Question for those who support Voter ID laws in the US

[Worldtraveller]

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

This post reeks of privilege. Well done.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Wondering aloud...how did voter photo ID work before the advent of photography?

Because I'm fairly certain we had democracy before the invention of cameras.

From what I read in the 19th century a local official would go around personal checking people against a list.

Historically voter fraud has been an issue.

JFK's father probably swung the election. In Chicago there were places where there were more votes than actual residents. A lot of dead people resurrected themselves for the election.

I would expect there are non citizens who manged to vote, the question is how many.

Do you have evidence for this? (especially the pervasive myth of number of voters in some districts being higher than the population) If I didn't know better, I'd be surprised you're also an atheist, given how readily you believe things without evidence.

 

[Elixir]

This is such a long thread... I have just this to add:

‘I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally’

And THAT unmitigated bullshit is the only reason this thread is even here. There is no voter fraud problem, there's just a voter problem - for rethuglicans.

 

[Copernicus]

In the past, some Republicans have even admitted that the photo ID laws are intended to reduce the chances for Democrats to get elected. See this 2016 article: Some Republicans Acknowledge Leveraging Voter ID Laws for Political Gain.

In April of [2016], Representative Glenn Grothman, Republican of Wisconsin, predicted in a television interview that the state’s photo ID law would weaken the Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton’s chances of winning the state in November’s election.

It was not the first time he cited voter ID requirements’ impact on Democrats; in 2012, speaking about the law’s effect on President Obama’s re-election race, Mr. Grothman said voter ID requirements hurt Democrats because Democratic voters cheat more often — a premise that remains unproven. One of the few verified instances of recent voter fraud at a Wisconsin polling place — the only kind of fraud that a photo ID might prevent — padded a Republican governor’s tally.

...

In Pennsylvania, the state Republican Party chairman, Robert Gleason, told an interviewer that the state’s voter ID law “had helped a bit” in lowering President Obama’s margin of victory over the Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney in the state in 2012.

In that same election, the Republican leader of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, Mike Turzai, predicted during the campaign that the voter ID law would “allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.”

And also that year, Scott Tranter, a Republican political consultant for Mr. Romney and others, called voter ID laws — and generating long lines at polling places — part of his party's tool kit.

Don Yelton, a North Carolina Republican Party county precinct chairman, told an interviewer for Comedy Central’s “The Daily Show” in 2013 that the state’s voter ID law would “kick the Democrats in the butt.” Mr. Yelton later resigned; the party disavowed his statements.

In Florida, both the state’s former Republican Party chairman, Jim Greer, and its former Republican governor, Charlie Crist, told The Palm Beach Post in 2012 that the state’s voter ID law was devised to suppress Democratic votes. Mr. Greer told The Post: “The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates. It’s done for one reason and one reason only,” he said. Consultants told him “we’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us,” he said.

He added, “They never came in to see me and tell me we had a fraud issue. It’s all a marketing ploy.”

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Also, you people with states that require an ID to see the doctor are weird.

Nothing weird about it--the issue is insurance fraud. The state doesn't require you to present ID, the doctor's office wants to be sure the insurance card presented is really yours.

Pay cash and there's no ID requirement in most cases. (Controlled substances prescriptions would be another matter.)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Don't we already have Social Security numbers that identify who we are? Why the heck would we need to get a second level of identity? I don't recall needing a birth certificate to register to vote in the first place.

One of the ways I do it is to discuss the issue with people like my co-worker, who once glibly told me that Arizona has more important things to do than restore the voting rights it took away from it's elderly citizens when it passed a law requiring people to present their birth certificate when registering to vote. For some reason he doesn't value the right to vote, most likely because he has no idea how easy it would be to deny him his civil rights if he can't protect them at the ballot box.

Another thing I do is keep a sharp watch on the local Republican efforts to gerrymander my state into a guaranteed Republican victory. They aren't making birth certificates an issue because they can't. Alaska didn't become a state until the 1950s and people born in the villages didn't get them from the Territorial government. But there are other ways the folks in power are working to create advantages for themselves and disenfranchise political opponents.

Arizona wants to require a birth certificate to register?

DMV Employee: I need to see your birth certificate.

Person: Umm... aren't I standing here in front of you? What more evidence of birth are you looking for?

If people have the issues you list, then why not address those issues?

I remember getting my Passport... my actual original birth certificate was not viable to get a Passport. I needed to get another birth certificate.

 

[fast]

Don't we already have Social Security numbers that identify who we are? Why the heck would we need to get a second level of identity? I don't recall needing a birth certificate to register to vote in the first place.
DMV Employee: I need to see your birth certificate.

Person: Umm... aren't I standing here in front of you? What more evidence of birth are you looking for?

If people have the issues you list, then why not address those issues?

I remember getting my Passport... my actual original birth certificate was not viable to get a Passport. I needed to get another birth certificate.

Eh, like long form vs short form?

 

[Trausti]

Don't we already have Social Security numbers that identify who we are? Why the heck would we need to get a second level of identity? I don't recall needing a birth certificate to register to vote in the first place.
DMV Employee: I need to see your birth certificate.

Person: Umm... aren't I standing here in front of you? What more evidence of birth are you looking for?

If people have the issues you list, then why not address those issues?

I remember getting my Passport... my actual original birth certificate was not viable to get a Passport. I needed to get another birth certificate.

Bullshit. The No ID crowd are adament that you are too dumb to be able to do that.

 

[laughing dog]

Don't we already have Social Security numbers that identify who we are? Why the heck would we need to get a second level of identity? I don't recall needing a birth certificate to register to vote in the first place.
DMV Employee: I need to see your birth certificate.

Person: Umm... aren't I standing here in front of you? What more evidence of birth are you looking for?

If people have the issues you list, then why not address those issues?

I remember getting my Passport... my actual original birth certificate was not viable to get a Passport. I needed to get another birth certificate.

Bullshit. The No ID crowd are adament that you are too dumb to be able to do that.

Wrong. The No ID crowd is adamant that one should not have to do that in order to exercise a basic civil right.

 

[Playball40]

And once you've registered to vote and have a voter ID card, that should be it.

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

 

[RavenSky]

Arizona wants to require a birth certificate to register?

Hmmm...

My wife comes from a country where they don't exist. Births are recorded in record books, not on individual certificates. There is a document that one can get that is an official declaration of what those record books contain that serves the same purpose as a birth certificate but it is not one. The federal government understands this, apparently Arizona does not.

And what good does it serve, anyway? One can have a US birth certificate but not be eligible to vote (child of diplomats, someone who has renounced their citizenship), one can have a foreign birth certificate and be eligible to vote (born to US citizen parents, or naturalized.)

Sounds purely like an attempt to disenfranchise the poor.

The bolded is exactly what many of us have been saying... these voter restrictions are for the sole purpose of disenfranchising the poor, young voters, and minority voters - all of whom tend to vote Democratic.

- - - Updated - - -

The key will be if 5 members of the current SCOTUS miss/ignore/contradict this.

^^^ exactly

It is rather sobering how fragile our "inalienable rights" really are, and how dependent they are on the integrity of our government.

 

[RavenSky]

This is such a long thread... I have just this to add:

‘I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally’

And THAT unmitigated bullshit is the only reason this thread is even here. There is no voter fraud problem, there's just a voter problem - for rethuglicans.

I will have to quibble that this one isn't a Trump problem... Republicans have been trying to game the system with these draconian voter restrictions for years.

 

[Tristan Scott]

There is only one reason for voter ID requirements and that is to disenfranchise the poor, period. The present system of issuing voter registration cards has proven to be more than adequate to insure the integrity of our elections. Voter fraud is practically non-existant, and furthermore voter fraud that would be addressed by voter ID is so small that it would have to be considered virtually non-existant. Requiring a birth certificate for a voter ID is ludicrous. Birth certificate copies can be very difficult to obtain, and has been shown upthread sometimes they do not exist. Regardless, we should be spending our time and resources on shoeing up the real threats to our election process instead of these made up threats. Voter fraud is nothing but a red herring.

 

[repoman]

Seems like a good wiki on background to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in_the_United_States

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Arizona wants to require a birth certificate to register?

Hmmm...

My wife comes from a country where they don't exist. Births are recorded in record books, not on individual certificates. There is a document that one can get that is an official declaration of what those record books contain that serves the same purpose as a birth certificate but it is not one. The federal government understands this, apparently Arizona does not.

And what good does it serve, anyway? One can have a US birth certificate but not be eligible to vote (child of diplomats, someone who has renounced their citizenship), one can have a foreign birth certificate and be eligible to vote (born to US citizen parents, or naturalized.)

Sounds purely like an attempt to disenfranchise the poor.

The bolded is exactly what many of us have been saying... these voter restrictions are for the sole purpose of disenfranchising the poor, young voters, and minority voters - all of whom tend to vote Democratic.

Since when have you seen me supporting voter ID measures?

I simply said I didn't find restricting it to government-issued ID unreasonable. The ID requirement shouldn't be there in the first place, though--we don't have a problem that warrants it.

 

[lpetrich]

It's because the very same people demanding ridiculously selective types of ID to suppress liberal-leaning votes will scream to high heaven about government overreach for a national ID.

When someone in the Clinton Administration proposed a national ID card, the right wing howled. The National ID Card: It's Baaack! | Cato Institute

Found this OpEd in response to Juma's last post about a national ID, and really had to laugh...

5 Reasons Why America Should Steer Clear of a National ID Card
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010...national-id-e-verify-illegal-immigration.html

(rebuttals snipped for brevity)

Like complaining about a business having to get a scanner -- many businesses already have them for credit cards and bank cards.

I think that the problem with a national ID card is that it would likely be too universally available to be useful as a voter ID for excluding enough Democrats to throw elections.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I'm not opposed to having citizens present ID at the polling station. I'm against burdensome requirements for getting the needed documents. I'm against denying old people the right to vote because birth certificates weren't routinely issued when/where they were born. I'm against purging voter lists without triple checking in order to ensure that no one is mistakenly/maliciously removed from the rolls. I'm against forcing people to pay a fee in order to exercise a Constitutional right.

If a state wants to require citizens to show ID at the polling booth, it should make damn sure that every citizen receives one for free. They can pay for the program out of the same funds they use for voting machines and ballots.

^^^ THIS!

Sounds good to me.

Once getting an ID is not burdensome, then what would be the argument against wanting an ID to vote?

 

[Copernicus]

I'm not opposed to having citizens present ID at the polling station. I'm against burdensome requirements for getting the needed documents. I'm against denying old people the right to vote because birth certificates weren't routinely issued when/where they were born. I'm against purging voter lists without triple checking in order to ensure that no one is mistakenly/maliciously removed from the rolls. I'm against forcing people to pay a fee in order to exercise a Constitutional right.

If a state wants to require citizens to show ID at the polling booth, it should make damn sure that every citizen receives one for free. They can pay for the program out of the same funds they use for voting machines and ballots.

^^^ THIS!

Sounds good to me.

Once getting an ID is not burdensome, then what would be the argument against wanting an ID to vote?

My argument would be that every voter should be treated equally. If someone submits an absentee ballot without photo ID and that ballot is counted, then nobody should be held to a more stringent requirement just because that person showed up in person at a polling station and cast a ballot. When people register to vote, that should be the point at which photo IDs are required. At the polling station, a signature that matches the one on file should be all that is necessary. Unless and until there is some significant evidence of a need for photo IDs. In that case, there would need to be a more stringent method of checking the validity of absentee and mail-in ballots.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Sounds good to me.

Once getting an ID is not burdensome, then what would be the argument against wanting an ID to vote?

My argument would be that every voter should be treated equally. If someone submits an absentee ballot without photo ID and that ballot is counted, then nobody should be held to a more stringent requirement just because that person showed up in person at a polling station and cast a ballot. When people register to vote, that should be the point at which photo IDs are required. At the polling station, a signature that matches the one on file should be all that is necessary. Unless and until there is some significant evidence of a need for photo IDs. In that case, there would need to be a more stringent method of checking the validity of absentee and mail-in ballots.

This is an excellent point. I wish every state would simply go with mandatory mail in voting. For some reason (like most of the states that changed their gerrymandering laws) it's mostly progressive states that actually encourage their citizens to vote AND make it easy to do so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My argument would be that every voter should be treated equally. If someone submits an absentee ballot without photo ID and that ballot is counted, then nobody should be held to a more stringent requirement just because that person showed up in person at a polling station and cast a ballot. When people register to vote, that should be the point at which photo IDs are required. At the polling station, a signature that matches the one on file should be all that is necessary. Unless and until there is some significant evidence of a need for photo IDs. In that case, there would need to be a more stringent method of checking the validity of absentee and mail-in ballots.

A very good point.