Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Derec]

It doesn't even matter if he was a criminal. He had a right to due process. Officers don't have the privilege of hindsight but these officers shot hindsight 60 times so I don't give a fuck about what they thought at the moment.

Had he surrendered, he would have gotten due process aplenty, just like that Crimo guy.
Shooting at police is very risky. It escalates everything. It demonstrates to police he is willing and able to use deadly force against them, and they act accordingly. He should have surrendered right when he got out of the car, making sure police saw his hands were empty and making sure not to move his hands anywhere close to his waistband.
Instead he ran, and police naturally assumed he was still armed. He made some stupid decisions. And for what? It's not like he was facing life in prison. Although he was going away for a while had they captured him and given him his due process.

 

[Derec]

Let them flee and track them down later.

That's what other cops did the night before. And the very next day, when these cops try to pull him over, he shoots at them.
At that point "track him down later" is no longer an option. Now he is considered a clear and present danger, not just somebody fleeing a traffic stop.

It's interesting insofar as my cat had a problem with "fleeing" bedtime, but he cut that shit out and goes to the bedroom for bedtime these days all on his own. Because he understands the futility of running.

Your cat is smarter than some people.

 

[Derec]

Today on, "all black people look alike".

All people in ski masks look alike.

 

[Gospel]

It doesn't even matter if he was a criminal. He had a right to due process. Officers don't have the privilege of hindsight but these officers shot hindsight 60 times so I don't give a fuck about what they thought at the moment.

Had he surrendered, he would have gotten due process aplenty, just like that Crimo guy.
Shooting at police is very risky. It escalates everything. It demonstrates to police he is willing and able to use deadly force against them, and they act accordingly. He should have surrendered right when he got out of the car, making sure police saw his hands were empty and making sure not to move his hands anywhere close to his waistband.
Instead he ran, and police naturally assumed he was still armed. He made some stupid decisions. And for what? It's not like he was facing life in prison. Although he was going away for a while had they captured him and given him his due process.

And then 60 gunshot wounds.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This stuff feels a bit different when it is local and you know all the places that the news is happening. Saw this image of a SWAT vehicle.

These protests have not been large, not remotely large. And again we see this over-reaction by the police using equipment meant to deal with terrorists. It quickly presents a narrative of us verses you. Using snow plows carries a much smaller 'anti-people' feel, and those things are beasts!

Indeed, allowing protests at night is an issue as the hooligans come out at night. I get that. Luckily around 9:30/10:00 it rained pretty hard, and then it trained back and rained again. So that helped end that Tuesday night.

ETA: *snipped out some text*

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It doesn't even matter if he was a criminal. He had a right to due process. Officers don't have the privilege of hindsight but these officers shot hindsight 60 times so I don't give a fuck about what they thought at the moment.

Had he surrendered, he would have gotten due process aplenty, just like that Crimo guy.

Reminds me of that chase in Cleveland where a car was pumped full of bullets after a long chase. People in the car didn't even get out.

Had he simply submitted to the traffic stop, things likely would never have gotten out of hand. The next several minutes would contain a lot of bad choices.

Shooting at police is very risky. It escalates everything. It demonstrates to police he is willing and able to use deadly force against them, and they act accordingly.

Yeah, that is absolutely true. Especially at night. But a guy who murdered or shot 30 people... that should send a likewise signal, even more so.

He should have surrendered right when he got out of the car, making sure police saw his hands were empty and making sure not to move his hands anywhere close to his waistband.

The trouble is, no one is making any rational choices at this point. Officers have leapt out of the car, far from cover, absolutely for no tactical gain. The suspect has almost no good options. He has already made a couple real bad choices that are near impossible to walk back from. The one thing that you neglect to mention is that he had a gun... and a clip... he could have used that, but he left it in the car. In the end, we aren't really expecting professional courtesy at this point. But the officers are supposed to be trained to serve and protect. Instead, with adrenaline pumping in their systems, they are acting irrationally, putting their lives needlessly into danger. And then due to that, pumped bullets into the suspect not because they were protecting the community, but because of their failure to see to their own safety via the training they are supposed to have received.

This shooting wasn't racist. This shooting was the result of no one making rational decisions.

 

[Ford]

Hey here's a not-so-fun fact: The Highland Park shooter actually fired fewer rounds than the Akron PD did when they gunned down this unarmed black man that was running away from them. The former is estimated to have fired 70 shots, while the latter fired 90 between them.

And the Highland Park shooter - who murdered 7 people and wounded over 40 others - was taken alive!


What is wrong with this picture?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So this link has the body camera footage. I didn't watch it all, I don't watch killings. But what caught my attention was the initial screen shot, of an officer standing within 20 feet of the car... completely and utterly without a shred of cover protecting him. What in the fuck is that officer thinking?! It appeared multiple officers decided to put themselves into a dangerously exposed positions, which is a common tactical error that is usually followed by officers killing someone for their own safety.

What cover existed there to be behind? And cover is completely useless when the objective is to arrest the person--you have to approach to do that.

I can damn well guarantee that I could have found some cover.

Then, I'm not some lackadaisical, incompetent cop.

As it is arresting can absolutely start from a position of cover, from the stepping stones of "negotiation" and "talking down the situation".

Does the word "pursuit" not mean anything to you? How do you negotiate and talk down when they're running away?

Certainly not by shooting the running-away person in the back.

Let them flee and track them down later.

It's interesting insofar as my cat had a problem with "fleeing" bedtime, but he cut that shit out and goes to the bedroom for bedtime these days all on his own. Because he understands the futility of running.

I expect that most humans are at least as smart as a cat in being able to be taught the lesson that fleeing the inevitable is kind of pointless.

In other words, ignore crime. They aren't going to get tracked down. You've just made running from the cops a very desirable approach. You've also increased the number of dead people--we already saw it with the BLM protests, the police backing off leads to more dead people. And this guy already shot at the police, if they did track him down why do you think it would be any less violent the second time?!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It isn't "pretty obvious" he was an armed robber. Having the ski mask is certainly not working anywhere in his favor, but that he didn't have say... loot, would indicate he hadn't robbed anyone, recently. The Akron Police would be all over that if there were any signs that he had robbed some place. Also, there aren't many places to rob at that time of night in Akron.

He was probably on the way to another robbery, not fleeing a robbery. Ski masks are rarely worn by non-criminals except in cold situations.

Regarding reasons to shoot, I'm pretty certain their unprofessional tactics that led to a complete lack of cover required them to act hastily in self-defense to any movement the suspect made. I doubt any officer was planning on killing anyone that night, but their failure to remain diligent lead to way too many bullets flying, killing an unarmed suspect.

This isn't to say the suspect didn't fuck up. And had he shot at the cops from the car, that is a fuck up to the power of a fuck up. But the officers are supposed to be able to handle situations.

You aren't providing any means by which they could pursue and maintain cover. Until you do that you're arguing for the impossible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And then 60 gunshot wounds.

Yeah, you already said that. BLM has the actual effect of killing blacks, not helping them.

 

[laughing dog]

And then 60 gunshot wounds.

Yeah, you already said that. BLM has the actual effect of killing blacks, not helping them.

Please explain how the BLM movement causes the police to shoot and kill more blacks.

 

[ZiprHead]

So this link has the body camera footage. I didn't watch it all, I don't watch killings. But what caught my attention was the initial screen shot, of an officer standing within 20 feet of the car... completely and utterly without a shred of cover protecting him. What in the fuck is that officer thinking?! It appeared multiple officers decided to put themselves into a dangerously exposed positions, which is a common tactical error that is usually followed by officers killing someone for their own safety.

What cover existed there to be behind? And cover is completely useless when the objective is to arrest the person--you have to approach to do that.

I can damn well guarantee that I could have found some cover.

Then, I'm not some lackadaisical, incompetent cop.

As it is arresting can absolutely start from a position of cover, from the stepping stones of "negotiation" and "talking down the situation".

Does the word "pursuit" not mean anything to you? How do you negotiate and talk down when they're running away?

Certainly not by shooting the running-away person in the back.

Let them flee and track them down later.

It's interesting insofar as my cat had a problem with "fleeing" bedtime, but he cut that shit out and goes to the bedroom for bedtime these days all on his own. Because he understands the futility of running.

I expect that most humans are at least as smart as a cat in being able to be taught the lesson that fleeing the inevitable is kind of pointless.

In other words, ignore crime. They aren't going to get tracked down. You've just made running from the cops a very desirable approach. You've also increased the number of dead people--we already saw it with the BLM protests, the police backing off leads to more dead people. And this guy already shot at the police, if they did track him down why do you think it would be any less violent the second time?!

Where do you get this stuff from? They have his car, they would know where he lives.

 

[Patooka]

Where do you get this stuff from? They have his car, they would know where he lives.

Don't be so fucking stupid. That would involve police work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And then 60 gunshot wounds.

Yeah, you already said that. BLM has the actual effect of killing blacks, not helping them.

Please explain how the BLM movement causes the police to shoot and kill more blacks.

I made no such claim. I said the BLM movement causes blacks to die, I did not say they were dying at police hands. Why are you mis-stating my position? This has been discussed before, you should know what's going on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, ignore crime. They aren't going to get tracked down. You've just made running from the cops a very desirable approach. You've also increased the number of dead people--we already saw it with the BLM protests, the police backing off leads to more dead people. And this guy already shot at the police, if they did track him down why do you think it would be any less violent the second time?!

Where do you get this stuff from? They have his car, they would know where he lives.

You think he's going back to his place after something like that?!

There are lots of people the police want but don't go grab.

 

[laughing dog]

I made no such claim. I said the BLM movement causes blacks to die, I did not say they were dying at police hands. Why are you mis-stating my position? This has been discussed before, you should know what's going on.

I apologize. I misunderstood.

Why do you think the BLM movement causes blacks to die?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It isn't "pretty obvious" he was an armed robber. Having the ski mask is certainly not working anywhere in his favor, but that he didn't have say... loot, would indicate he hadn't robbed anyone, recently. The Akron Police would be all over that if there were any signs that he had robbed some place. Also, there aren't many places to rob at that time of night in Akron.

He was probably on the way to another robbery, not fleeing a robbery. Ski masks are rarely worn by non-criminals except in cold situations.

People typically don't flee from the police if they are caught before doing anything illegal. This person could certainly have had criminal intent.

Regarding reasons to shoot, I'm pretty certain their unprofessional tactics that led to a complete lack of cover required them to act hastily in self-defense to any movement the suspect made. I doubt any officer was planning on killing anyone that night, but their failure to remain diligent lead to way too many bullets flying, killing an unarmed suspect.

This isn't to say the suspect didn't fuck up. And had he shot at the cops from the car, that is a fuck up to the power of a fuck up. But the officers are supposed to be able to handle situations.

You aren't providing any means by which they could pursue and maintain cover. Until you do that you're arguing for the impossible.

There is no need to pursue if HE ISN'T RUNNING AWAY! I'm arguing for the police not to put themselves into needless positions of danger. They should have gotten training for that. Instead, their actions lacked tactical advantages and put them in grave danger if the suspect did decide to try and harm them. If they slow down, assess the situation without the tunnel vision, everyone has a better chance of walking away alive.

The suspect did himself zero favors. However, the officers didn't shoot him to protect the community, they shot him to protect their own bare asses which they recklessly left flopping out in the wind.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I made no such claim. I said the BLM movement causes blacks to die, I did not say they were dying at police hands. Why are you mis-stating my position? This has been discussed before, you should know what's going on.

I apologize. I misunderstood.

Why do you think the BLM movement causes blacks to die?

#BLM gives blacks this crazy idea of entitlement that their lives shouldn't be automatically ceded to the judgement of officers.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And this guy already shot at the police, if they did track him down why do you think it would be any less violent the second time?!

Because the police officers involved in the follow-up won't be hopped up on adrenaline and will be better suited to arrest him. We already know he left a gun with a second clip in the car when he got out.

 

[Gospel]

And then 60 gunshot wounds.

Yeah, you already said that. BLM has the actual effect of killing blacks, not helping them.

If this was your attempt to discuss black-on-black crime it failed. Horribly.