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Praise, Worship, Faith - Hosanna in the highest

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
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Have you ever met anyone

who thought they deserved praise, who basked in, even asked for, worship and who expected you to believe in them without any explanation, and who would hurt you if you didn’t do these things,

Who you thought was a good person?
 
Have you ever met anyone

who thought they deserved praise, who basked in, even asked for, worship and who expected you to believe in them without any explanation, and who would hurt you if you didn’t do these things,

Who you thought was a good person?

Nope.
 
Have you ever met anyone

who thought they deserved praise, who basked in, even asked for, worship and who expected you to believe in them without any explanation, and who would hurt you if you didn’t do these things,

Who you thought was a good person?

You mean satan?
 
Have you ever met anyone

who thought they deserved praise, who basked in, even asked for, worship and who expected you to believe in them without any explanation, and who would hurt you if you didn’t do these things,

Who you thought was a good person?

You mean satan?

No, I mean Jehovah. And Allah. Probably Hera, too. Maybe Ra?
 
Have you ever met anyone

who thought they deserved praise, who basked in, even asked for, worship and who expected you to believe in them without any explanation, and who would hurt you if you didn’t do these things,

Who you thought was a good person?

You mean satan?

No, I mean Jehovah. And Allah. Probably Hera, too. Maybe Ra?

I would be most interested to see your documentation for any of these claims.

Especially as pertains to your final condition "without any explanation".
 
I would be most interested to see your documentation for any of these claims.

Especially as pertains to your final condition "without any explanation".

  • Does Jehovah like praise and worship? (First fruits, no other god before me, instructions for altars, “The father is seeking such people to worship him” (John 4:21-24), Loving the smell of the burnt offering... etc.)
  • Does he punish you if you fail to show praise (Ask Cain, maybe)
  • Does he expect you to believe in him without explanation (Mother Theresa could answer this one for you. But also see, “Faith - belief in that which you have not seen,” Abraham’s idiotic willingness to slit his own soon’s throat without explanation, Faith is _defined_ as worship without explanation - and it is required.)
  • Does he punish you if you don’t do these things? (He will say, “I never knew ye” plus a thousand more)


Does that help?
 
I would be most interested to see your documentation for any of these claims.

Especially as pertains to your final condition "without any explanation".

  • Does Jehovah like praise and worship? (First fruits, no other god before me, instructions for altars, “The father is seeking such people to worship him” (John 4:21-24), Loving the smell of the burnt offering... etc.)
  • Does he punish you if you fail to show praise (Ask Cain, maybe)
  • Does he expect you to believe in him without explanation (Mother Theresa could answer this one for you. But also see, “Faith - belief in that which you have not seen,” Abraham’s idiotic willingness to slit his own soon’s throat without explanation, Faith is _defined_ as worship without explanation - and it is required.)
  • Does he punish you if you don’t do these things? (He will say, “I never knew ye” plus a thousand more)


Does that help?
Not really, no. Worship in the Hebrew Scriptures is explained as a reciprocal, even contractual affair. It's not just asked for out of the blue, there's a covenant between God and his people, in which really the people in question get the better end of the deal; they get protection and sustenance, and give in return just a fraction of the produce thus granted. In the Christian re-invention, the system is balanced even more noticeably in favor of humanity, who get an eternal prize for a momentary act of faith. Punishments are there, but not arbitrary; those punished agreed to the terms when entering into the covenant with God in the first place. It gets a little wonky when you start trying to universalize the faith all Augustine-style and apply these punishments also to non-believers, but criticizing God for this tendency makes about as much sense as being mad at Aristotle because you aren't an Aquinas fan.

And in any case, the crime isn't failure to worship so much as failing to accept salvation from an already existent slough of crimes. There's not actually any requirement to worship God in the Christian section of the Bible; it is encouraged, but not required anywhere as a condition of salvation. So your portrayal of Christian theology, whether or not conservative, is still inaccurate. And I find it odd to use the Hebrew name when the Greek theology is your target, anyhow. I had assumed until you clarified that you meant God as understood by the Hebrews themselves, who weren't universalists at all.

And what about the other three? Were you just randomly selecting Hera as a deity to impugn? Because that is a good way to get torn apart by dogs, but your crime would be foolishly insulting a goddess, not just failing to worship her. I am not aware of any penalty ever rendered in the ancient world simply for failing to worship Hera. The only persons obliged to pay homage to this Goddess were those dedicated to her as priests or priestesses, or who, again, had entered into contract with her in full intention. A pregnant mother who prayed for a healthy birth in Hera's name might be obliged to her. But not just any random person on the street.
 
Not really, no. Worship in the Hebrew Scriptures is explained as a reciprocal, even contractual affair. It's not just asked for out of the blue, there's a covenant between God and his people, in which really the people in question get the better end of the deal; they get protection and sustenance, and give in return just a fraction of the produce thus granted.

Hmm. So if I stipulate that you are accurate (I’m willing to do that for this discussion since neither Christians nor Jews can agree even on their own theology, so I might as well just assume the person I’m talking to is a God-Bespoke expert because, well, they all are, amirite?) So if I stipulate that you are accurate then the god does not ask for or want any “worship” or “praise” but people give it as if the god would want such a thing. I tell, I would be so monumentally uncomfortable with all that, that I’d say, “stop it, y’all, you’re debasing yourselves” long before now. But we’re going with your claim that the god doesn’t want it, but does nothing to stop it.

Weird, but I’ll mark that as your position.

In the Christian re-invention, the system is balanced even more noticeably in favor of humanity, who get an eternal prize for a momentary act of faith.

What kind of person gives out prizes for faith in their existence? This is the weirdest ever. If you trust me, little girl, I’ll give you some candy!

Punishments are there, but not arbitrary; those punished agreed to the terms when entering into the covenant with God in the first place. It gets a little wonky when you start trying to universalize the faith all Augustine-style and apply these punishments also to non-believers, but criticizing God for this tendency makes about as much sense as being mad at Aristotle because you aren't an Aquinas fan.

Why, ‘cause you think the bible does not address what it thinks about non-believers? You think there are no statements in the bible about punishments meted out to those who fail to believe by faith without evidence?

So your portrayal of Christian theology, whether or not conservative, is still inaccurate.
LOL, innaccurate to you. Guarandamntee you there are plenty of Christians who think this theology is accurate. And you know it. You’ll say “they aren’t right,” while they say you aren’t right, and then you’ll both smile smugly and pretend the external question never arose and not care about convincing each other because being right only matters when you talk to a non-believer?

And I find it odd to use the Hebrew name when the Greek theology is your target, anyhow. I had assumed until you clarified that you meant God as understood by the Hebrews themselves, who weren't universalists at all.

Your god changed his name? I say Jehovah because no one uses a Greek name, and to call one of the gods “god” is confusing, and pointless since he has a name.
And what about the other three? Were you just randomly selecting Hera as a deity to impugn?
I picked her because she is often jealous of her position and crabby when people don’t pay her enough attention and she was known for harming people that she thought were threatening her status, especially Zeus’ bastard children.
 
Hmm. So if I stipulate that you are accurate (I’m willing to do that for this discussion since neither Christians nor Jews can agree even on their own theology, so I might as well just assume the person I’m talking to is a God-Bespoke expert because, well, they all are, amirite?) So if I stipulate that you are accurate then the god does not ask for or want any “worship” or “praise” but people give it as if the god would want such a thing. I tell, I would be so monumentally uncomfortable with all that, that I’d say, “stop it, y’all, you’re debasing yourselves” long before now. But we’re going with your claim that the god doesn’t want it, but does nothing to stop it.

Weird, but I’ll mark that as your position.
Please don't, as that wasn't and isn't my position. In fact, I didn't write any of the things in the paragraph above. Nor did I claim any sort of credentials, for that matter. Go back and re-read my post, if you are interested in my opinion on the question.

What kind of person gives out prizes for faith in their existence? This is the weirdest ever. If you trust me, little girl, I’ll give you some candy!
Who said anything about faith in existence? I assume there were a fair number of people in Jesus' own time who believed that Jesus existed; it would not make much sense to say that this is the condition, nor is it what any Christian congregation I am familiar with thinks faith in Christ means. I mean, yes, they do think that Jesus and God exist, but that isn't what the Sinner's Prayer or any other formula of salvation stipulate. Faith is a relationship of mutual trust and fidelity, not just a statement of obvious factual truth.

Why, ‘cause you think the bible does not address what it thinks about non-believers? You think there are no statements in the bible about punishments meted out to those who fail to believe by faith without evidence?
I would, in fact, be interested to see any Bible verse that says non-believers are to be punished for failure to worship, as you claim.

So your portrayal of Christian theology, whether or not conservative, is still inaccurate.
LOL, innaccurate to you. Guarandamntee you there are plenty of Christians who think this theology is accurate. And you know it.
I'd rather you demonstrate this instead of just saying it. You're curiously casual about making blanket statements with no supporting evidence, for someone who claims to be offended by faith without evidence. I do not think that you do, in fact, understand conservative Christian philosophy. This isn't a statement of guesswork on my part, I spent quite a lot of my childhood in those circles, and try to stay abreast of recent developments in theology as the world turns.

You’ll say “they aren’t right,” while they say you aren’t right, and then you’ll both smile smugly and pretend the external question never arose and not care about convincing each other because being right only matters when you talk to a non-believer?
Er... Christians don't disagree with each other? On second thought, I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere on the historical question. I mean, where do I need to start, here?

Your god changed his name? I say Jehovah because no one uses a Greek name, and to call one of the gods “god” is confusing, and pointless since he has a name.
He's not "my" God, and you may call him whatever you like, I was just confused by your turn of phrase. It's not important.

The Greek word for God is Theos, by the way, but in English it is usually styled "God" or "the Christian God" when clarity is needed.

I picked her because she is often jealous of her position and crabby when people don’t pay her enough attention and she was known for harming people that she thought were threatening her status, especially Zeus’ bastard children.
So you cannot, in fact, defend your statement about her, that she demands worship without explanation and punishes those who don't offer it?

Incidentally, Hera's mother was your namesake, Rhea, though as far as anyone knows she was not widely worshiped outside of Crete, where her cult originated.
 
Let me step back because your last post was confusing.

My OP is that current day religion exists on a religious book, typically, and that the books say certain things.
And current day Christianity practices things based on that book. (As do other religions)
The expectation to believe without evidence is based on today
(I don’t actually think that Jesus showed evidence because with the accounts all being written decades later, I’m not convinced that they speak accurately. But that’s not relevant because Jehovah doesn’t show himself today.)​


You seem to be saying Christianity isn’t what I say it is, it’s what you say it is. And therefore my premise is wrong? Or am I misunderstanding you? You say I don’t understand conservative Christian theology, despite me not saying that I was limiting this to conservative christian theology. You don’t address my actual answers, even the part where I explicitly mention a verse in the bible, you decide to not address that at all.

You’re arguing that the god changed his name halfway through the story and saying _I’m_ confusing by using his name rather than the word used generically for any god.

And you’re right I do not have any evidence about Hera other than the stories of how she treats people who are not in favor. And yes I know her mother is Rhea, although I am not named after her - I am named after the study of fluid flow - from a proto-Indo-European root. Go ahead and discard the mention of Hera as irrelevant. Her adherents do not run around bothering people anyway.


So in short, I don’t follow your arguments as having anything to do with the OP. Can you please elaborate, or maybe you were confused about the thread content? It sounds like you are denying any of the original points apply to conservative christianity and are not relevant to you.
 
My OP is that current day religion exists on a religious book, typically, and that the books say certain things.
And current day Christianity practices things based on that book. (As do other religions)
You are including many lines of evidence other than that book, though... Are you saying that you wish to have an exclusive conversation about the Bible, or are we meant to explore everything that you have brought forward as evidence? It's your thread, I reckon you can define rules of conversation if you like. Though I warn you, I get bored with Bible proof-texting slams rather quickly as a rule. I love the book, as a book, not so much as a rhetorical bludgeon. If we start discussing the verses you posted, that dreaded word "context" will certainly come into things!

The expectation to believe without evidence is based on today
Yes, it is. Specifically, in the teachings and writing of modern conservative Protestants and traditionalist Catholics, which is why I am a tad confused by your statement below. It isn't really a Biblical perspective in my opinion, and I suppose we could have that discussion, but isn't it a bit tangential to your point?

You seem to be saying Christianity isn’t what I say it is, it’s what you say it is. And therefore my premise is wrong? Or am I misunderstanding you? You say I don’t understand conservative Christian theology, despite me not saying that I was limiting this to conservative christian theology. You don’t address my actual answers, even the part where I explicitly mention a verse in the bible, you decide to not address that at all.
You seemed to be only addressing conservative Protestant soteriology (ie, God is sending everyone to hell due to original sin, and requires a personal commitment in expiation of sin through the blood of Jesus Christ). If I am incorrect, and you mean to capture all historical Christian perspectives in your critique, I confess I am even more confused. How would your characterization even begin to apply to, say, Gnostic Christianity? Marcion would agree with you in spades, Jehovah was absolutely not to be trusted from his point of view! :)

You’re arguing that the god changed his name halfway through the story and saying _I’m_ confusing by using his name rather than the word used generically for any god.
No, you only confused me. It's really not important. And no, no one is arguing that God changed his or her name.

And you’re right I do not have any evidence about Hera other than the stories of how she treats people who are not in favor. And yes I know her mother is Rhea, although I am not named after her - I am named after the study of fluid flow - from a proto-Indo-European root. Go ahead and discard the mention of Hera as irrelevant. Her adherents do not run around bothering people anyway.
You've clearly never met a Hellenic reconstructionist - though small in number, they are in fact a hardy and insistent lot, sticklers on tradition as a rule. Apologies for misreading your name though! It's not a complete coincidence perhaps, as many ancient writers believed Rhea's name to be derived from rheos, flow, the same root word as rheology. Not all linguists agree on the point, mind.

So in short, I don’t follow your arguments as having anything to do with the OP. Can you please elaborate, or maybe you were confused about the thread content? It sounds like you are denying any of the original points apply to conservative christianity and are not relevant to you.
Really, no. I disagree with your understanding of conservative Christian theology, Islamic theology, and Greek theology. My own personal views seem entirely irrelevant to the question of whether your claims are supportable with evidence or not. If my comments do not relate to the OP, I'm not sure how that could be as most of them are my attempts to make sense of your chaotic defense of the OP.
 
I think Politesse knows exactly what the OP is about but decided to be a troll.

Since there is no publisher holding the copyrights for the action hero/my little pony we call God, there is no one that can control the narrative of this entity. So there are multitudes...

Thus going for another narrative than what Rhea talks about is definiteky out of topic.
 
I think Politesse knows exactly what the OP is about but decided to be a troll.

Since there is no publisher holding the copyrights for the action hero/my little pony we call God, there is no one that can control the narrative of this entity. So there are multitudes...

Thus going for another narrative than what Rhea talks about is definiteky out of topic.

Rationally critiquing the argument is not being a "troll". This is a discussion forum, discussion is ostensibly what we are here for.
 
I think Politesse knows exactly what the OP is about but decided to be a troll.

Since there is no publisher holding the copyrights for the action hero/my little pony we call God, there is no one that can control the narrative of this entity. So there are multitudes...

Thus going for another narrative than what Rhea talks about is definiteky out of topic.

Rationally critiquing the argument is not being a "troll". This is a discussion forum, discussion is ostensibly what we are here for.
But you are not ”rationslly critiquing”. You are avoiding the matter altogether.
 
So the OP isn't about Trump?
Okay, then -- the challenge is to find God beating up on those who don't worship him (oops -- Him.) That would mean a story where God acts like a touchy, self-absorbed prick. I nominate the story, I think in Exodus, where God whacks Nadab and Abihu for failing to follow the exact protocol God demands in worship & adoration. Apparently their crime was lighting an offering to His Divine Being that turned out to be profane. They used their own kindling instead of the God-endorsed incense they were supposed to use. So obviously God killed them. The story lacks only a Steve Martin callback from 1978: Well, excuuuuuse meeee!!!
(BTW, the evangelicals are on the right track w/ Trump, because he shows the same godlike attributes: hit back when anyone challenges you, only hit back twice as hard, humiliate your "foes", take away their pension, publicly mock them, concoct an abusive name that you ALWAYS call them, and urge your AG to send them to prison. Annihilate.)
 
I think Politesse knows exactly what the OP is about but decided to be a troll.

Since there is no publisher holding the copyrights for the action hero/my little pony we call God, there is no one that can control the narrative of this entity. So there are multitudes...

Thus going for another narrative than what Rhea talks about is definiteky out of topic.

Rationally critiquing the argument is not being a "troll". This is a discussion forum, discussion is ostensibly what we are here for.
But you are not ”rationslly critiquing”. You are avoiding the matter altogether.

What is the "matter" I'm avoiding?
 
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