Police Kill Man Attempting to "Open Carry" ..wait for it...

[fast]

Race is only an issue when demeanor is consistent with disposition.

 

[Derec]

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford was "brandishing" the weapon. Not even the most prejudicial *witness* statement says he was "brandishing" it.

Actually they do. Do you even know what brandish means?

Derec has zero evidence as to what department this air-rifle was actually in at this particular store. He only has his biased assumptions, which he is now repeating as if they are facts.

Actually multiple news stories (like this one) say that it wasn't kept in the toy section. Which makes sense, as it wasn't a toy!

A check of the Beavercreek Walmart on Wednesday showed it doesn’t have toy guns in the toy section, but does have real guns in glass cases and realistic-looking BB guns in the sporting goods section, including one BB gun box that was open.

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford "unpacked" the air-rifle. That is again Derec's biased assumption that he is now repeating as fact.

See above. These guns are kept in boxes and an opened box was found.

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford was "waiving it around" - even the *witness* statement says he had it cradled in his arms.

Police had said John Crawford, 22, waved a rifle at customers Tuesday night and was fatally shot when he wouldn't drop the weapon.

Ohio attorney general: Man fatally shot by police in Wal-Mart store was waving air rifle

Derec's repeated use of the term "baby mama" is pure unadulterated race-baiting - as is his use of "thug" or "thuggish" and his butchering of black victim's names

"Baby mama" is a very common slang term which fits here very well as it allows one to distinguish between her and the girlfriend. You appear not to have realized they were two different people which further underscores the usefulness of the term. As far as "thug", there is nothing racial about that term. As to "butchering black victim's names" where have I butchered the name "John Crawford". Seems like a perfectly ordinary name to me.

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford unpacked anything from its box, but here he is embellishing the facts to blame the dead victim.

I guess you do not think the fact that these air rifles are kept in boxes and the fact that an empty box was found is evidence?

Derec again embellishing in a prejudicial manner with his use of the word "brandishing". For someone who is allegedly such a stickler for the proper use of words, Derec consistently chooses them to blame the dead victims.

My use of brandishing is consistent with the witness statements. They describe Crawford as pointing the gun toward people, including children, in a threatening manner.

Derec also has zero evidence that Crawford "failed to comply with police orders to drop it".

Yes we do.

We do have two witness statements that the shots came immediately after the commands, so it sounds more like Crawford was not given time to comply. But Derec chooses to blame the dead black victim by portraying events as "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it."

No, the witness statement you are probably thinking of doesn't say that but it does say that Crawford turned around.

Derec is again race-baiting with his use of "baby mama" instead of the young woman's actual name.

It's a useful term to distinguish her from the girlfriend.

He could have left it as "girlfriend" but he had to add four extra words in to continue with his race-baiting.

No I could not, as they are two different individuals (but I guess they all look the same to you )
The girlfriend was in the store (but in a different part and did not see the shooting) while the baby mama was on the phone with Crawford but wasn't in the store.

Derec race-baiting with his comments about grammar and comments about Leecee's name.

It was a different poster commenting on her name. But the grammar part stands.

Derec embellishing the facts with his claim that "we know that it... was not sold in the toy aisle". We "know" no such thing. That has been Derec's speculation, not a fact presented in this case so far.

It has been reported in multiple places that the gun was not kept in the toy section, contrary to baby mama's claims. It also makes sense, since it wasn't a toy gun.

Moreover, it is even possible that LeeCee (or Crawford) was mistaken about the department the air-rifle was it. At my local Target, the toy and sports departments are side-by-side and tend to overlap. But Derec immediately, prejudicially and predicatably leaps to the accusation that the dead victim's girlfriend is a liar.

It is possible she was mistaken. But remember, she wasn't there and had no way of knowing where he picked up the gun from. So why did she feel the need to declare, as a fact, which department he picked up the gun from? I think it's to make him appear as innocent as possible. I would call that a lie.

Derec embellishes the facts by claiming LeeCee is a liar because DEREC assumes that her use of the phrase "next thing I know" somehow "implies" a specific period of time.

It implies something B immediately following A. Not after 10 or 15 minutes.

Derec is race-baiting with his use of the word "shyster" for "lawyer".

No, it's merely a term for dishonest lawyers. It's origin is Yiddish and I do not presume that it's very likely they will hire a Jewish lawyer.
Use of slang is not "race baiting" you know. Race baiting is saying that Crawford was shot because he is black despite there being zero evidence for that.

In Derec's very long history on this board and it's predecessors, Derec has only ever used the word "shyster" for a lawyer hired by a black family, with the lawyer typically being also black.

Evidence for this assertion?

This, along with his constant, consistent use of "baby mama" and various forms of "thug" to describe black people, and only black people, goes along with Derec's purposeful butchering of black victim's names is creating a long and consistent pattern of race-baiting on Derec's part. I, for one, am sick of it.

LeeCee is Crawford's baby mama. Some people, black, white or otherwise, are thugs but only calling black thugs that is somehow considered politically incorrect. And I did not butcher "John Crawford" so that's rather irrelevant here.

Frankly, Derec's own choice of words and arguments throughout this thread make it very very clear that there really is no other explanation other than race. None of the rest of us even need to say anything at all. Derec has already made that case clearly for us.

How so. I was just referring to a white man's hypothetical baby mama. That proves the term and my use of it is not racial.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...
The idiot was waving it around, a policeman told him to drop it and he didn't.

I am curious now, what is the norm that is lawful for lawfully carrying a weapon? specifically what behavior..
like it is lawful to carry a firearm as long as you don't wave it around?

In open carry states, yes, you can carry it. When you go waving it around in what looks like a threat you have gone too far, though.

One of the basic rules of gun safety is that you never let a gun point (even by simply sweeping across) at something you're not willing to destroy.

The cop challenged him, rather than drop it he said it wasn't real and turned towards the cop. A cop is *NOT* going to listen to a claim a weapon is fake--his actions look like someone trying to kill a cop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

it is lawful to carry a firearm as long as you don't wave it around?

Basically, yes.

White guy walks into an airport with a loaded rifle and accidentally points it at two passengers: gets arrested.
Black man walks into Walmart, picks up a toy gun on sale there, accidentally points it at two shoppers: shot on sight.

Black guy fails to drop a realistic weapon when told to. He had his chance. If a cop tells you to drop a weapon, drop it immediately. Non-compliance will likely get you shot whatever your skin color is.

 

[Derec]

The man who is distracted, with a toy gun in his hand,

Again, not a toy gun. Until you get that fact through your thick skull I do not think it's fruitful to reply to anything else you write.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The cop challenged him, rather than drop it he said it wasn't real and turned towards the cop. A cop is *NOT* going to listen to a claim a weapon is fake--his actions look like someone trying to kill a cop.

Eh. They still should have given him a second chance to drop the gun.

I mean, if cops kick in the door right now and shout for you to back away from the pedophile site, are you certain you won't protest, 'It's not a pedophile site!' as your most immediate response?
I think most people are going to try to protest that the cop has the wrong idea, esp. if they're caught by surprise.

Or at least, i would prefer a world where cops took a second to make sure the situation is as they apprehend it before using lethal force.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'd like to see this police force's official 'conditions of deadly force' definition.

In the Navy, we basically couldn't shoot to kill until someone was dead. Him still holding a weapon when told to drop it is not a condition of deadly force. Not a sane one, anyway. Unless he's actively pointing it at someone, aiming to shoot. Deadly force usually isn't authorized until lesser conditions have been met. Asking him to set it down is a lesser condition, but maybe asking a second time? With a 'DROP IT OR WE'LL SHOOT!' warning?

I think it's not just not dropping it but turning towards the cop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it." Yes yes yes, I know I know... you will trot out these quotes from the stalkers *witnesses*



But his girlfriend reports

that she heard him address someone and say “it’s not real,” at which point he was shot and then someone (presumably police officers) yell at him to “get on the ground,” after he’d already been shot.

http://bearingarms.com/dayton-walmart-shooting-innocent-man-swatted-death/2/

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

1) She's much more likely to be lying than the Wal-Mart employees. She's an interested party, they aren't.

2) Him saying "it's not real" is actually a strike against him--he's defending his position rather than complying.

3) The cop telling him to get on the ground after shooting is reasonable. If he's not on the ground he's still a threat.

 

[Sabine Grant]

"Young Black male"...it says it all.The stigma targeting young Black males. The reaction from some folks to the sight of a young Black male. Had it been me, middle aged White woman, I contend that no one would be portraying me as "brandishing" or "waving it at". There would be outrage about me being shot and killed by the police. And the disabled woman on her scooter would not have felt compelled to freak out and generate such drama which ended up tragically for this young Black male.

I am rather certain that mocking vocabulary applied to my ethnic group and my loved ones would not be used.

So many times and with a fatal outcome, negative attention was brought upon the victim of a shooting because he was a young Black male. The type of angst based anticipation of criminal intentions associated with the sight of young Black male, the type clearly manifested by Zimmerman when he first saw Martin, is the very product of some Americans being conditioned by the negative stereotyping targeting young Black males.

 

[Frikki]

Wow suprise! Racist shitcock is racist shitcock.

 

[fromderinside]

The man who is distracted, with a toy gun in his hand,

Again, not a toy gun. Until you get that fact through your thick skull I do not think it's fruitful to reply to anything else you write.

It is not a toy. http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pump/30117

But, its a pump gun. You have to pump it ten times to get the rated velocity for pellets 750ft/sec or BBs 800ft/sec. It takes at least 5 pumps to get decent trajectory control. It is rated for pest control or target shooting and not for small animal hunting.

So if a guy is walking around Walmart or any other store waving this things he's not really gonna be in the position of doing any damage. To drop in pellets one has to drop the muzzle down to a 45 degree angle to get them to drop into the chamber. Every shot uses up some to the potential energy stored by pumping so its not really a weapon at all. Of course that depends is you think a guy waving a three quarter inch PVC pipe around in the store as one waving around a weapon. We need to get a grip.

I understand all the prancing around about 'weapon'. Its just that almost every one who has a new do-dad likes to live his fantasy though the do-dad as soon as he gets it, including adults. If we called every woman who dressed to feature her assets a whore and meant it as an accusation about one's intentions maybe what you are saying would be meaningful.

Oh shit. many do think women who feature sexual attributes are 'asking for it'.

We've got to grow up.

Its not on the ones who are enjoying themselves to act adult. Its on those who are responding to them to act adult.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again, not a toy gun. Until you get that fact through your thick skull I do not think it's fruitful to reply to anything else you write.

It is not a toy. http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pump/30117

But, its a pump gun. You have to pump it ten times to get the rated velocity for pellets 750ft/sec or BBs 800ft/sec. It takes at least 5 pumps to get decent trajectory control. It is rated for pest control or target shooting and not for small animal hunting.

So if a guy is walking around Walmart or any other store waving this things he's not really gonna be in the position of doing any damage. To drop in pellets one has to drop the muzzle down to a 45 degree angle to get them to drop into the chamber. Every shot uses up some to the potential energy stored by pumping so its not really a weapon at all. Of course that depends is you think a guy waving a three quarter inch PVC pipe around in the store as one waving around a weapon. We need to get a grip.

I understand all the prancing around about 'weapon'. Its just that almost every one who has a new do-dad likes to live his fantasy though the do-dad as soon as he gets it, including adults. If we called every woman who dressed to feature her assets a whore and meant it as an accusation about one's intentions maybe what you are saying would be meaningful.

Oh shit. many do think women who feature sexual attributes are 'asking for it'.

We've got to grow up.

Its not on the ones who are enjoying themselves to act adult. Its on those who are responding to them to act adult.

The point is the cop isn't going to immediately know it's not a real gun.

 

[RavenSky]

The man who is distracted, with a toy gun in his hand,

Again, not a toy gun. Until you get that fact through your thick skull I do not think it's fruitful to reply to anything else you write.

. Not a real gun either! And you have zero evidence that Crawford opened the box it was in. You have zero evidence he was "brandishing" it - a word with a very specific meaning - go look it up.

Your continued and repeated use of "baby mama" makes you sound like a racist. Either that or you are "trying to get a rise out of the PC crowd" as you fully admit doing with your other bogus ghetto talk. For the record, purposely trying to "get a rise" out of fellow members is called "goading" and is against TOU.

You have zero evidence that LeeCee lied about anything. You have zero evidence that Craford was even given time to comply.

Just like every other case with a dead black victim, you are embellishing and race-baiting every step of the way.

Until YOU get it through your thick skull that most of us are not going to put up with your racist misogynist bullshit anymore, you are going to get called on your bullshit every time you open your mouth.

 

[RavenSky]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it." Yes yes yes, I know I know... you will trot out these quotes from the stalkers *witnesses*



But his girlfriend reports http://bearingarms.com/dayton-walmart-shooting-innocent-man-swatted-death/2/

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

1) She's much more likely to be lying than the Wal-Mart employees. She's an interested party, they aren't.

2) Him saying "it's not real" is actually a strike against him--he's defending his position rather than complying.

3) The cop telling him to get on the ground after shooting is reasonable. If he's not on the ground he's still a threat.

What "Walmart employees"?

What evidence do you have that he wasn't attempting to comply as he was saying those words. Do you have a video?

And where has anyone said he shouldn't get to the ground. His girlfriend said they were shouting at him to get down after he was already down from being shot.

Basically, in the absence of any evidence to support your assumptions, it sounds to me like you are defending "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality with police.

 

[RavenSky]

It is not a toy. http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pump/30117

But, its a pump gun. You have to pump it ten times to get the rated velocity for pellets 750ft/sec or BBs 800ft/sec. It takes at least 5 pumps to get decent trajectory control. It is rated for pest control or target shooting and not for small animal hunting.

So if a guy is walking around Walmart or any other store waving this things he's not really gonna be in the position of doing any damage. To drop in pellets one has to drop the muzzle down to a 45 degree angle to get them to drop into the chamber. Every shot uses up some to the potential energy stored by pumping so its not really a weapon at all. Of course that depends is you think a guy waving a three quarter inch PVC pipe around in the store as one waving around a weapon. We need to get a grip.

I understand all the prancing around about 'weapon'. Its just that almost every one who has a new do-dad likes to live his fantasy though the do-dad as soon as he gets it, including adults. If we called every woman who dressed to feature her assets a whore and meant it as an accusation about one's intentions maybe what you are saying would be meaningful.

Oh shit. many do think women who feature sexual attributes are 'asking for it'.

We've got to grow up.

Its not on the ones who are enjoying themselves to act adult. Its on those who are responding to them to act adult.

The point is the cop isn't going to immediately know it's not a real gun.

It is their responsibility to find out before killing an innocent civilian.

 

[Rhea]

If there's a post on this forum about the police killing someone, it's going to be pretty easy to guess the victim's race.

What makes it even easier is when your article quote opens with "We was..."

I was raised not all that far from this area. I was raised on 'we was,' pronounced 'we wuz.' Ain't no racial component to it. It's just fairly common conversational dialect.

I live very far from there and the less educated white folks talk like that around here, too. "We was going to the store to buy 15 foot of fence and we seen the old dodge by where the lie-berry used to be."

 

[Rhea]

For one, we know that it was not a toy gun and thus was not sold in the toy aisle, but rather a small game hunting air rifle sold in the sporting goods aisle.

Wrong again. These are not sold as "small game hunting" rifles. They SUCK at killing small game. For one thing, the small game runs away when you pump it the 10 times necessary to get a decent velocity; and for another thing, if you pump it up inside the house and then go out to stalk the small game, when you shoot the small game it turns and laughs at you and walks off.

And then you know that if you actually want to hunt small game, you need to put away the fun little plinker for using on tin cans and go get a .22, preferably with hollowpoints to get the job done. You can ask the 17 dead woodchucks in my yard if you want more details on this.

So, wrong again. It really is a toy. A dangerous toy, but a toy.

 

[laughing dog]

According to the WalMart online site, a MK-177 pellet gun is not found under toys. It is under outdoor recreation.

More importantly, since the police apparently shoot to kill, it is incumbent on them to accurately ascertain the situation before taking aim and firing. The police are paid to take these risks. It is clear that in this situation, the police officers in question failed in their duty. Mr. Crawford, the father of 2, is dead because of their actions. I Crawford was not firing nor aiming the air rifle at anyone. No one was menaced at the time. I find it incredible that anyone could defend the actions of the police with the information at hand.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it."

This is the most ironic post of the thread. This thread was posted specifically to show racial bias, for which ZERO evidence was given. Much has been made of it being a "toy" gun. Why does that matter? If it looks like a real gun, and police can't be sure, it should be assumed to be a real gun. Much has been made of him supposedly saying "its not real". Even if he said that, apparently people didn't hear it, because they say they were alarmed and thought it real. Other witnesses apparently said he was pointing it around at people and had taken it out of its box.

At the end of the day, we don't really know, so you should not be ASSUMING racist motivations here, as it appears to be the whole purpose of the thread to do. If you've got a surveillance video, or more witness accounts, they'd be interesting to see, but lets not jump to conclusions one way or the other.

 

[Toni]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it."

This is the most ironic post of the thread. This thread was posted specifically to show racial bias, for which ZERO evidence was given. Much has been made of it being a "toy" gun. Why does that matter? If it looks like a real gun, and police can't be sure, it should be assumed to be a real gun. Much has been made of him supposedly saying "its not real". Even if he said that, apparently people didn't hear it, because they say they were alarmed and thought it real. Other witnesses apparently said he was pointing it around at people and had taken it out of its box.

At the end of the day, we don't really know, so you should not be ASSUMING racist motivations here, as it appears to be the whole purpose of the thread to do. If you've got a surveillance video, or more witness accounts, they'd be interesting to see, but lets not jump to conclusions one way or the other.

Walmart was full of customers at the time of the incident. Only two people, apparently husband and wife, found Crawford to be threatening.

Why did they find him to be threatening?

How do we know that he didn't simply find the bb gun on the floor of the toy aisle and pick it up to see whether it was real or a toy?