"Race doesn't exist," and the myth is drowning blacks

[RavenSky]

With this information, it would seem blacks would be better divers than whites, as it takes less effort to sink.

Yes, good point. Black slaves were actually used for pearl diving.

Which, if true, disproves your other claim about lung capacity

 

[RavenSky]

It is like physics does not matter for people!

Abe, a question.

Have you ever been in water over your head?

It appears to me that he's still in water over his head

 

[ApostateAbe]

Yes, good point. Black slaves were actually used for pearl diving.

Which, if true, disproves your other claim about lung capacity

Unlikely, as lung sizes of the races have been measured many times, blacks always with smaller lungs. It is an established biological fact that should not be discarded in favor of one's interpretation of a pattern of history. For divers, a larger lung increases duration, but a smaller lung increases speed of diving.

 

[Bronzeage]

Abe, a question.

Have you ever been in water over your head?

It appears to me that he's still in water over his head

The core of arguments such as this always depend upon cherry picking evidence, misapplying it to derive a conclusion, then ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

For the past 200 years, science has chipped away at the concept of race as a meaningful division of home sapiens. There was a time when Gauls and Teutons were considered separate races. Of course this was convenient for some people at the time, but today, the idea there is distinction between a Frenchman and German seems laughable. Today, modern genetics shows there are no fundamental differences between human being, regardless of superficial appearance.

There are some people who cling to the idea of race and desperately catalog the small differences, hoping to convince us, and maybe their selves that there is something to their claims.

It was not so long ago that scientific knowledge of atomic and molecular structure led thinking people to abandon attempts to transmute lead into gold. That is the nature of true science. When the truth is revealed, long held believes are challenged. Some people simply can't handle that.

 

[ApostateAbe]

It appears to me that he's still in water over his head

The core of arguments such as this always depend upon cherry picking evidence, misapplying it to derive a conclusion, then ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

For the past 200 years, science has chipped away at the concept of race as a meaningful division of home sapiens. There was a time when Gauls and Teutons were considered separate races. Of course this was convenient for some people at the time, but today, the idea there is distinction between a Frenchman and German seems laughable. Today, modern genetics shows there are no fundamental differences between human being, regardless of superficial appearance.

There are some people who cling to the idea of race and desperately catalog the small differences, hoping to convince us, and maybe their selves that there is something to their claims.

It was not so long ago that scientific knowledge of atomic and molecular structure led thinking people to abandon attempts to transmute lead into gold. That is the nature of true science. When the truth is revealed, long held believes are challenged. Some people simply can't handle that.

Go into the details about how I am cherry picking evidence. Do you think there are studies that show that blacks have equal or larger lung sizes than whites? Or studies that show there are equal or smaller bone densities than whites? Or studies that show that blacks have equal or smaller muscle mass than whites? Or equal or greater body fat? Or equal or smaller total body density? What data do you think I am ignoring here?

 

[Juma]

The core of arguments such as this always depend upon cherry picking evidence, misapplying it to derive a conclusion, then ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

For the past 200 years, science has chipped away at the concept of race as a meaningful division of home sapiens. There was a time when Gauls and Teutons were considered separate races. Of course this was convenient for some people at the time, but today, the idea there is distinction between a Frenchman and German seems laughable. Today, modern genetics shows there are no fundamental differences between human being, regardless of superficial appearance.

There are some people who cling to the idea of race and desperately catalog the small differences, hoping to convince us, and maybe their selves that there is something to their claims.

It was not so long ago that scientific knowledge of atomic and molecular structure led thinking people to abandon attempts to transmute lead into gold. That is the nature of true science. When the truth is revealed, long held believes are challenged. Some people simply can't handle that.

Go into the details about how I am cherry picking evidence. Do you think there are studies that show that blacks have equal or larger lung sizes than whites? Or studies that show there are equal or smaller bone densities than whites? Or studies that show that blacks have equal or smaller muscle mass than whites? Or equal or greater body fat? Or equal or smaller total body density? What data do you think I am ignoring here?

Please show peer reviewed scientific articles that shows that lung size, bone density etc is not depending on social/cultural causes...

 

[ApostateAbe]

Go into the details about how I am cherry picking evidence. Do you think there are studies that show that blacks have equal or larger lung sizes than whites? Or studies that show there are equal or smaller bone densities than whites? Or studies that show that blacks have equal or smaller muscle mass than whites? Or equal or greater body fat? Or equal or smaller total body density? What data do you think I am ignoring here?

Please show peer reviewed scientific articles that shows that lung size, bone density etc is not depending on social/cultural causes...

The main argument here does not depend on the assertion that these phenotypic differences are mostly caused by differences in heritability. The argument depends merely on the point that the phenotypic differences exist, and they do, per the studies cited in the OP and post #38. I have talked as though the phenotypic differences are genetic, as it would be the most plausible assumption from my perspective, but I won't ask you to share that perspective. If you would rather believe that the racial phenotypic differences are environmentally caused, as the awkward dogma dictates, then OK, I won't argue with that, lacking the twin studies.

 

[Juma]

Please show peer reviewed scientific articles that shows that lung size, bone density etc is not depending on social/cultural causes...

The main argument here does not depend on the assertion that these phenotypic differences are mostly caused by differences in heritability. .

. If not genetically heritable differences then not an argunent for races. Just cultures.

Game over man

 

[ApostateAbe]

The main argument here does not depend on the assertion that these phenotypic differences are mostly caused by differences in heritability. .

. If not genetically heritable differences then not an argunent for races. Just cultures.

Game over man

If you like. The differences in drowning rates follow from differences in body densities following from differences in cultures. No more disagreement is needed.

 

[Juma]

. If not genetically heritable differences then not an argunent for races. Just cultures.

Game over man

If you like. The differences in drowning rates follow from differences in body densities following from differences in cultures. No more disagreement is needed.

That is not what I said. Differences in drowning rates is not explained by the alleged difference in densites you provided.

 

[scombrid]

What data do you think I am ignoring here?

That athletic white swimmers are leaner and denser than the average member of any "race". Therefore your belief that blacks should not be taught how to swim is false.

The racial drowning gap is a well-known problem, and the common way for authorities to solve this problem is to encourage blacks to learn how to swim. I take this to be akin to encouraging the public to learn how to juggle chainsaws, to make it a safe hobby. No. If you are buoyant, then it is plausibly safe to learn how to swim. Maybe you can be both black and buoyant. But, if you sink like a rock, then don't learn how to swim. Just trust your instincts and stay the hell away from the water.

Nothing you've posted demonstrates that blacks are too dense to swim. In fact, if they are slightly less buoyant then the average dough boy white person then that should be even more reason to learn to swim, since they might not just naturally float.

Fact is, the life guards that were practicing while I was surfing on Saturday morning were all ripped. They swam fine. There was even a black guy out surfing. He looked like a line backer. He didn't drown when he fell off his foamie rental board.

 

[RavenSky]

. If not genetically heritable differences then not an argunent for races. Just cultures.

Game over man

If you like. The differences in drowning rates follow from differences in body densities following from differences in cultures. No more disagreement is needed.

Except that you have completely failed to show that alleged differences in drowning rates follow from microscopically small differences in body densities.

Your opinion is not fact.

You very strongly remind me of someone who used to post on a different board I was on years ago... same sort of cherry-picked "science" to support racism. He denied he was a racist, too.

 

[ApostateAbe]

If you like. The differences in drowning rates follow from differences in body densities following from differences in cultures. No more disagreement is needed.

That is not what I said. Differences in drowning rates is not explained by the alleged difference in densites you provided.

Yes, that disagreement would be more relevant but less tenable. I expect it is not easy to fight the physics.

 

[RavenSky]

According to the CDC, Native Americans (not blacks) have the highest rate of drowning.

Among all settings combined, AI/AN aged ≤29 years had the highest rates of drowning, with blacks having the second highest rates (Table). Overall, the rate for AI/AN was twice the rate for whites (2.57 per 100,000 population versus 1.32, respectively) and the rate for blacks was 1.4 times the rate for whites (1.90 versus 1.32, respectively).

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6319a2.htm

Who is looking rather dense now...

In the "drowning while boating" category, whites are more than six times as likely to drown than blacks. Apparently, boating makes white bodies really really really dense.

 

[ApostateAbe]

If you like. The differences in drowning rates follow from differences in body densities following from differences in cultures. No more disagreement is needed.

Except that you have completely failed to show that alleged differences in drowning rates follow from microscopically small differences in body densities.

Your opinion is not fact.

You very strongly remind me of someone who used to post on a different board I was on years ago... same sort of cherry-picked "science" to support racism. He denied he was a racist, too.

The argument is clear. I have done the math. It is not a microscopic difference. The difference means that blacks on average must work 15% harder to stay afloat. I never denied that I am racist, and I don't mind the accusation so much, because I believe strongly that objective reality is far more important than adherence to ideology about objective reality. The slur of racism in the context of disagreement about science backfires embarrassingly for anyone who pretends to promote freedom of thought. But, you are the second person who accused me of cherry-picking the data to support the evidence. It is an easily confirmable claim but not a falsifiable claim, so present the evidence, or stop throwing it about like it is merely a belief that follows from a dogma and not any knowledge of the matter. Show me a study where the body densities of blacks are equal to or less than whites, for example.

- - - Updated - - -

According to the CDC, Native Americans (not blacks) have the highest rate of drowning.

Among all settings combined, AI/AN aged ≤29 years had the highest rates of drowning, with blacks having the second highest rates (Table). Overall, the rate for AI/AN was twice the rate for whites (2.57 per 100,000 population versus 1.32, respectively) and the rate for blacks was 1.4 times the rate for whites (1.90 versus 1.32, respectively).

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6319a2.htm

Who is looking rather dense now...

In the "drowning while boating" category,

See the last line in the OP.

 

[scombrid]

If the opening post is true then no men anywhere should go near the water and women should never drown given the body density differences between males and females.

 

[RavenSky]

.18 white children under the age of 1-year-old drown in swimming pools. From age 1 to 4 that rate is 1.74. The rate is statistically zero for black, NA, Hispanic or Asian children under the age of 1 drown in swimming pools, and still statistically lower than for white children under the age of 4.

According to ApostateAbe, this must mean that white babies need to stay very far away from swimming pools because they are genetically inferior.

Or more likely, it is evidence that Apostate Abe cherry picks his data to support his racist position.

 

[ApostateAbe]

.18 white children under the age of 1-year-old drown in swimming pools. Statistically zero black, NA, Hispanic or Asian children under the age of 1 drown in swimming pools. According to ApostateAbe, this must mean that white babies need to stay very far away from swimming pools because they are genetically inferior.

"...genetically inferior." Is that the misunderstanding? I will presume it is a misunderstanding and not just a crude strawman. If blacks have higher body density due to genetics, it does not follow that they are genetically inferior. It follows that they have a higher risk of drowning. The denser bones of blacks means they have a much lower rate of osteoporosis. It may be a better trade.

- - - Updated - - -

And, yeah, I think it makes perfect sense that white babies stay away from pools for the sake of safety.

 

[RavenSky]

Nearly 80% of people who die from drowning are male.

According to ApostateAbe's "scientific" "logic", all men should stay very very far away from water at all times.

 

[ApostateAbe]

If the opening post is true then no men anywhere should go near the water and women should never drown given the body density differences between males and females.

Nearly 80% of people who die from drowning are male.

According to ApostateAbe's "scientific" "logic", all men should stay very very far away from water at all times.

I don't argue for absolutes, but I do think it pays to know the differential risks and the reason for it. Males have likewise much greater body densities than females and therefore three times the drowning risk. I expect we are perfectly willing to accept that inference. But, applying such reasoning to racial differences, no, no, no, such reasoning must be slandered, ridiculed, shouted down, and kept off the table.