Police Kill Man Attempting to "Open Carry" ..wait for it...

[ZiprHead]

Now that Ritchie has recanted, does Crawford get to be just an innocent guy walking in a WalMart?

Of course not. He's [Whisper]black[/Whisper]...

 

[George S]

Now that Ritchie has recanted, does Crawford get to be just an innocent guy walking in a WalMart?

Of course not. He's [Whisper]black[/Whisper]...

He would be just as innocent if he were white. The policeman was told of a man (was his color on the 911 call?) with a gun. If he claimed to be a former Marine on that tape that would add to the policeman's trust that it was a dangerous situation. The trigger was a phone call reporting "facts" that we're not the actual case.

But still I doubt race would be an issue were the victim white and policeman black. Many black folk have extreme racial sensitivity -- and proclaim racism first. The presumption of racism, to these few, is a given until disproven.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

If a black cop shot a white customer who was walking around WalMart with a bb gun, I can think of at least five posters here and one major "news" network all of whom would screaming their heads off. That's to say nothing of rightwing radio or the rightwing news sites.

And it would take about two seconds for the mainstream media to follow suit.

 

[George S]

If a black cop shot a white customer who was walking around WalMart with a bb gun, I can think of at least five posters here and one major "news" network all of whom would screaming their heads off. That's to say nothing of rightwing radio or the rightwing news sites.

And it would take about two seconds for the mainstream media to follow suit.

of course it would be covered. But not "Black policeman shoots white costumer because he's white."

 

[Toni]

Of course not. He's [Whisper]black[/Whisper]...

He would be just as innocent if he were white. The policeman was told of a man (was his color on the 911 call?) with a gun. If he claimed to be a former Marine on that tape that would add to the policeman's trust that it was a dangerous situation. The trigger was a phone call reporting "facts" that we're not the actual case.

But still I doubt race would be an issue were the victim white and policeman black. Many black folk have extreme racial sensitivity -- and proclaim racism first. The presumption of racism, to these few, is a given until disproven.

The questions remain:

Would Crawford have seemed threatening to the 911 caller if Crawford had been white?

Would Crawford have seemed to be threatening to the responding officers if he had been white?

If it had been me in that Walmart: a short middle aged white woman, talking on my cell phone and absent mindedly holding a BB gun I had picked up from a store shelf? I'm pretty sure I would not have immediately realized it if I were considered a danger.

 

[George S]

He would be just as innocent if he were white. The policeman was told of a man (was his color on the 911 call?) with a gun. If he claimed to be a former Marine on that tape that would add to the policeman's trust that it was a dangerous situation. The trigger was a phone call reporting "facts" that we're not the actual case.

But still I doubt race would be an issue were the victim white and policeman black. Many black folk have extreme racial sensitivity -- and proclaim racism first. The presumption of racism, to these few, is a given until disproven.

The questions remain:

Would Crawford have seemed threatening to the 911 caller if Crawford had been white?

I wasn't there,I can't read that caller's mind. Perhaps race was part of his danger estimate. Perhaps being different in some other way contributed. If I were to report a man with a gun who I considered a danger I would surely include race (if obvious enough to help with ID.)

Would Crawford have seemed to be threatening to the responding officers if he had been white?

I don't know, I wasn't there. There are many a white dude who if being reported as "A man with a gun" I would feel threatened. Have you ever been in a gunfight? Most shots miss. Unless it is an automatic weapon, as was reported.

If it had been me in that Walmart: a short middle aged white woman, talking on my cell phone and absent mindedly holding a BB gun I had picked up from a store shelf? I'm pretty sure I would not have immediately realized it if I were considered a danger.

 

[Ford]

Of course not. He's [Whisper]black[/Whisper]...

He would be just as innocent if he were white.

He would be much more alive if he were white.

Not long ago, at a certain ranch out in Nevada, a bunch of white folks were waving around real guns that they'd brought with them for the expressed purpose of shooting law enforcement officers. Most of them did not even know the rancher who owned the place, and some had come from many miles away armed for a confrontation with federal agents.

That's what's mind-blowing. Here in America, you can carry around a semi-automatic rifle modeled after a military weapon, publicly declare that you'd like to use it to gun down a cop or federal agent, and it isn't a big deal so long as you're not so black.

Wave around a toy gun (modeled to kinda look like a real gun) in a store while being black? Shot on sight.

 

[laughing dog]

Of course not. He's [Whisper]black[/Whisper]...

He would be just as innocent if he were white. The policeman was told of a man (was his color on the 911 call?) with a gun. If he claimed to be a former Marine on that tape that would add to the policeman's trust that it was a dangerous situation. The trigger was a phone call reporting "facts" that we're not the actual case.

The police are supposed to trained to discern real threats from fake ones. And they are not supposed to execute people who are not real dangers. These ones failed on both counts.

But still I doubt race would be an issue were the victim white and policeman black. Many black folk have extreme racial sensitivity -- and proclaim racism first. The presumption of racism, to these few, is a given until disproven.

And many white people dismiss claims of racism without any firsthand knowledge of the situation under the presumption that black people don't know what they are talking about.

 

[George S]

He would be just as innocent if he were white.

He would be much more alive if he were white.

How do you know that?

Not long ago, at a certain ranch out in Nevada, a bunch of white folks were waving around real guns that they'd brought with them for the expressed purpose of shooting law enforcement officers. Most of them did not even know the rancher who owned the place, and some had come from many miles away armed for a confrontation with federal agents.

That's what's mind-blowing. Here in America, you can carry around a semi-automatic rifle modeled after a military weapon, publicly declare that you'd like to use it to gun down a cop or federal agent, and it isn't a big deal so long as you're not so black.

Wave around a toy gun (modeled to kinda look like a real gun) in a store while being black? Shot on sight.

Wave around a toy gun that looks like an assault rifle in a store while being reported as a man with a gun by a witness familiar with guns. Shot after a warning.

 

[Sabine Grant]

George, IMO, Ford has been demonstrating the reality of the vast disparity of response from law enforcement. In view of an event (Nevada showdown) where there can be no confusion when it comes to threat assessment, threat manifesting itself via the presence of armed individuals (no possible confusion as to the nature of those firearms) , threat manifesting itself as to the stated intentions by those armed individuals.

Then we have another event of one individual who only appears to be armed and only appears to be a threat to public safety in a store. Yet the response from law enforcement is to muzzle that one individual as he attempts to explain "it is not real" by shooting him and in a manner that could only be fatal. Reflecting once more the mentality of "shoot first, ask questions later". In fact no questions were asked...It was assumed that this one individual could only be a real threat and should be gunned down. To also add, that the use of a taser was the viable option rather than a measure resulting in the termination of an innocent human being's life.

Did the victim's ethnicity play a role in how the caller perceived him as a real threat? I lean towards a yes because it is widely recognized that the mere sight of a young Black male tends to trigger fear, while the parties who experience fear associate "young Black male" to violence. I will assume you are familiar with the "young Black male walking" stigma.

We often speak of racial profiling when addressing law enforcement bodies. However, we tend to neglect racial profiling of a "subconscious" nature occurring within the civilian population. How so often, a person's ethnicity becomes a trigger for a course of thoughts association to a variety of crimes or intent to commit a crime.

I do not think it is a course of thoughts folks choose to experience. IMO it is some sort of "Pavlov dog" response.

 

[George S]

Indeed, Sabine, we see the world through lenses of experience. My experience with black folk has been as just people. Their experiences color their perceptions as much as mine do me. But I have had no experiences with blacks that I have not had with whites. I have experienced racial prejudice but one time, while blacks probably have a few more times than that.

I would hope I judge people by the content of their character.

on a personal note my sister and I are at least talking.

 

[Toni]

He would be much more alive if he were white.

How do you know that?

Not long ago, at a certain ranch out in Nevada, a bunch of white folks were waving around real guns that they'd brought with them for the expressed purpose of shooting law enforcement officers. Most of them did not even know the rancher who owned the place, and some had come from many miles away armed for a confrontation with federal agents.

That's what's mind-blowing. Here in America, you can carry around a semi-automatic rifle modeled after a military weapon, publicly declare that you'd like to use it to gun down a cop or federal agent, and it isn't a big deal so long as you're not so black.

Wave around a toy gun (modeled to kinda look like a real gun) in a store while being black? Shot on sight.

Wave around a toy gun that looks like an assault rifle in a store while being reported as a man with a gun by a witness familiar with guns. Shot after a warning.

Excuse me: reported by someone who claimed to be familiar with guns but who has been proven to be a gross exaggerator of fact if not outright liar. The time between 'warning' and execution is being called sharply into question. Since video tape is being withheld we must ask ourselves: if it had been me, distracted while talking on the phone, knowing I was doing nothing wrong and had zero ill intentions, how long would it have taken me to realize that the police or anybody thought I was a threat? And then compared that with my reaction time and how long it took officers who really are familiar with firearms to shoot me down? Did they see a toy gun and mistake it for the real thing? Or did they see a black man and see danger?

I know that I have had the experience of not realizing that a patrol officer was trying to pull me over when I knew I was traveling under the speed limit on a country road. Turns out that was the problem: I was going slow so my mother could take in the fall colors. He told me that lots of people who are driving under the influence drive slowly. Thank heavens he didn't decide to shoot out my tires in the thirty seconds or so it took me to pull over. And thank heavens my skin is white.

 

[Deepak]

So video has been made public at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk

In it we can see all of the children Crawford was waving the BB gun at in the deserted aisle corner while he talked on the phone.

Apparently he did drop the gun, but I don't actually hear any actual commands prior to the shooting (the ones after can be heard clearly). Grand jury concludes it was justified...

 

[RavenSky]

So video has been made public at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk

In it we can see all of the children Crawford was waving the BB gun at in the deserted aisle corner while he talked on the phone.

Apparently he did drop the gun, but I don't actually hear any actual commands prior to the shooting (the ones after can be heard clearly). Grand jury concludes it was justified...

There is simply no way that was a justified shooting, but I am not at all surprised

 

[Rhea]

So video has been made public at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk

In it we can see all of the children Crawford was waving the BB gun at in the deserted aisle corner while he talked on the phone.

Apparently he did drop the gun, but I don't actually hear any actual commands prior to the shooting (the ones after can be heard clearly). Grand jury concludes it was justified...

I don't see what they say they saw.

 

[Mumbles]

Well, the grand jurors are obviously stupid. That was a flat-out murder, caught on tape.

 

[Derec]

Apparently he did drop the gun, but I don't actually hear any actual commands prior to the shooting (the ones after can be heard clearly). Grand jury concludes it was justified...

From what I have seen in that video, he only dropped the gun after shots were fired. Immediately before the shots were fired he actually started lifting the gun which is what probably caused the police to open fire. Then he runs for cover but returns and runs toward the gun.

So I can definitely see why "no bill" was returned.

 

[Ford]

From what I have seen in that video, he only dropped the gun after shots were fired.

You mean "after he was shot repeatedly."

Kinda hard to hang on to a toy gun after you've been riddled with bullets.

 

[Derec]

You mean "after he was shot repeatedly."

Reportedly he was struck twice, only one of the shots being (eventually) lethal. And he still managed to duck for cover and (inexplicably) return toward the gun as the police advanced.

Kinda hard to hang on to a toy gun after you've been riddled with bullets.

I would not call two gunshots "riddled" and in any case that was my point. He did not drop the gun in compliance with any police commands - in fact he raised the gun immediately before being shot. Rather, he dropped the gun involuntarily as a result of being shot.

And finally, we have already established upthread that it wasn't a toy, but a dangerous, and possibly lethal, pellet gun. Furthermore, the police fired their shots at a distance which made it difficult if not impossible to differentiate between a real assault rifle and a pellet gun made to resemble it.

 

[George S]

You can hear "get down" about 1/2 second before gunfire. The victim is simultaneously swinging the gun.

1/2 second is not long enough to wait. On the other hand, had it been as real as it looked, and it was being raised to fire, 1/2 second longer would have been too long. It is all about the expectations of the police.

I still blame the one who called it in.