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Pluto flyover by New Horizons

That's interesting, and I'd like to learn more about it. Can you recommend a link please?

Sure.

Thanks again, but I only needed a basic understanding rather than enough for a doctorate in collisions and effects. I'll wait for Iznomneak's reply - perhaps he'll explain in more elementary terms. Unless I've misinterpreted what you said about momentum in a vacuum, to my simple way of thinking the asteroid was certainly in momentum - if it was travelling at 280.000mph who could doubt it? - and the craft must have been 'in momentum' even faster in order to catch up with it.
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Thanks again, but I only needed a basic understanding rather than enough for a doctorate in collisions and effects.
Did you miss out on primary school for some reason? This is stuff you should have learned there.
I'll wait for Iznomneak's reply - perhaps he'll explain in more elementary terms.
Perhaps. I don't have the patience for teaching you all of basic physics; your ignorance is apparently too profound for us to converse at all.
Unless I've misinterpreted what you said about momentum in a vacuum,
Given your history, it would shock me if you had not.
to my simple way of thinking the asteroid was certainly in momentum
Yup; if you think that sentence structure is valid, then you haven't understood anything. Momentum is a property of physical objects; objects 'have momentum', they cannot be 'in momentum'.
- if it was travelling at 280.000mph who could doubt it?
This (perhaps rhetorical) question is word salad. It is just nonsense. Each word means something, but the sentence does not.
- and the craft must have been 'in momentum' even faster in order to catch up with it.
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Either you are being deliberately stupid in an attempt to provoke a reaction; or you are simply to uneducated to take part in any conversation on this topic. Either way, I can't continue to care about your nonsense.
 
I can't prove my theories any more than you can.

So you say, but you are wrong.

The proof is that the data broadcast from numerous probes and landers that went beyond the moon can be detected by radio astronomers world wide. The signals can't be faked, Any discrepancy such as you suggest would be quickly detected. Given the sheer scale of conspiracy needed to maintain and cover such monumental fraud, the very idea is laughable.
 
One can't prove a negative - it's up to you to convince me I'm wrong.
What is this, performance art?
It's not up to anyone to prove you wrong.
You haven't offered anything that needs disproof. Just speculation and scorn.
 
Cerberus, where's your proven and tangible evidence for the claims you've made about CGI graphics, jobs for the boys, that all NASA (and other space agencies) probes beyond the moon don't actually exist, about the hiring process at NASA, etc.?

Why do you refuse to provide any evidence for any of your many claims after you specifically stated that you only believe things that you have proven and tangible evidence for?

One can't prove a negative - it's up to you to convince me I'm wrong.
Your positive claims about the hiring process at NASA and what happens to employees who discover the fraudulent behaviour going on there weren't negative claims.

Your positive claims that all the images coming from New Horizons are CGI is not a negative claim.

You have positively claimed that the only things you believe are things that are tangible and provable, yet you believe these things about NASA and New Horizons that you are incapable of proving an iota of evidence for?

You're desperately backtracking because you don't have anything but empty claims and a desire to simply argue with people. You're just trolling.

Where is your tangible and provable evidence that the images for your claims about the hiring process at NASA and the CGI nature of New Horizons imagery
 
I can't prove my theories any more than you can.
That's incorrect.

You don't have 'theories.'

Theories are the best explanations one can devise for the observations one makes. Your position is one of denial of observations, with no sound basis offered for the denial.

No theory. Not even a hypothesis.


Just anger. Which is boring...
 
One can't prove a negative - it's up to you to convince me I'm wrong.
It really isn't up to me to convince you of anything. I've learned that convincing conspiracy theorists of anything is pretty much a waste of time as they have generally fallen down the rabbit hole and have completely stopped making any sort of sense. One thing they typically do is have wildly inconsistent standards of evidence. On the one hand they will believe the silliest things for the flimsiest of reasons (in your case there doesn't seem to be any reasons at all, or at least none you're willing or able to articulate) while maintaining ridiculously high standards for being proven wrong, which allows them to dismiss everything as simply part of the conspiracy coverup.

What I'm doing is asking you what convinced you you were right in the first place with your claims about NASA and New Horizons.
 
Unless I've misinterpreted what you said about momentum in a vacuum, to my simple way of thinking the asteroid was certainly in momentum - if it was travelling at 280.000mph who could doubt it? - and the craft must have been 'in momentum' even faster in order to catch up with it.
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Yes. Rosetta, the spacecraft carrying the Philae lander to the comet, was sent through a series of gravity assist maneuvers to gain the speed necessary to catch up with comet 67P. Our space agencies have been performing gravity assist maneuvers for around half a century, and they are an effective means of boosting a spacecraft's speed. Essentially, the craft is steered close enough to a planet or large body to achieve a kind of whiplash effect.

Rosetta underwent three flybys of Earth and one of Mars to reach a relative velocity of over 2500 feet per second, which allowed the probe to catch up with the comet. Then it used its own engine to brake into a stable orbit around the comet at about 26 feet per second, and it will be in orbit well into next year.

 Rosetta_(spacecraft)#Deep_space_manoeuvres

New Horizons also used Jupiter for a gravity assist, shaving (as I recall) three years off the total time necessary to reach Pluto.
 
Cerbereus, let's look at this from a hypothesis vs. explanation standpoint. You say your stance is merely a negative position, but given the weight of what you are suggesting, it actually comes out to be a stronger claim that needs positive justification. Here's why. In order to accept that all probe data from beyond our moon is faked, several incredible things would have to be true. Others have pointed this out. It would have to be the case that scientists across the entire world are involved in a conspiracy that goes back generations and requires the silence of millions of people.

Now, before you start about whistleblowers, think about history. There have been many known whistleblowers for conspiracies less elaborate than what you suggest. You mentioned Assange, but think about Watergate as well. That was an operation of much smaller scope, and involving far fewer people, than what you suggest is going on. Yet, Mark Felt (a.k.a. "Deepthroat") still came forward as an informant and told his story. For context, this happened around the same time as Mariner 9 arrived at Mars and took ~7000 low-resolution, black-and-white photographs.

What you're saying is, at a time when the US government couldn't keep someone from coming forward about breaking into the headquarters of a political party, they managed somehow to create thousands of fake Martian images without the aid of digital tools, all of which correspond to what had previously been seen by telescopes, and to this day (40 years hence!) nobody has analyzed the images and shown they were fraudulent. And that's just one space probe coming from one country. Do you understand how easy it is to spot fake photographs these days?

Not only that, but two years after Mariner 9 took its pictures, the Soviet probes Mars 4 and Mars 5 made it to Mars and took pictures of their own. Curiously, they matched up with what had already been returned by Mariner 9. It would be extremely easy to tell if they were faked using different methods than the Mariner 9 pictures, unless you are suggesting that the US and the Soviet Union secretly collaborated to release fake Mars pictures in the mid-1970's. Again, long after the collapse of the Soviet Union and well into the era of digital photographic analysis, nobody with Photoshop and an internet connection has even suggested that the Soviet images of Mars were anything other than authentic. This includes amateur astronomy buffs, hardcore paranoid libertarians, and even people who say the Moon landings were a hoax. EVEN MOON LANDING DENIERS still admit we have sent probes past the moon.

If you can fit that into your narrative of massive international cooperation, you still have to explain all the other planets, moons, and asteroids that have been photographed by multiple sources that agree with each other, none of which show the usual hallmarks of a fake image. They would have had to maintain this secret through multiple Presidential terms in the US, regime changes in Russia and political unrest in China, for longer than I have been alive. This would require a spectacular level of planning and organization, during decades when some people thought war among these powers may be on the horizon. Meanwhile, secrets of less complicated organizations run by the same powers still managed to go public. The Pentagon Papers. The existence of the NSA. Clinton's sex scandal. How did these comparatively minor secrets manage to get leaked, when in the background a much more complex conspiracy was happening that nobody has ever produced a shred of evidence for? Especially considering the same people were in charge of keeping all these secrets. Why have they slipped up time after time across the past 40 years, right up until Edward Snowden (who is alive and well and on vacation), but never let a peep about the most convoluted scheme in human history reach any news outlet, in the freaking age of the internet?
 
I'm just trying to figure out how a mindset that seems to come straight from M. Night Shyamalan's The Village could have withstood common sense for so long.
 
Cerberus, where's your proven and tangible evidence for the claims you've made about CGI graphics, jobs for the boys, that all NASA (and other space agencies) probes beyond the moon don't actually exist, about the hiring process at NASA, etc.?

Why do you refuse to provide any evidence for any of your many claims after you specifically stated that you only believe things that you have proven and tangible evidence for?

One can't prove a negative - it's up to you to convince me I'm wrong.

You aren't even trying to rebut the evidence we are presenting.
 
........ even people who say the Moon landings were a hoax. EVEN MOON LANDING DENIERS still admit we have sent probes past the moon.
Of course... simple logic. NASA couldn't have gotten that photo of the face on Mars proving that the advanced civilization of Atlantis came here from Mars if NASA hadn't sent a probe there to take it.
 
To slow down from 14 km/sec one would need to increase mass of the probe by a factor of exp(14./4.4)=24.09.
4.4 is a exhaust velosity for H2+02 engines.
So everything would have to be at least 25 times heavier (in reality 50 times). Nobody have such rockets.

It's much worse than that. LH2/LOX isn't space-stable, deep space uses hydrazine. Also, you have no fuel tanks.

The only viable way to get to land/orbit Pluto in reasonable amount of time is nuclear propulsion.

It depends on how you define "nuclear"--it would be a major undertaking but I think we could do it with ion/nuclear batteries.

Mercury is pretty close but it has the similar problem where you have to slow down somehow and unlike Pluto there is no option of slow speed launch because it's inner planet and potential energy is lower there compared to Earth. So it took very fancy trajectory with bunch of gravity assists using Venus and Mercury itself to get to orbit it.

Plenty of solar power to run an ion engine.
 
Thanks for that, but I'm simply unable to get my head around 'the value of the occultation of Earth'. Does it involve using radio waves? If so, who is the transmitter for radio-wave occultation/bending experimentation, New Horizons or Earth? High-gain as Earth-based dishes may well be, there’s got to be a significant wide 'beam' by the time Pluto is reached.

Your response appears to be coming from the comment section of the article:

Bannerdog April 6, 2015 at 6:43 am I can certainly understand the value of Pluto’s (or Charon’s) occultation of the sun, in terms of acquiring useful data/images. The value of the occultation of Earth, however, is less clear to me. Does this involve the use of radio waves? If so, “who” is the transmitter for “radio-wave occultation/bending” experimentation, New Horizons or Earth (or both)? [As high-gain as Earth-based dishes may be, there’s got to be a pretty wide “beam” by the time Pluto is reached. However, that’s probably irrelevant.] - See more at: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astr...ting-to-pluto-040320154/#sthash.J2yv9otE.dpuf

Are you Bannerdog? Or are you lifting questions from the comment section of the article?

But another question (well you did say 'feel free to ask'). Returning to the Philae: you gave me the scenario whereby if I jumped in an equatorial locale (where the Earth is rotating at c. 1000mph), I'd come down on precisely the same spot; but would I not come down on a different spot if I could jump say, a mile high? The reason I ask is because (as I understand it) the lander first had to locate the asteroid, then catch up with it - which begs the question If the asteroid is travelling at 280.000mph, how fast would the craft itself need to be travelling to catch up with it? - then need to slow down to match the speed of the asteroid at the moment prior to landing, then presuming the 'bounce' timeline was measured in terms of minutes the craft would have lost momentum whereas the asteroid didn't, meaning that the craft would need a restoration of thrust in order to catch up with the asteroid again? So presuming the required alteration would need to be via radio signal from the control centre, which evidently takes some hours, how much further did the asteroid travel before the lander was able to make its final landing?

That was a discussion you were having with someone else, I'll let them address it.
 
It's much worse than that. LH2/LOX isn't space-stable, deep space uses hydrazine. Also, you have no fuel tanks.
I used best possible and practically used before propellant to calculate best possible scenario.
The only viable way to get to land/orbit Pluto in reasonable amount of time is nuclear propulsion.

It depends on how you define "nuclear"--it would be a major undertaking but I think we could do it with ion/nuclear batteries.
Yes, this is how nuclear is defined.
Mercury is pretty close but it has the similar problem where you have to slow down somehow and unlike Pluto there is no option of slow speed launch because it's inner planet and potential energy is lower there compared to Earth. So it took very fancy trajectory with bunch of gravity assists using Venus and Mercury itself to get to orbit it.

Plenty of solar power to run an ion engine.

Not for Pluto.
 
I used best possible and practically used before propellant to calculate best possible scenario.
The only viable way to get to land/orbit Pluto in reasonable amount of time is nuclear propulsion.

It depends on how you define "nuclear"--it would be a major undertaking but I think we could do it with ion/nuclear batteries.
Yes, this is how nuclear is defined.

I thought you meant something like Nerva as nuclear propulsion.

Mercury is pretty close but it has the similar problem where you have to slow down somehow and unlike Pluto there is no option of slow speed launch because it's inner planet and potential energy is lower there compared to Earth. So it took very fancy trajectory with bunch of gravity assists using Venus and Mercury itself to get to orbit it.

Plenty of solar power to run an ion engine.

Not for Pluto.

But note that I was replying to a paragraph talking about the difficulty reaching Mercury.
 
I used best possible and practically used before propellant to calculate best possible scenario.
The only viable way to get to land/orbit Pluto in reasonable amount of time is nuclear propulsion.

It depends on how you define "nuclear"--it would be a major undertaking but I think we could do it with ion/nuclear batteries.
Yes, this is how nuclear is defined.

I thought you meant something like Nerva as nuclear propulsion.
it's about specific impulse, and ion engines is a way to get it.
Mercury is pretty close but it has the similar problem where you have to slow down somehow and unlike Pluto there is no option of slow speed launch because it's inner planet and potential energy is lower there compared to Earth. So it took very fancy trajectory with bunch of gravity assists using Venus and Mercury itself to get to orbit it.

Plenty of solar power to run an ion engine.

Not for Pluto.

But note that I was replying to a paragraph talking about the difficulty reaching Mercury.
But note that I was talking about Mercury to illustrate my point about Pluto.
 
Cerberus, this is a NASA engineer's account of his work and motivation. One could find similar motivations and passion for science and space exploration in many other people working at NASA, ESA, and the space agencies of other countries. Given that you believe that they're actually deceiving people, why do you think their motivations are? Preserve a career in a colossal fraud, after they joined NASA for the adventure, the science, and the frontiers of knowledge?

The theory you propose - namely, the massive fraud, which as others and I have already shown, would have to involve scientists from many countries and several governments -, can be established to be false beyond a reasonable doubt, not only on the basis of physics (as other posters have been explaining), but also human psychology. Your alternative is psychologically not believable.

Could you at least click on the link, and learn a bit more about some of the people you're defaming?

Even if you fail to realize that you're defaming them, you should realize that, and stop doing it. If you managed to convince a significant number of people, you would be hurting innocent people, and out of negligence - it's negligent not to conclude that your theory is false.
 
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