Problems with the Problem of Evil

[Learner]

Or...why don't you tell that to the manufacturers of harmful foods, and your government to sort it?

What do you not get that it isn't "harmful foods" but "genetics that unswervingly cause this for the people who 'draw' that 'hand'"?!?

I thought I was talking about the common obesity that's generally in many.

What do you not understand about "my sister got fat from a well understood genetic condition" do you not understand?

In respect to you and your sister... we have a different angle of conversation slipping in here - that I do understand.

If people really had free will, they wouldn't over eat and become obese, although Jarhyn has already mentioned, there are other causes of obesity besides eating too much.

Other causes, I have no doubt, so there is no counter to what Jaryn mentions coming from me. Btw are there other causes that occur which are not solely by ingesting things into your body?
(I was prescribed steroids a few times, that I know raises blood sugar levels)

I can eat most anything I want and stay very thin. My two sisters were both extremely obese. One had weight loss surgery and was able to keep off the 100 lbs. that she lost. But she practically lives on yogurt.

Yet you have the same genetics.
(I'm sorry for your sisters situation, best wishes to you all)

So much for free will. If you don't have the will power to eat healthy foods, you don't have free will, do you?

Would you argue good reasons for people to use their 'free wills', come to their senses if for example: parents who are often drunk from alcohol or use drugs in a family setting are abusing themselves and neglecting their kids?

Acknowledging the use of 'free will' in settings of crime, where an individual decides to turn into a criminal causing harm to innocent people?

The use of free will in compassionate settings - like what one is willing to do to help someone, even if sometimes putting themselves at risk?

Most of my friends are obese. I know that at least one eats too much, but I'm not sure about the others. The one who comes over for dinner frequently and sometimes meets us for lunch, has never over eaten around me. She is addicted to smoking, despite trying for years to quit. Her late Christian mother died of lung cancer. Why didn't she [...]be fat shamed, even by some physicians? My late sister was nastily fat shamed once by an orthopedic surgeon. I guess he couldn't help himself.

nice god ya got there. You think that your god gives you free will, but too many people these days don't seem to have the will not to over eat, not to smoke, not to put down their phones, or to get off the couch and exercise, for examples. You've admitted that you have had trouble cutting back on beer and Coke, but then you learned how to make juice. But, even too much juice isn't healthy, so be careful. Still, if you had free will, you could have stopped or cut way back on your Coke and beer. So much for free will. Still, I'm sorry that you struggle with this problem.

Thank you southernhybrid, fortunately I am much better than I was 2 years ago.
It's more of a treat once in a while. No more meetings then straight off to the pub (bar), a coffee bar is much preferable.
( I'm sure you know this already. Making juice purely from fruit still contains fructose! - Best mix in lots a vegetables, tons of great recipes online.)

I've been to a local pizza buffet and watched people eat huge amounts of pizza. Most of them are very obese. I'm sure some of them are Christians, since I live in the Bible Belt. Why would they do that if they had free will? Why would they let that pizza lure them into over eating, instead of simply eating a few slices? Talk to someone who is obese and trying to cut back on what they eat. They can't usually do it. So much for free will.

That's usually not the argument I give for the lack of free will, but since the topic of obesity was brought up, and the claim was made that a loving god gave us have free will, it made me think of all the obese folks who are trying to cut back on eating, but simply don't have the will to do so. Why is that if we all have free will?

Temptation comes in all forms. The sad irony ... what the bible says is evident in what we see today from our very eyes. Everyday cautions, where the public is warned, giving awareness to child abuse, drug abuse, abuse of women and men, alcoholism, hate crimes and so on.

But, I'll add that if Christians really had free will, there would likely be far fewer educated Christians because they would realize that their beliefs are simply mythology and one would think that humanity would have realized that by now, and created a secular philosophy to create community and do works of charity, the two positive things that I see in some religions. I guess too many don't have the will to accept that the idea there is an invisible man in the sky who hears their pleas is a myth. And, that's why I try not to judge too harshly. I know that people can't help who they are, as we are all products of our environmental and genetic influences. Even people like Tfg is a product of his environmental influences and genetics. There is plenty of evidence that the man is a psychopath. Psychopathy is a disease of the frontal cortex, which leaves one without a moral compass. Society needs to be protected from these evil psychopaths, but they can't help who they are, so at least make prisons humane. Okay. Iv'e digressed enough for one post....

I guess we've strayed quite a bit from the topic of evil, but the promise of free will is a lie, or myth, so that's another obvious reason why the Bible is obviously, 66 little books of myths, created by the Patriarchs of ancient times. The Christian religions and many others have been used to suppress women, justify racism, slavery and wars. I think there is more evil in religions like Christianity, than good. So much for the good book.

It's really humans (as a species) oppressing other humans, that's the scope of the whole.. it's not an isolated thing that is often portrayed as being Christian, which is not the Doctrines of Christianity. Now with Religion yes.

People use Christianity just like Politics as a guise to alternative motives.The bible warns us about 'Wolves in sheeps clothing'.

Religions created for those purposes I agree with you. But it is not Christianity according to Jesus.

 

[Learner]

I thought I was talking about the common obesity that's generally in many.

Is English your first language?
Or do you just automatically lapse into incoherence when you’re over your head?

Prematurely posted? A tad gun ho?

Genetics and activity patterns have more to do with obesity than government not being a good enough Nanny to keep people from harming themselves.

Take note, the hint is in the post above.

Sisters of the same genetics - not all of them have obesity!

 

[DBT]

Will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making.

Yes it is.

You need to support your claim. Describe the means and mechanisms of decision making and the role that either conscious or unconscious will plays in the process. In other words, how - in your view - are decisions made?

 

[Lion IRC]

Will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making.

Yes it is.

You need to support your claim. Describe the means and mechanisms of decision making and the role that either conscious or unconscious will plays in the process. In other words, how - in your view - are decisions made?

Um. No.
You didn't support your claim that "will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making"

Hitchens Razor.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yet you have the same genetics.

They clearly don't. Some genetics skip around. This is well understood, and well understood why

 

[Jarhyn]

Will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making.

Yes it is.

You need to support your claim. Describe the means and mechanisms of decision making and the role that either conscious or unconscious will plays in the process. In other words, how - in your view - are decisions made?

Um. No.
You didn't support your claim that "will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making"

Hitchens Razor.

Will is not the means, it is the process. The action of switching is the means.

Decisions are made by the contingent mechanism of a force on the switch either exceeding the activation energy, shifting it's equilibrium to pass rather than hold energy.

One event acts as the decider to another based on the contingent changeover point.

Wills are more high level statements that form as the overall effect of many such switches, the result of configuring switches rather than the means of assembling or activating them, with the "freedoms" being the outcomes of any particular set of input activation values.

Thus a trebuchet has the freedoms of "fire; disarm; hold moment", and which of these freedoms, or options, shall see implementation is selected by what moment is leveled at its switch.

 

[Elixir]

Sisters of the same genetics - not all of them have obesity!

OMFG! Whodathunkit??
(Other than anyone who has ever studied the matter, in even the most cursory manner.)

Ya might wanna brush up on what “same” means in that context.

Perhaps you’d like to explain how that contradicts my statement, even at face value.

Yet you have the same genetics.

They clearly don't. Some genetics skip around. This is well understood, and well understood why

Learner thinks genetics are like a four digit security code.
The idea that “identical” ova can diverge, seems to be foreign to our Creo.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Genetics and activity patterns have more to do with obesity than government not being a good enough Nanny to keep people from harming themselves.

Take note, the hint is in the post above.

Sisters of the same genetics - not all of them have obesity!

Might not have the same color eyes or hair either.

 

[bilby]

Today I learned that all sisters are identical twins.

Genius.

 

[Learner]

Yet you have the same genetics.

They clearly don't. Some genetics skip around. This is well understood, and well understood why

Some genetics skip around? I see, some' people.

I gather for alcoholics who have kin that are not alcoholics it's the same then.

 

[Learner]

Sisters of the same genetics - not all of them have obesity!

OMFG! Whodathunkit??
(Other than anyone who has ever studied the matter, in even the most cursory manner.)Ya might wanna brush up on what “same” means in that context.

Common genetic traits in families that are inherited. That context in where geneticist can tell with fair amount of accuracy - what diseases you can be prone to, who you are related to, by studying the inherited traits that go through bloodlines for hundreds of years.

Perhaps you’d like to explain how that contradicts my statement, even at face value.

Well ok, I was talking generally in context about people from all walks of life and various genetics who could potentially be obese, some less than others of course.

It's quite noticeable when in general terms we see the example: 'Public advice' from National Health Officials or Medical Institutions who with the Government are obliged to give out health information - information in this regard, obesity. The concern is the rise of obesity. The information is based on dietary habits not genetics!

That should explain 'face value' that your argument is quite faulty.

Yet you have the same genetics.

They clearly don't. Some genetics skip around. This is well understood, and well understood why

Learner thinks genetics are like a four digit security code.
The idea that “identical” ova can diverge, seems to be foreign to our Creo.

Yes I guess so. I don't know much about the "obesity gene".

 

[pood]

Sisters of the same genetics - not all of them have obesity!

OMFG! Whodathunkit??
(Other than anyone who has ever studied the matter, in even the most cursory manner.)Ya might wanna brush up on what “same” means in that context.

Common genetic traits in families that are inherited. That context in where geneticist can tell with fair amount of accuracy - what diseases you can be prone to, who you are related to, by studying the inherited traits that go through bloodlines for hundreds of years.

Perhaps you’d like to explain how that contradicts my statement, even at face value.

Well ok, I was talking generally in context about people from all walks of life and various genetics who could potentially be obese, some less than others of course.

It's quite noticeable when in general terms we see the example: 'Public advice' from National Health Officials or Medical Institutions who with the Government are obliged to give out health information - information in this regard, obesity. The concern is the rise of obesity. The information is based on dietary habits not genetics!

That should explain 'face value' that your argument is quite faulty.

Yet you have the same genetics.

They clearly don't. Some genetics skip around. This is well understood, and well understood why

Learner thinks genetics are like a four digit security code.
The idea that “identical” ova can diverge, seems to be foreign to our Creo.

Yes I guess so. I don't know much about the "obesity gene".

Sigh.

Genetics of obesity in humans.

 

[bilby]

Well ok, I was talking generally in context about people from all walks of life and various genetics who could potentially be obese, some less than others of course.

You were talking as though you knew something about genetics, while making abundantly clear the fact that you know absolutely nothing about genetics.

As usual, you have confident beliefs, and the delusion that these are equal to the knowledge of others - indeed, you probably assess that others who speak confidently about genetics, have a similar level of knowledge to you.

You are wildly wrong; But you are so wildly wrong that you are incapable of grasping just how wildly wrong you actually are.

Your knowledge in this area is less than zero - for every true fact that you believe, there is more than one falsehood that you believe with equal or greater confidence.

 

[Elixir]

I don't know much about the "obesity gene” genetics.

FIFY
I am no expert, but genes are predictive of populations, not individuals. And they are FAR from the only thing effecting individuals’ morphology .

 

[IIDB Staff]

It's a violation to change someone else's comments when quoting, with limited exceptions. Rhetoric or friendly jokes, sure, when that intent is clear. But paring or revising someone's words in a way that distorts their message or misrepresent their views is a serious violation and further instances will be met with moderator action, possibly to include public floggings. Seriously, though, stop it.

Thank you.
IIDB Staff

 

[DBT]

Will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making.

Yes it is.

You need to support your claim. Describe the means and mechanisms of decision making and the role that either conscious or unconscious will plays in the process. In other words, how - in your view - are decisions made?

Um. No.
You didn't support your claim that "will is not the neuronal means or mechanism of decision making"

Hitchens Razor.

It's not difficult, the means and mechanisms of decision making are the neural networks of a brain, which acquires and stores information and processes inputs prior to your experience of wants and needs. What is decided happens milliseconds prior to your conscious thoughts and actions.

This process has nothing to do with 'free will' or even general will, the impulse we feel to act.

 

[Lion IRC]

What is decided happens milliseconds prior to your conscious thoughts and actions.

Of course it's decided beforehand.
It would be cart before the horse otherwise.

I bet if you drill down you could probably observe/measure events along the way in the chain of causation happening nanoseconds...yoctoseconds before the eventual "conscious" actions.

 

[Learner]

Well ok, I was talking generally in context about people from all walks of life and various genetics who could potentially be obese, some less than others of course.

You were talking as though you knew something about genetics, while making abundantly clear the fact that you know absolutely nothing about genetics.

Like your comrade, you're trying to force a false argument I actually never made.

You quoted the above post of mine... but where is that bit you say I seemed to know all about genetics? You could you have quoted that very bit instead, give your argument a bit of credibility?

As usual, you have confident beliefs, and the delusion that these are equal to the knowledge of others - indeed, you probably assess that others who speak confidently about genetics, have a similar level of knowledge to you.

As usual your line of argument are your personal opinions, illustrated preferably in mind to you even when its not necessarily factual.

You are wildly wrong; But you are so wildly wrong that you are incapable of grasping just how wildly wrong you actually are.

Again... barking up the wrong tree, you claiming I'm disputing against the science/genetics - but then... I think that's your intention like our friend Elixir. Stealthily we go, shifting the angle of the argument within the topic matter.

I was talking from my own experience. I have never had any signs of obesity in my life until about 6 years ago. So...through the advice and guidance of medical professionals, I have acquired from them the knowledge which says: this is not unusual to the general wider population!

Your knowledge in this area is less than zero - for every true fact that you believe, there is more than one falsehood that you believe with equal or greater confidence.

Opinion noted ( even when you're in error...again).

 

[bilby]

Well ok, I was talking generally in context about people from all walks of life and various genetics who could potentially be obese, some less than others of course.

You were talking as though you knew something about genetics, while making abundantly clear the fact that you know absolutely nothing about genetics.

Like your comrade, you're trying to force a false argument I actually never made.

No, I am just pointing out that you are obviously clueless about this subject matter.

You quoted the above post of mine... but where is that bit you say I seemed to know all about genetics? You could you have quoted that very bit instead, give your argument a bit of credibility?

Nowhere did I say anything of the kind. I said "You were talking as though you knew something about genetics, while making abundantly clear the fact that you know absolutely nothing about genetics."

That's the exact opposite of me saying you seemed to know all about genetics.

As usual, you have confident beliefs, and the delusion that these are equal to the knowledge of others - indeed, you probably assess that others who speak confidently about genetics, have a similar level of knowledge to you.

As usual your line of argument are your personal opinions, illustrated preferably in mind to you even when its not necessarily factual.

You are totally incapable of assessing what is or is not factual in this subject area. You are of the mistaken opinion that everyone is, as you yourself are, making up shit as they go along based on their opinions.

But we are not doing that; Unlike you, others in this thread have put decades of study in, to find out the basic facts, before attempting to express our opinions.

You are like the guy who is asked if he can play the violin, and replies: "I don't know, I have never tried". And you are trying to engage in a discussion between actual musicians.

You are wildly wrong; But you are so wildly wrong that you are incapable of grasping just how wildly wrong you actually are.

Again... barking up the wrong tree, you claiming I'm disputing against the science/genetics

I am claiming that you are ignorant of the science/genetics. You would need to actually learn something in order to get to the elevated heights where you would be disputing anything.

- but then... I think that's your intention like our friend Elixir. Stealthily we go, shifting the angle of the argument within the topic matter.

I was talking from my own experience. I have never had any signs of obesity in my life until about 6 years ago. So...through the advice and guidance of medical professionals, I have acquired from them the knowledge which says: this is not unusual to the general wider population!

So what? What makes your single personal anecdote worthy of inclusion in a discussion of genetics, which is a population level phenomenon?

Your knowledge in this area is less than zero - for every true fact that you believe, there is more than one falsehood that you believe with equal or greater confidence.

Opinion noted ( even when you're in error...again).

That's not an opinion, it's an observation.

 

[DBT]

What is decided happens milliseconds prior to your conscious thoughts and actions.

Of course it's decided beforehand.
It would be cart before the horse otherwise.

I bet if you drill down you could probably observe/measure events along the way in the chain of causation happening nanoseconds...yoctoseconds before the eventual "conscious" actions.

The point is that it is not decided by what you call free will. It's not even decided by an act of will. It's not even decided consciously. It's the information processing activity of the brain that 'decides' and reports the action in conscious form, thoughts and feelings, for it to be acted out.

Your claim that free will is the driver of decision making not only puts the cart before the horse, but gets the agency of cognition completely wrong.