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Price Waterhouse analyst murdered in his home by police

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here who are extremely angry about people bringing up the race angle to this shooting. However, being angry that an innocent person was unnecessarily shot to death by a person, off-duty cop or otherwise, who to all appearances was clearly overreacting? Not so much.

Why do we conclude she was clearly overreacting?

She faced an intruder who almost certainly wasn't complying with her instructions. Had it been her place people wouldn't be upset if she pulled the trigger--where's the overreaction?

This is a horrible "Oh, shit!" moment that a bunch of race agitators want to pretend was racial in nature.


She did NOT face an intruder. HE faced an intruder.
Holy shit what a sick world you live in.

How do you like the photos of your “no reason to think she’s racist” lady friend, Loren?

Let’s see your next twisted assurance that she was only doing something reasonable that could not _possibly_ have escalated because of her feelings about the race of the victim.*

*For those lacking a soul, I’ll explicitly clarify that the victim is the black man here. You have a hard time discerning that.

You're playing monday morning quarterback here.

The situation must evaluated with what was known to the participants at the time.

She believed she was facing an intruder in her own apartment. Non-compliant, probably came towards her. Most people would consider that justified, it would be a non-issue.

The problem comes from the fact she wasn't in her apartment. Now we have imperfect self defense which is treated as manslaughter.
 
To be fair, Loren is describing what was going through the cop's mind.

Which is how a self defense case must be evaluated. Nothing not known to the shooter at the time matters. The standard is whether a reasonable person facing the same situation would consider it a threat to their life or of serious bodily harm.
 
She did NOT face an intruder. HE faced an intruder.
Holy shit what a sick world you live in.

How do you like the photos of your “no reason to think she’s racist” lady friend, Loren?

Let’s see your next twisted assurance that she was only doing something reasonable that could not _possibly_ have escalated because of her feelings about the race of the victim.*

*For those lacking a soul, I’ll explicitly clarify that the victim is the black man here. You have a hard time discerning that.

You're playing monday morning quarterback here.
Actually, you are.
The situation must evaluated with what was known to the participants at the time.
Nonsense. It is not unreasonable to expect that a police officer
1) know where she is, and
2) properly assess the situation before unleashing lethal force.

This officer failed both of those reasonable tests.

She believed she was facing an intruder in her own apartment. Non-compliant, probably came towards her. Most people would consider that justified, it would be a non-issue.
You are literally making stuff up. You don't know if the victim was non-compliant. You have no idea whether the victim came towards her or not, or even how close the victim was to the police officer. And, clearly, most people do not consider this justified, since her own police department is seeking a warrant.
 
Derec said:
So, the family has already hired both Benjamin Crump and Lee Merritt(less). That means they already see dollar signs and are planning to sue the city for many millions.
Their son is dead. I'm sorry, their Price Waterhouse insurance worker son is dead. Pretty certain they feel like they've been wronged. Gotta love your "see dollar signs" demonization of them though. I think it just speaks volume after volume of you, your priorities, and character when a 26 year old is killed in his own home, having done absolutely nothing wrong... and you are whining about that family's lawyer and accuse them of gold digging.

But she was off duty. Shouldn't that mean that the city can't be held liable? I do not think you should be able to sue an employer for what their employees do in their spare time.
Who is liable in this situation is a legal matter of which I have no idea. We'll see where that goes.
 
To be fair, Loren is describing what was going through the cop's mind.
Which is how a self defense case must be evaluated. Nothing not known to the shooter at the time matters.
Funny, because whenever a bad boy is shot, we get to hear about how much of a bad boy he is and how that matters.
The standard is whether a reasonable person facing the same situation would consider it a threat to their life or of serious bodily harm.
What... a person existing inside a building? That is a threat now? Because if someone wandered into my home, barked a couple orders, I'm confused and get shot... you are saying Self Defense?
 
Their son is dead.
Yes. Which makes the fact that their first instinct is to hire lawyers quite ghoulish.
I'm sorry, their Price Waterhouse insurance worker son is dead.
While he is an innocent victim here, Crump and Merrittless are more used to filing ridiculous lawsuits on behalf of thugs. For example, Crump is filing a 15 million dollar lawsuit on behalf of Stephon Clark, who was engaged in car break-ins when he was shot. Their choice of lawyers is questionable from that standpoint.
Pretty certain they feel like they've been wronged. Gotta love your "see dollar signs" demonization of them though. I think it just speaks volume after volume of you, your priorities, and character when a 26 year old is killed in his own home, having done absolutely nothing wrong... and you are whining about that family's lawyer and accuse them of gold digging.
They hired not one, but two, hearse chasing lawyers who are best known for suing local governments for millions whenever a black person is killed by police.
How else am I going to interpret that if not as greed?
 
The one thing that stands out in this tragedy is that the shooter should not remain a member of the police force. There is no obvious reason why she would go into a downstairs apartment and shoot the occupant, although maybe there is some past history we don't know about. The race of the victim probably was a factor in making her more prone to using deadly force. She was frightened, and she was holding a gun on the man. In her confused condition, it is hard to say what was running through her mind and how much of her story even reflects what actually happened. In the end, this is a clear case of manslaughter. Had she not been a member of the police force, this matter would have been far easier to get her a swift trial before a jury. As things stand, we have a powerful police force and its union shielding her from facing the same consequences that an ordinary citizen would face.
 
Yes. Which makes the fact that their first instinct is to hire lawyers quite ghoulish.

While he is an innocent victim here, Crump and Merrittless are more used to filing ridiculous lawsuits on behalf of thugs. For example, Crump is filing a 15 million dollar lawsuit on behalf of Stephon Clark, who was engaged in car break-ins when he was shot. Their choice of lawyers is questionable from that standpoint.
Pretty certain they feel like they've been wronged. Gotta love your "see dollar signs" demonization of them though. I think it just speaks volume after volume of you, your priorities, and character when a 26 year old is killed in his own home, having done absolutely nothing wrong... and you are whining about that family's lawyer and accuse them of gold digging.
They hired not one, but two, hearse chasing lawyers who are best known for suing local governments for millions whenever a black person is killed by police.
How else am I going to interpret that if not as greed?

How about seeking justice for the family? And yes, punitive damages against a police force and the officer it employed for not screening/training her better and placing the general public in harm's way.

Seriously, Derec, this is not just some oopsy! This is a terrible, terrible, outrageous event and loss for not only the family but it seriously undermines public confidence in the police force! We should be able to respect and trust the police force! Not fear them!


And, BTW, Stephon Clarke was in his grandmother's back yard when he was shot. Not breaking into cars.
 
To be fair, Loren is describing what was going through the cop's mind.

Which is how a self defense case must be evaluated. Nothing not known to the shooter at the time matters. The standard is whether a reasonable person facing the same situation would consider it a threat to their life or of serious bodily harm.

That's not the standard, Loren. This was an off duty police officer who was trained and sworn to serve and protect, not act as some vigilante. And FFS, he OPENED THE DOOR TO HIS OWN APARTMENT!!!!! It would have been negligence if she had been shooting at someone else and hit him by mistake. She was ENTIRELY in the wrong from start to finish!

We expect people who drink or take drugs or medications that might compromise their ability to reasonably operate machinery and automobiles to refrain from doing that in the name of public safety.

Why can we not also expect that TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS who might be over-tired or stressed after a long shift also refrain from using their firearms?
 
How about seeking justice for the family? And yes, punitive damages against a police force and the officer it employed for not screening/training her better and placing the general public in harm's way.
Justice will come in the form of a criminal verdict. To seek millions in "punitive damages" from the city is pure greed. And these so-called "punitive damages" are the biggest perversion in the US civil system anyway. Torts are supposed to recover real damages. Not to enrich some plaintiffs and their lawyers based on made-up dollar amounts.

Seriously, Derec, this is not just some oopsy! This is a terrible, terrible, outrageous event and loss for not only the family but it seriously undermines public confidence in the police force! We should be able to respect and trust the police force! Not fear them!
It's a terrible mistake this woman made. But she was on her own time, not working as police officer.
If she was instead a cashier for Walmark and did the same, do you think Walmart should be liable for millions just to satiate the family's greed?

And, BTW, Stephon Clarke was in his grandmother's back yard when he was shot. Not breaking into cars.
He fled to that backyard after breaking into cars. He wasn't just chilling in the backyard. You know that quite well, as we had a lengthy thread on him. Why are you playing dumb?
 
sandiegouniontribune

Some updated info.

Unless these two had a history, I have a hard time believing she decided in the moment: Hey, I can get away with shooting this black guy. I think she would have to have a rather checkered past to do something this ballzy.

They may have brought manslaughter charges because of her training as a cop. That is, whether it's her apartment or not, did she follow proper procedures when approaching a suspect? With that in mind, (and I know many of you don't want to hear this but) this may be a case in which were she not a trained cop, it might not even be manslaughter.
 
Justice will come in the form of a criminal verdict. To seek millions in "punitive damages" from the city is pure greed. And these so-called "punitive damages" are the biggest perversion in the US civil system anyway. Torts are supposed to recover real damages. Not to enrich some plaintiffs and their lawyers based on made-up dollar amounts.

Greed? Do you think it is free to have to settle the estate of a family member? That therapy after is free? That it is free to discharge any financial obligations this young man might have had?

It's not free, Derec, and it's also not cheap.

It's a terrible mistake this woman made. But she was on her own time, not working as police officer.
If she was instead a cashier for Walmark and did the same, do you think Walmart should be liable for millions just to satiate the family's greed?

If she had been a cashier at Walmart she would not have used her service firearm to shoot someone in his own home.

It matters because the PD is using the fact that she just came off of a full shift as explanation/perhaps mitigating factor. FFS, Derec, you cannot possibly believe that we---the general public--should just accept that any over tired police officer is a deadly threat in whatever neighborhood they happen to be in.

That is reason for punitive: overworking officers, allowing them to carry service firearms off premises, and so on.
And, BTW, Stephon Clarke was in his grandmother's back yard when he was shot. Not breaking into cars.
He fled to that backyard after breaking into cars. He wasn't just chilling in the backyard. You know that quite well, as we had a lengthy thread on him. Why are you playing dumb?

Why are you misrepresenting the facts of the case, Derec? You are the one who said he was killed while breaking into cars. You are the one who brought him into this discussion and you are the one misrepresenting facts.
 
sandiegouniontribune

Some updated info.

Unless these two had a history, I have a hard time believing she decided in the moment: Hey, I can get away with shooting this black guy. I think she would have to have a rather checkered past to do something this ballzy.

I think that we tend to confuse racism with white supremacist behavior. The point here is that people tend to perceive African Americans, particularly young males, as a greater potential threat than white males of the same age and body shape. So she caught a man whom she thought was in the act of breaking into her apartment. Would she have been more or less likely to fire her gun, if he had been white? Probably less likely. Fear, not what she could "get away with", was the likely problem. Her reaction would have actually been more understandable, had she not been a trained police officer. Unfortunately, her training seems to have included the rather common view that shouted commands from a police officer ought to provoke immediate compliance rather than panic, especially in people of color.

They may have brought manslaughter charges because of her training as a cop. That is, whether it's her apartment or not, did she follow proper procedures when approaching a suspect? With that in mind, (and I know many of you don't want to hear this but) this may be a case in which were she not a trained cop, it might not even be manslaughter.

It would obviously have been manslaughter even if she had just been an armed civilian. She had just shot and killed her downstairs neighbor (unarmed) in his own apartment. Knowing that, would you move in next door to her? She posed a danger to everyone in her building, not to mention people she might come into contact with while on the job. Not everybody suffering from fatigue goes into the wrong apartment or home and shoots the occupant.
 
https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1038128986440835073

Guess his race. Go on, guess!

Yes, this is a post on Twitter, but it's a post on Twitter by a journalist.

No, the journalist doesn't work for FOX News.

Not every shooting of a black person is a racial issue. This one may or may not be. On the face of it, there is not much if anything to indicate it was.

If a white lady answered the door, would she have been killed? This isn't a rhetorical question. Though I think we may be dealing with probabilities and factors here, I'd like to hear your answer.

Next question is why the unnecessary killing? I mean, taking out a gun is one thing. Actually shooting to kill someone is something else.

Also, what was up with the pacing back and forth rather than applying emergency first aid? Is it because he was running away into the apartment when she shot him and thus the door closed after him? The police tend to shoot people, minorities included, when the victims are running away and we've seen this before. Do you think that is reasonable?

I have no statistics, but we've come across a lot of stories involving minorities running away and/or being shot in the back, even if unarmed.

Don, I'd like to apologise if earlier I overstated my case (or was unnecessarily rude in doing so) that the race issue should not be speculated about. At the time, I was mostly objecting to the possible implication that it was necessarily a factor, or much of a factor, in this case and I was disinclined to go down that route (pending further information or evidence). On reflection, there is nothing wrong in speculating about it, with caveats.

I do of course agree with the general statements about perceived stereotypes, including black people often more or less automatically being seen, perhaps especially by whites, as more likely to be dangerous. And that such perceptions can sometimes be subtle, for the perceiver, and exist on a spectrum as regards the population.
 
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Justice will come in the form of a criminal verdict. To seek millions in "punitive damages" from the city is pure greed. And these so-called "punitive damages" are the biggest perversion in the US civil system anyway. Torts are supposed to recover real damages. Not to enrich some plaintiffs and their lawyers based on made-up dollar amounts.

A bit of a pedantic distinction, but I don't like the concept of punitive damages either, and prefer exemplary damages, which have more of an argument going for them. Punitive makes no sense. Neither form of damages should go to the plaintiff, because as you say they should recover actual damages only. But I do think some damages may be appropriate to make an example of the offender, if the actual amount isn't enough to discourage the same behaviour, and if it is treated merely as a cost of doing business. That money could go into the government to help fund social programs.

It's a terrible mistake this woman made. But she was on her own time, not working as police officer.

Another important point. She should lose her job with them because this demonstrates she is unstable and has poor judgment, but it didn't happen with her as an agent for the police, so they should not be in any way held liable for this. They are not to blame here.
 
Justice will come in the form of a criminal verdict. To seek millions in "punitive damages" from the city is pure greed. And these so-called "punitive damages" are the biggest perversion in the US civil system anyway. Torts are supposed to recover real damages. Not to enrich some plaintiffs and their lawyers based on made-up dollar amounts.
Umm... guy (their son) is dead. No grand children. Also, he is dead.

"real damage"? Death is pretty darn real, whether you personally have enough empathy to recognize it or not.
 
If a white lady answered the door, would she have been killed? This isn't a rhetorical question. Though I think we may be dealing with probabilities and factors here, I'd like to hear your answer.

Next question is why the unnecessary killing? I mean, taking out a gun is one thing. Actually shooting to kill someone is something else.

Also, what was up with the pacing back and forth rather than applying emergency first aid? Is it because he was running away into the apartment when she shot him and thus the door closed after him? The police tend to shoot people, minorities included, when the victims are running away and we've seen this before. Do you think that is reasonable?

I have no statistics, but we've come across a lot of stories involving minorities running away and/or being shot in the back, even if unarmed.

Don, I'd like to apologise if earlier I overstated my case (or was unnecessarily rude in doing so) that the race issue should not be speculated about. At the time, I was mostly objecting to the possible implication that it was necessarily a factor, or much of a factor, in this case and I was disinclined to go down that route (pending further information or evidence). On reflection, there is nothing wrong in speculating about it, with caveats.

I do of course agree with the general statements about perceived stereotypes, including black people often more or less automatically being seen, perhaps especially by whites, as more likely to be dangerous. And that such perceptions can sometimes be subtle, for the perceiver, and exist on a spectrum as regards the population.

I accept your apology and I also apologize if I was harsh about it.
 
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