Police Kill Man Attempting to "Open Carry" ..wait for it...

[Tom Sawyer]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways, why brandish a weapon where one shouldnt be brandished.

Yes. The solution to all this racism is if black people just avoid doing dangerous, scary things. For instance: picking up an almost-gun at a location that sells guns.

The obvious intention, what with having guns on the shelves and all, is that people pick them up and walk around with them. But this idiot should have realized the intention is that white people do that. He should have realized that if a black man does it it's very threatening. If he'd just exercised a little common sense he'd still be alive.

I mean, maybe the feeling in the black community is that people get sick of being seen as dangerous animals, they get sick of worrying about whether any little thing will put their life in danger by making them appear to be a threat, and a lot of them just want to act like normal people.

Their own fault for adopting such a dangerous attitude!

Ya, it is kind of the same as saying that the solution to domestic violence is for wives to always make sure that their husband's dinner is ready on time and to make sure that they don't say or do anything to piss him off.

 

[Stavian]

AREN'T ASSAULT RIFLES ILLEGAL?

If Assault rifles/automatic weapons are illegal, what is the likelyhood that a random black guy deep inside of the SPORTING GOODS section at the back of Walmart/Dicks/Outdoor World is toting a REAL (and light brown/TAN colored) 3' long semi-automatic rifle?







Background on the Dayton/Ohio region:

There were race riots in the city NEXT to Dayton, in 2001:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001

They were trying to arrest an unarmed black guy (the guy had a dozen misdemeanors and a dozen traffic citations). The guy ran and was eventually cornered. He tried to pull up his baggy pants, and was shot close range because the police thought he was trying to reach for a possible weapon (but he was unarmed).
The police officer was put on trial, but was found to be not guilty. When the not guilty verdict was announced, there were riots.

Also, air soft toys ARE toys, considering the only place you usually play with them is outdoors in the woods, in wargames.

Unboxing store items, to inspect check them out before buying is not totally unusual. We've all done that occasionally.

Also, airsoft guns are a very expensive hobby, so unboxing one to get a sense of the ergonomics of carrying for 8+ hours during a battle is completely normal.
I'm a stickler for ergonomics, that's why I always go for the P90 when I airsoft. Very comfortable grip, and the whole thing is very compact also.




http://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-MK-177-.17-Caliber-Air-Rifle/23795252
http://www.replicaairguns.com/posts/tag/mk-177
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSmkt0o31EM

You have to manually pump the air gun several times (doing so looks dorky and unrealistic) in order to shoot it.


That particular gun fires BBs, or pellets but I imagine you would typically use plastic BBs. That particular retail box might come with some steel BBs. But most airsoft guns fire PLASTIC biodegradable BBs that only hurt a little when they hit you (like getting hit with a rubberband thawk).






Saying anything additional would be premature, we have to wait for the official investigation/reconstruction of what happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) She's much more likely to be lying than the Wal-Mart employees. She's an interested party, they aren't.

2) Him saying "it's not real" is actually a strike against him--he's defending his position rather than complying.

3) The cop telling him to get on the ground after shooting is reasonable. If he's not on the ground he's still a threat.

What "Walmart employees"?

What evidence do you have that he wasn't attempting to comply as he was saying those words. Do you have a video?

And where has anyone said he shouldn't get to the ground. His girlfriend said they were shouting at him to get down after he was already down from being shot.

Basically, in the absence of any evidence to support your assumptions, it sounds to me like you are defending "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality with police.

I'm defending shoot first when someone points a gun at a cop even if it turns out to be a fake gun.

- - - Updated - - -

The point is the cop isn't going to immediately know it's not a real gun.

It is their responsibility to find out before killing an innocent civilian.

That's not realistic.

Think before you point something that looks like a real gun!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Brandish: 1
:* to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brandish

Until someone produces actual factual evidence that Crawford "brandished" anything, I'd strongly suggest that anyone who wishes to have their contributions to this thread taken as anything other than victim-blaming really should stop using the word.

Pointing it at people is brandishing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways, why brandish a weapon where one shouldnt be brandished.

Yes. The solution to all this racism is if black people just avoid doing dangerous, scary things. For instance: picking up an almost-gun at a location that sells guns.

The obvious intention, what with having guns on the shelves and all, is that people pick them up and walk around with them. But this idiot should have realized the intention is that white people do that. He should have realized that if a black man does it it's very threatening. If he'd just exercised a little common sense he'd still be alive.

The intent is that people pick them up and examine them, not walk around with them.

If he had just exercised a little common sense and not gone pointing at people and then not dropping it when told to he would still be alive.

This has nothing to do with white vs black.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The point is the cop isn't going to immediately know it's not a real gun.

It is their responsibility to find out before killing an innocent civilian.

That's not realistic.

Good point. If anyone shouldn't have to protect people from gun violence, it is definitely the Police.

Think before you point something that looks like a real gun!

Did he point the gun at people or the police or are we just being told by a couple of people and the shooters who have a vested interest in protecting their jobs that are saying it?

 

[laughing dog]

The point is the cop isn't going to immediately know it's not a real gun.

It is their responsibility to find out before killing an innocent civilian.

That's not realistic.

I know a couple of police officers and they all agree it is their duty and their job to be find out whether they are dealing with an innocent civilian or a potential criminal.

 

[RavenSky]

What "Walmart employees"?

What evidence do you have that he wasn't attempting to comply as he was saying those words. Do you have a video?

And where has anyone said he shouldn't get to the ground. His girlfriend said they were shouting at him to get down after he was already down from being shot.

Basically, in the absence of any evidence to support your assumptions, it sounds to me like you are defending "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality with police.

I'm defending shoot first when someone points a gun at a cop even if it turns out to be a fake gun.

please provide evidence that Crawford pointed a gun at a cop, fake gun or otherwise.

The point is the cop isn't going to immediately know it's not a real gun.

It is their responsibility to find out before killing an innocent civilian.

That's not realistic.

Think before you point something that looks like a real gun!

Again, provide actual evidence - not your assumption - that Crawford pointed "something that looks like a real gun!" (exclamation point yours). All we have is that Crawford started to turn, and was then shot down.

Your claim that Crawford "point[ed] something that looks like a real gun!" is a prejudicial embellishment, very similar to what Derec has been doing throughout this thread.

 

[RavenSky]

Brandish: 1
:* to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brandish

Until someone produces actual factual evidence that Crawford "brandished" anything, I'd strongly suggest that anyone who wishes to have their contributions to this thread taken as anything other than victim-blaming really should stop using the word.

Pointing it at people is brandishing.

You have zero evidence that Crawford "pointed" the non-gun at cops, and you have zero evidence that Crawford "bandished" the non-gun at anyone.

What we have is scooter woman's claim that Crawford had the cell phone wedged between his shoulder and ear, talking to someone on the phone, while he was cradling the non-gun in his arms messing with it, making it go "click click click" - in other words, nothing that sounds remotely like a man shaking or waving a weapon menacingly.

I do agree with the Attorney General on this point:

“We are seeking to understand why, if this BB gun could not be distinguished from a real gun, why was it not locked up with the other firearms,” he said. “…We’re just seeking answers at this point…

I will also note, in some defense of the police, that scooter woman's husband specifically told the 911 operator that Crawford had a gun, and that he was loading it. Since we know that it was not a gun, we also know that Crawford could not have been loading it.

Personally I put 100% of the blame for these two deaths on the heads of the husband & wife who called 911 with their mostly false report, thereby setting this entire tragedy in motion.

 

[RavenSky]

Yes. The solution to all this racism is if black people just avoid doing dangerous, scary things. For instance: picking up an almost-gun at a location that sells guns.

The obvious intention, what with having guns on the shelves and all, is that people pick them up and walk around with them. But this idiot should have realized the intention is that white people do that. He should have realized that if a black man does it it's very threatening. If he'd just exercised a little common sense he'd still be alive.

The intent is that people pick them up and examine them, not walk around with them.

If he had just exercised a little common sense and not gone pointing at people and then not dropping it when told to he would still be alive.

This has nothing to do with white vs black.

So do you think that the overwhelmingly white "right to carry" people should be shot dead when their carry their genuine rifles into big box stores, restaurants and airports? Shot down before they are even given a chance to comply with police orders - because that is exactly what it sounds like happened here, even by the description from scooter woman.

 

[Unbeatable]

What we need to avoid is speculating or embellishing what few facts have been reported while using race-baiting language to demonize the victim or his family.

Can people still speculate/embellish while using race-baiting language to demonize the cops, the people who called the cops, etc?

It's just that it seems to me that if you take away the demonizing and the race-baiting, you take away most people's real motives for wanting to post in this thread in the first place. There's not actually much to say about this story, from a rational perspective. The investigation is underway. The facts'll be in eventually. In the meantime, people are going to exploit the story to grind their respective pre-existing ideological axes.

Brandish: 1
:* to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brandish

Until someone produces actual factual evidence that Crawford "brandished" anything, I'd strongly suggest that anyone who wishes to have their contributions to this thread taken as anything other than victim-blaming really should stop using the word.

Doesn't this strike you as a meaningless warning? The battle lines were drawn long before this man even died. It was already a foregone conclusion which posters would make "victim-blaming" comments and which posters would see those comments as victim-blaming. Nobody whose opinion matters is on the other side of the argument.

 

[Rhea]

I keep seeing these excuses for why crawford deserved to be shot and I keep wondering why this guy was not...





Look how interesting he is, pointing his actual loaded gun AT FEDERAL AGENTS!

 

[The Paul]

Yes. The solution to all this racism is if black people just avoid doing dangerous, scary things. For instance: picking up an almost-gun at a location that sells guns.

The obvious intention, what with having guns on the shelves and all, is that people pick them up and walk around with them. But this idiot should have realized the intention is that white people do that. He should have realized that if a black man does it it's very threatening. If he'd just exercised a little common sense he'd still be alive.

The intent is that people pick them up and examine them, not walk around with them.

If he had just exercised a little common sense and not gone pointing at people and then not dropping it when told to he would still be alive.

This has nothing to do with white vs black.

Oops, I guess he should have examined it, decided to make his purchase, then teleported it out of the store and to his home like you're supposed to do.

 

[The Paul]

It's just that it seems to me that if you take away the demonizing and the race-baiting, you take away most people's real motives for wanting to post in this thread in the first place.

Yes, it's such a fucking shame we're "demonizing" these cops. I mean, all they did was kill an innocent man who was out shopping. What have they really done to deserve all this criticism?

I mean, it's possible they're not really racists and they're just so dangerously incompetent they killed a guy for no reason at all. We should give them the benefit of the doubt, here.

 

[Toni]

The intent is that people pick them up and examine them, not walk around with them.

If he had just exercised a little common sense and not gone pointing at people and then not dropping it when told to he would still be alive.

This has nothing to do with white vs black.

Oops, I guess he should have examined it, decided to make his purchase, then teleported it out of the store and to his home like you're supposed to do.

He had no business even looking at anything remotely resembling a firearm while black.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Yes. The solution to all this racism is if black people just avoid doing dangerous, scary things. For instance: picking up an almost-gun at a location that sells guns.

The obvious intention, what with having guns on the shelves and all, is that people pick them up and walk around with them. But this idiot should have realized the intention is that white people do that. He should have realized that if a black man does it it's very threatening. If he'd just exercised a little common sense he'd still be alive.

The intent is that people pick them up and examine them, not walk around with them.

If he had just exercised a little common sense and not gone pointing at people and then not dropping it when told to he would still be alive.

This has nothing to do with white vs black.

I am starting to think you wouldn't find that American slavery had anything to do with black and white. Nor Jim Crow. Nor Jackie Robinson joining the Dodgers. Nor the march from Selma to Montgomery. Not even the stripes on a zebra.

 

[Unbeatable]

It's just that it seems to me that if you take away the demonizing and the race-baiting, you take away most people's real motives for wanting to post in this thread in the first place.

Yes, it's such a fucking shame we're "demonizing" these cops. I mean, all they did was kill an innocent man who was out shopping. What have they really done to deserve all this criticism?

I mean, it's possible they're not really racists and they're just so dangerously incompetent they killed a guy for no reason at all. We should give them the benefit of the doubt, here.

What does your criticism actually achieve? What is your goal here? That's the point, not what the cops or the innocent man they murdered "deserve". "Deserve" never motivated anybody to do anything; it's just a buzz word people pull out to rationalize what they already wanted to do. What do you want to do? What is there to do here, that isn't essentially masturbation? You're just little strings of text screaming into a void. That goes for your side, and that goes for Loren/Derec's side. This is absurd. Think about what you're doing. What are you doing?

 

[Derec]

The guy ran and was eventually cornered. He tried to pull up his baggy pants, and was shot close range because the police thought he was trying to reach for a possible weapon (but he was unarmed).

Sagging kills. It also looks really retarded.

Also, air soft toys ARE toys, considering the only place you usually play with them is outdoors in the woods, in wargames.

This was not an airsoft rifle.

- - - Updated - - -

Until someone produces actual factual evidence that Crawford "brandished" anything, I'd strongly suggest that anyone who wishes to have their contributions to this thread taken as anything other than victim-blaming really should stop using the word.

The definition you posted is exactly what the witnesses described.

- - - Updated - - -

... then you should stop looking at people sideways. Stupid thug just had it coming.

He probably wasn't a thug. Just stupid.

 

[Derec]

Was the victim in the aisle with the Skittles?

Did he want to give anyone some <snip>whoop ass<snip>?

 

[Derec]

A 22 year old father died as a result. That's known as a real life consequence. 3 children will grow up without their father because of the conclusions of strangers.

Interesting fact that. He managed to knock up his baby mama three times by the age of 22 without figuring out that he needed to wrap it up next time. Not exactly genius material. So I find it less surprising that he likewise didn't figure out waving a realistic looking not-a-toy gun around would be threatening and that he probably should drop it when ordered to do so by the police.