted within days of his taking office. He can still count on roughly 2 out of every 5 likely voters to support him against any Democrat. So, all he needs to do is mount another smear campaign against the next Democratic candidate by emphasizing weaknesses and attacking strengths. A Buttigieg candidacy would be a godsend for that kind of strategy, especially given that a quarter of the Democratic voters tend to be African Americans and roughly 70% of Latino voters favor Democrats. Those two voting blocks contain a lot of traditionalists and conservatives, who will be targets for false news and voter suppression tactics, especially in swing states. To win a general election, Democrats will need a big turnout in those communities. Buttigieg has already been targeted by political opponents for his negative rep on handling the homeless and racial minorities, so I'm not optimistic about him making a lot of headway there. He is far more likely to turn out the vote in suburbs and among young voters, but that may not be enough.
 
After watching his interview on MSNBC right now he has my fote.

Clearly reasoned with a general understanding and a plan.
 
After watching his interview on MSNBC right now he has my fote.

Clearly reasoned with a general understanding and a plan.

I agree that he comes off really well on TV and in interviews so far. He is articulate, intelligent, and educated. I believe that he would make a good president after getting past the rather daunting learning curve he would need to go through. I still don't see the bright, shining image that he projects now as lasting over the long haul. He has never faced even a statewide election, so I do not believe he is prepared for what will happen at the national level. He has only experienced positive feedback from the news and social media yet, but his popularity is snowballing at the moment. It reminds me of the wild enthusiasm that we all felt for George McGovern, when he jumped into the race Richard "Tricky Dick" Nixon. There was no way that someone who spoke so eloquently and who had the enthusiastic backing of the youth movement was going to fail. Nixon's incompetent attempt to bug the DNC seemed to clinch it. His people were caught red-handed. The public saw clearly that they had a choice between a crook running a corrupt administration and this wonderful senator who carried so many Democratic primaries. A WWII veteran.

When the dust settled, McGovern had won the state of Massachusetts. Nixon had won the popular vote in every single other state in the union. But Nixon did lose Massachusetts. There was that for us to gloat over.
 
He ran for state treasurer in 2010 and lost with 37% of vote.
 
What you don't seem to understand is that to swing Republicans and suppress a large percentage of "conservative" Democrats, a gay President is worse than the alternative.

Which is the point.

Why are we talking about "swing Republicans"? There is no currently existing "swing Republican" who is going to vote for a Democrat candidate no matter who it is. Any "swing Republican" that might have ever existed has already changed party affiliate.

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Buttigieg comments about the Notre Dame fire and says they should have used flying water tankers in french.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0sLDhY7Acs[/YOUTUBE]

I'm hoping your comment is meant as some sort of joke? Because it's not true.
 
After watching his interview on MSNBC right now he has my fote.

Clearly reasoned with a general understanding and a plan.

I agree that he comes off really well on TV and in interviews so far. He is articulate, intelligent, and educated. I believe that he would make a good president after getting past the rather daunting learning curve he would need to go through. I still don't see the bright, shining image that he projects now as lasting over the long haul. He has never faced even a statewide election, so I do not believe he is prepared for what will happen at the national level. He has only experienced positive feedback from the news and social media yet, but his popularity is snowballing at the moment. It reminds me of the wild enthusiasm that we all felt for George McGovern, when he jumped into the race Richard "Tricky Dick" Nixon. There was no way that someone who spoke so eloquently and who had the enthusiastic backing of the youth movement was going to fail. Nixon's incompetent attempt to bug the DNC seemed to clinch it. His people were caught red-handed. The public saw clearly that they had a choice between a crook running a corrupt administration and this wonderful senator who carried so many Democratic primaries. A WWII veteran.

When the dust settled, McGovern had won the state of Massachusetts. Nixon had won the popular vote in every single other state in the union. But Nixon did lose Massachusetts. There was that for us to gloat over.

Agreed. We can't really tell until the debates. He appears balanced. Sanders is becoming a ranting extremist. From the little I heard her say so far I like her. Attitude and demeanor.

The big question is how he would appear head to head with Trump in a debate.
 
Here's his CNN town hall from last month.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR57_ugSyxU[/YOUTUBE]
 
On Morning Joe (MSNBC show), they mentioned that Pete will be back on for another interview with them tomorrow morning. I do not know what time during the show, but probably one of their first segments given how much of a story this guy has become.
 
Why are we talking about "swing Republicans"?

Because we don't want them to swing to Trump.

There is no currently existing "swing Republican" who is going to vote for a Democrat candidate no matter who it is.

As I have already shown, that's not true. There is upwards of 40% potential Republican swing (i.e., those who disapprove of Trump combined with those who only partially approve of Trump):

Screen Shot 2019-04-17 at 7.31.30 AM.png

Even if we take just the combined "disapprove" percentages, that's a potential swing of 11% among Republicans alone. Factor in half of the 53% combined disapproval percentages from the Independent column (as Independents are more left-leaning overall than right) and we have an even larger potential swing.

Note that swing need not strictly be crossover voters. If any percentage simply doesn't vote, that works to our advantage among Republicans and our detriment among Democrats.

But if faced with the alternative to Trump being a gay President, it is almost a certainty that those numbers--among Independents as well--will vanish. Then add in the 40% or so potential non-voters among Dem "conservatives" (e.g., seniors and minorities) and we have a significant problem right out of the gate that need not be a problem at all.

Not to mention the even more frightening fact that among Evangelical Protestants, evidently 18% are Democrats and Catholics are much higher.

There is no reason to run a gay candidate at this point in history and just because he is gay is even less of a reason. Even if Buttigieg had ten years of experience and an impeccable progressive track record in Congress or as a Governor of a State and a well crafted bipartisan-friendly policy platform--none of which is the case--it still would not be the best time in our history for an openly gay man to run for President due entirely to what we've seen over the past two years.

Buttigieg's biggest appeal is to Millennial voters. Millennial voters generally don't vote. They talk a good game, but they didn't turn out in 2016 OR in 2018 in anywhere near the numbers that would be necessary to overcome the very likely percentage of "conservative" Dems that would stay home.

Yes, there was a record surge in the midterms--and hopefully that trend will continue in 2020--but if they turn out while some 40% of "conservative" Dems do not, then it's all for nothing.

It's not personal. There are 70 million baby boomers--seniors--and another 57 million Gen Xers (for a total of 127 million voters over the age of 35), with only 62 million Millennials (i.e., aged 20-35).

As PEW noted:

While the growth in the number of Millennials who are eligible to vote underscores the potential electoral clout of today’s young adults, Millennials remain far from the largest generational bloc of actual voters. It is one thing to be eligible to vote and another thing to actually cast a ballot.
...
Turnout among Millennials was higher in 2016 – 51%. But again, that’s significantly lower than the 61% of the electorate who voted. In order for their voting clout to match their share of the electorate, roughly 61% of Millennials would have to have turned out to vote in 2016.

So let's say 2020 is a blowout for Millennials--and the driving force is "first gay President"--and they manage to hit that 61% turnout. Millennials are, of course, not ALL Democrats. Again turning to PEW:

Democrats enjoy a 27-percentage-point advantage among Millennial voters (59% are Democrats or lean Democratic, 32% are Republican or lean Republican).

So 61% of 62 million is 37.8 million total turnout. Of that, 59% vote Dem, or 22 million votes.

Now look at the boomers and Gen Xers. 127 million total, with a similar 61% turnout rate, or 77 million who actually vote. About half of both groups lean left, so we're also looking at about 38 million Dems that would actually vote (or stay home).

If 40% don't vote, that's only 23 million votes to add to the Millennial Dem vote, or a total of only 45 million votes. But, of course, that's the worst case scenario, so let's cut that in half (20% don't vote) and we still only have a total of 52.8 million votes.

But let's say it's only 10% "conservative" Dems who stay home because of a gay candidate. That gives us only a total of about 56 million votes.

Trump received almost 65 million votes in 2016. Even if we shave off a good 10% Republicans who just don't vote (in spite of the alternative being a gay President), that still puts Trump back in the WH with (ironically) almost three million votes to spare.

So, even in a scenario where Millennials turnout in historic numbers and the fact that Dems have a gay candidate only impacts us adversely by 10% vote suppression, we still lose the WH to Trump.

And, again, for an issue that need not be an issue this time around. Buttigieg should absolutely throw his hat in the ring and lay the groundwork for a future bid for himself or any other gay candidate, no question about it.

But we shouldn't choose him as our candidate to beat Trump for these very real reasons. It's unfair and shouldn't be the case. But it is.

And it's not going to change because we all talk about it, but, again, when you add into the mix that as a politician Buttigieg has NO policy platform (other than to try and run on the idea of "no platform" being a positive) and he's only ever been a Mayor and then only of a small city in Indiana, there is even less reason to choose him period, let alone as our candidate against Trump.

So, setting aside the fact that his only Dem voter appeal is that (a) he's gay and (b) he's articulate, he doesn't even approach "not qualified." He's not even qualified enough to be categorized as "not qualified."

Which means we're back to the fundamental and only reason to vote for him; he's gay. That's not a legitimate reason in and of itself just in general, let alone at this point in history.

Any "swing Republican" that might have ever existed has already changed party affiliate.

That's not what "swing" refers to.
 
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So, setting aside the fact that his only Dem voter appeal is that (a) he's gay and (b) he's articulate,...

Why think that are only his only attributes? He also is smart, which maybe you were overlapping within your "articulate" adjective. They are distinct though. Rush Limbaugh is articulate, he is not smart. Hannity and Tucker are articulate, but they are not smart. They are divisive as well, whereas Pete is also trustworthy and inviting. That does not mean he would not be critical of bad ideas or policies while on the campaign trail, just that he makes it clear that he does not want to just improve his own vote tally, he is genuinely interested in improving the country as well and will not go to the depths of insulting others as a method.

MSNBC put together a contrast of how Trump handled hecklers at his rallies versus how Pete handled some recently. Night and day. Trump mocked them and was semi-suggestive or joked that it was okay to physically beat them up. Pete used the heckler's rhetorical Biblical line to rally his own audience.


Koy, it certainly is not the case that Pete is a perfectly safe choice to go up against Trump, and that he is without flaws or disadvantages. The argument instead though is that out of the field of likely Dem candidates, he stands the best chance. We can pick other candidates as well and pick apart various liabilities they would have, and it is important to do so, but at the end of the day we would have to choose which candidate has the fewest liabilities and greatest assets, *relative to all the candidates that are available*. So do you think there is a safer candidate to run than Pete, and if so who, and why? Who do you think is the safer alternative at beating Trump than Pete, and those of us who are supporting Pete should steer towards instead? I assume you are not saying there is some other as-of-yet-unidentified candidate who is without flaws and potential liabilities, and we are overlooking him/her.
 
What you don't seem to understand is that to swing Republicans and suppress a large percentage of "conservative" Democrats, a gay President is worse than the alternative.

He is not merely a "gay President" though. He would be a "gay, smart, honorable, articulate, trustworthy, genuine, experienced as an executive, anyone-but-Trump, and also an outsider who would shake-up Washington" President. You seem to be isolating his gayness as the defining factor though in how people vote. That is just not the case. People care more about other issues than his gayness.

So why risk it this round? What is so urgent about this election that it be a gay man's turn,

Who is voting for him simply and only and entirely because he is gay? There are plenty of gay people who are not and would not have the chops of Pete Buttigieg, and they would not be getting the attention that Pete currently is if they were running. Pete is qualified for the job (at least relative to the other contenders) because of all his other attributes. Gayness is not the foundation of his campaign. All the other issues and personality attributes are which are more relevant to voters and how they vote.


...let alone a gay man who has zero experience and openly boasts that he has no policy platform, nor will have one on "day one"?

Can you please provide the link for that quote? I would like to read the fuller context. Thanks.

It seems to be just boiling down to "he's gay, so that's better." That's not a reason nor even logical.

It is also not true, so irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Koy, it certainly is not the case that Pete is a perfectly safe choice to go up against Trump, and that he is without flaws or disadvantages. The argument instead though is that out of the field of likely Dem candidates, he stands the best chance.
Why? People talk about the guy like he has been on their radar for years. I bet half of America didn't even know South Bend exists... and the other half only knew because the University of Notre Dame is there.
We can pick other candidates as well and pick apart various liabilities they would have, and it is important to do so, but at the end of the day we would have to choose which candidate has the fewest liabilities and greatest assets, *relative to all the candidates that are available*.
The guy is a mayor of a very small city, for 6 years.
So do you think there is a safer candidate to run than Pete, and if so who, and why?
When are we going to mention the 'q' word? You know... qualified.
Who do you think is the safer alternative at beating Trump than Pete, and those of us who are supporting Pete should steer towards instead? I assume you are not saying there is some other as-of-yet-unidentified candidate who is without flaws and potential liabilities, and we are overlooking him/her.
I think Harris is already going to be the candidate. She has a great deal of experience in law enforcement, and a minimal amount of experience in the Senate. Not the best combination, but workable. Cory Booker could work, but he has Trump issues, as in has buddied with the Trumps. Then there is John Hickenlooper and Steve Bullock, who are the Governors, of whom have had better luck in Presidential elections: Carter, Reagan, Clinton, W.

We need someone that can run the United States. The US isn't South Bend. South Bend isn't even Indianapolis! Sure, it stands taller than Mishawaka, but is that the measuring stick now?
 
Why? People talk about the guy like he has been on their radar for years. I bet half of America didn't even know South Bend exists... and the other half only knew because the University of Notre Dame is there.

The guy is a mayor of a very small city, for 6 years.

When are we going to mention the 'q' word? You know... qualified.

Those are replies to my points, but not rebuttals to them. Just a bit of empty verbosity.

I think Harris is already going to be the candidate. She has a great deal of experience in law enforcement, and a minimal amount of experience in the Senate. Not the best combination, but workable.

So all this hoopla about how Pete is not perfect and is not a flawless candidate because he is gay, is unnecessary to this discussion. The point is that he is not the best combination of all potential attributes, but at least one of the best workable combinations that we have available right now (perhaps the best chance, when all his attributes are factored in and we do not focus on just his goddamn gayness).
 
He is not merely a "gay President" though. He would be a "gay, smart, honorable, articulate, trustworthy, genuine, experienced as an executive, anyone-but-Trump, and also an outsider who would shake-up Washington" President.

There is only one element that is actually relevant in everything you posted; 'experience as an executive" which he does not have. Being the Mayor of a town of 100k in Indiana is utterly meaningless in regard to being in any way experienced enough to be President. That's like saying you once met a celebrity, therefore you are a celebrity.

And there is no such thing as "shaking up Washington." That is a well-worn rhetorical gambit that always fails, because, of course, "Washington" is not some sort of monolithic entity. The only thing that ever ends up happening to anyone--including Trump--who thinks in those terms is that they are immediately bitch slapped into compliance.

Obama was supposed to "shake up Washington" as well and within his first few days he found himself at odds with his own party over healthcare and Republicans over git-mo. He had to compromise on healthcare and never was able to fully close git-mo in the eight years he served. It's still open in fact.

Our government was deliberately set up by the founding fathers to NEVER allow anyone to "shake it up." Precisely the opposite in fact, because of their deep distrust of government.

You seem to be isolating his gayness as the defining factor though in how people vote.

Because that is precisely how it will be defined by the Republicans. Once again, this is a job interview, not a crusade. The ONLY thing that matters is beating Trump.

To do that we must pick the best candidate to beat Trump. Just being "not Trump" won't cut it. Every single candidate is "not Trump." Being the Mayor of a tiny town in Indiana won't cut it. Being gay not only won't cut it, it cuts against us.

You need to address the numbers, not the sentiment.

Who is voting for him simply and only and entirely because he is gay?

Anyone at this point, because, again he not only has no experience but he has also openly boasted that he has no platform and will not have one even on "day one."

Regardless, the point, once again, isn't who will vote for him; it's who won't vote for him.

There are plenty of gay people who are not and would not have the chops of Pete Buttigieg, and they would not be getting the attention that Pete currently is if they were running.

He's getting attention for two reasons; one, on the left, he's the first openly gay candidate to run and two, on the right, he's the first openly gay candidate to run and the GOP would like nothing more than to pit Trump (or whoever it ends up being) against an openly gay liberal.

So you are going to see a LOT about Buttigieg pushed by the Russians clandestinely and by the GOP openly. Which should tell you all you need to know.

You need to think of your enemy, not your friends.

Pete is qualified for the job (at least relative to the other contenders) because of all his other attributes.

Seriously? Every Democrat so far running is smart, honorable, articulate, trustworthy, genuine, far more experienced than Pete, and anyone-but-Trump. I left off the "shake up Washington" for reasons already provided.

Plus, NONE of the other contenders have done anything so monumentally stupid as to boast that he has no platform and won't even have one on day one. So, exactly what are you voting for that sets him apart from every other candidate with far more experience?

Gayness is not the foundation of his campaign.

It most certainly is, whether he intends it or not and most certainly would be in regard to the Republican response, regardless. But more worrying is the effect it might have on the very large percentage of "conservative" Dems, which you seem to be avoiding.

Again, this NOT personal nor does it have ANYTHING TO DO with Democrats, other than the large percentage at risk of simply not voting if Millennials stupidly somehow manage to put Buttigieg in the front.

As we saw with Sanders, among young voters in particular, primaries are NOT being used as a measure of who can beat the opposition in spite of the fact that they absolutely should be entirely about who the best person is to beat the opposition.

So, once again, we run a risk of a large turnout among Millennials and a large stay-at-home among a very large percentage of older Democrats in the primaries because of his gayness alone.

And then we lose the WH again.

...let alone a gay man who has zero experience and openly boasts that he has no policy platform, nor will have one on "day one"?

Can you please provide the link for that quote? I would like to read the fuller context. Thanks.

It was provided earlier by pyramid, but here it is again: All About Pete. The quote comes from this section:

VICE: I listened to you talk today. On the one hand, you definitely speak very progressively. But you don’t have a lot of super-specific policy ideas.

BUTTIGIEG: Part of where the left and the center-left have gone wrong is that we’ve been so policy-led that we haven’t been as philosophical. We like to think of ourselves as the intellectual ones. But the truth is that the right has done a better job, in my lifetime, of connecting up its philosophy and its values to its politics. Right now I think we need to articulate the values, lay out our philosophical commitments and then develop policies off of that. And I’m working very hard not to put the cart before the horse.

VICE: Is there time for that? They want the list. They want to know exactly what you’re going to do.

BUTTIGIEG: I think it can actually be a little bit dishonest to think you have it all figured out on day 1. I think anybody in this race is going to be a lot more specific or policy-oriented than the current president. But I don’t think we ought to have that all locked in on day 1.

It evidently comes from this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZHSe9ckCo

It seems to be just boiling down to "he's gay, so that's better." That's not a reason nor even logical.

It is also not true, so irrelevant to the discussion.

I obviously disagree, but regardless, if it's not true in regard to Democrat appeal it most certainly is relevant to the discussion in regard to both Democrat dissent and Republican advantage.

Once again, this isn't personal. This is politics.
 
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Why? People talk about the guy like he has been on their radar for years. I bet half of America didn't even know South Bend exists... and the other half only knew because the University of Notre Dame is there.

The guy is a mayor of a very small city, for 6 years.

When are we going to mention the 'q' word? You know... qualified.

Those are replies to my points, but not rebuttals to them. Just a bit of empty verbosity.
What experience does he have that indicates he can manage a 325 million population and handle foreign policy stuff, especially the mess he'll need to clean up after Trump?

I think Harris is already going to be the candidate. She has a great deal of experience in law enforcement, and a minimal amount of experience in the Senate. Not the best combination, but workable.
So all this hoopla about how Pete is not perfect and is not a flawless candidate because he is gay, is unnecessary to this discussion.
I don't see how his sexual orientation is even relevant to his discussion. Is Harris married, gay? I have no idea, don't care.
The point is that he is not the best combination of all potential attributes, but at least one of the best workable combinations that we have available right now (perhaps the best chance, when all his attributes are factored in and we do not focus on just his goddamn gayness).
Talk about "empty verbosity". You saying he is the "best chance" is entirely void of any defense. He talks well and is intelligent? What will he be able to do about a coming recession or be able to fix the riffs with our allies left by our, hopefully, previous President? What influence will he have with Congress? How will he get things done or is the US entering a new period of impotent Presidents? Granted, I think only Biden has clout with Congress, but I sure the heck don't want him as President.
 
I don't think the fact that Pete is gay is necessarily a big problem. The problem is that he has very limited experience, and he's very young. Being smart doesn't necessarily equate with being a good leader. I think all of the Democratic candidates are smart.

Of course, I will vote for the Democratic nominee, but I won't be voting for Pete in the primaries. To be honest, I'm not that impressed with any of the candidates yet, although some of them haven't been given enough publicity to form an opinion. I'm also annoyed at how often Pete brings up religion. I don't care what he believes. I just don't like it being used to attract voters. The conservatives are guilty of that. Must liberals stoop to their level? Anyway, most people aren't even paying much attention to the election yet, so a lot of things could happen in the next year.
 
I don't think the fact that Pete is gay is necessarily a big problem.

The numbers suggest otherwise. If it even resulted in a 5% voter suppression among Dems over all (i.e., Dems that normally would vote, but decided not to turn out), that could be all Trump would need to win another 4 years.

Hell, if conditions were in any way similar to 2016, all it would take is 1% voter suppression among Dems.
 
JFK had to jump a religious hutdlr with peotestants wantng to know if he would but the pope above the country. In the day it was a serious issue.

His being gay may be harder to overcome.

On FOX recently I warched Juan Williams whop I thought was more liveral say the bibles says hate the sin not the sinner regarding gays. I was surprised to hear him say that.

The evangelical types I knew were livid over Obama. To some he was the anti Christ who would change us to communism. I ended up on email conspiracy list for the propaganda. A gay president would make them crazy. We have a baker who won't make a cake for a gay wedding. Vote for a gay president? They would liken it to the end of the world. Literally.

That being said if he has enough communication skill he might be able to counter it enough to make a difference. He has to make a Christian to Christian connection. As a Christian use scripture.
 
I don't think the fact that Pete is gay is necessarily a big problem. The problem is that he has very limited experience, and he's very young. Being smart doesn't necessarily equate with being a good leader. I think all of the Democratic candidates are smart.

Of course, I will vote for the Democratic nominee, but I won't be voting for Pete in the primaries. To be honest, I'm not that impressed with any of the candidates yet, although some of them haven't been given enough publicity to form an opinion. I'm also annoyed at how often Pete brings up religion. I don't care what he believes. I just don't like it being used to attract voters. The conservatives are guilty of that. Must liberals stoop to their level? Anyway, most people aren't even paying much attention to the election yet, so a lot of things could happen in the next year.
He doesn't have much a choice, any more than Kennedy or Romney had a choice; if people are going to obsess over your religious outlook, they'll do so whether or not you respond. Leaning in is the only viable option. I can easily see why this is irritating to non-Christians, but it is a fact still true of electoral politics in this country that "purposefully vague Christianity" is demanded of all candidates, and the first serious homosexual candidate will be scrutinized more intensely than most.
 
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