RACISM SOLVED on IIDB! "This whole business about whether someone had ancestors who were a slave or slaveholder is just ridiculous. It means nothing."

[Elixir]

Let the U.S. tell their history from the perspective of the so-called victors, just as it has done with everyone else's history.

So-called victors do that. That's WHY they are so-called.

Our history is preserved and accessible through institutions like the National Archives, the Library of Congress, and the Smithsonian Institution to name a few.

Would you prefer to do away with them as well? Do away with those painful memories?
I'm not being sarcastic and don't mean to imply that wanting to do away with them would be some kind of "wrong". I just feel like the FACT of their existence shouldn't be wiped out. Same for confederate statues glorifying their perversion.

 

[Gospel]

Let the U.S. tell their history from the perspective of the so-called victors, just as it has done with everyone else's history.

So-called victors do that. That's WHY they are so-called.

Our history is preserved and accessible through institutions like the National Archives, the Library of Congress, and the Smithsonian Institution to name a few.

Would you prefer to do away with them as well? Do away with those painful memories?
I'm not being sarcastic and don't mean to imply that wanting to do away with them would be some kind of "wrong". I just feel like the FACT of their existence shouldn't be wiped out. Same for confederate statues glorifying their perversion.

What part of the National Archives, the Library of Congress, and the Smithsonian Institution did you not understand?

 

[Gospel]

So-called victors do that. That's WHY they are so-called.

The United States won the Civil War and is under no obligation to preserve statues of traitors and enemies of the state on federal grounds, nor should they be displayed in any state within the Union. These individuals are no more deserving of commemoration than any other group that waged war against the United States. We may as well let the Nazis erect a statue of Hitler to remember the Holocaust. The legacy of such figures belongs in history books and museums, not as monuments in public spaces. If they want to tell history from their prospective they are more than welcome to build their own cotton picking museums.

 

[Gospel]

what about a statue of Osama Bin Laden at the center of the Ground Zero Memorial in NYC, with the engraved quote "We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.". Sounds good, right? This illustrates how absurd it is to keep Confederate statues in public spaces. Both are examples of honoring figures who committed atrocities against the United States and its people.

We don't need a statue of Osama Bin Laden to remember what happened.

 

[bilby]

Due to reality being real and things existing, we will find a far higher percentage of literally everything under The Sun, everything on Earth, IN THEISTS, than in nontheists, merely due to the mathematical reality that there are more of them.

That's not how percentages work.

5% of 1,000,000 is a bigger number than 6% of 1,000, for sure. But it's not a higher percentage.

 

[Elixir]

while social control is part of that ideology and the religion has been used to justify atrocities, religion goes beyond that

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.
Sheesh.
Let me excuse religion (while recognizing the robust collectors' market for Templar artifacts) for a moment, since you seem to be an apologist for it.

The act of creating, commemorating and idolizing confederate traitors should not be forgotten. Let's put a stop to it, and not forget what a robust effort that has been since the slave states lost their war. Take all those statues out of public view, and place them where documentation of their evil can be placed beside them. Or even just document the history of those monuments - who made them, who commissioned them, where they stood and why - with photos, models, whatever, and THEN destroy them if you must.
@Gospel is afaik the only black person participating in this discussion, and I gotta defer to his inclinations. But it seems to me that documentation would be most powerful using the actual artifacts.

 

[Elixir]

they are more than welcome to build their own cotton picking museums.

Be careful what you wish for!

 

[Gospel]

If you would find a well documented, accurately interpreted display of those artifacts offensive, I can only apologize; I am not a black person and have no standing to tell a black person how to feel about it.

I find them offensive being displayed in public spaces as if they are endorsed by federal or state governments. I don't know how fucking else I can make it clearer. If Confederate lovers want to keep them erected, then by all means reach into your fucking pockets and build your own goddamn museum. When it comes to displaying them in federally or state-funded museums, they don't get a say in how said history is told. The Union does. I don't take issue with the Union asking them for their opinions for documentations sake but they don't own the narrative nor should they financially gain from it to further their agenda. any profits should go towards all that are still currently impacted by Jim crow (no matter what race) however by default it should directly benefit underserved black neighborhoods. Fuck the confederacy from every direction.

 

[Politesse]

If Confederate lovers want to keep them erected, then by all means reach into your fucking pockets and build your own goddamn museum.

They'd never be able to afford it. Museums, libraries, and amusement parks that cater exclusively to the far right can never make enough money to keep the lights on for more than a few years, both because there aren't enough visitors who are interested in that kind of trash and because those that are don't have the money to make repeat visits over many years. If these "teaching materials" aren't kept afloat by federal funds from the government these traitors opposed, they will fall into disuse and poor condition.

 

[Gospel]

they are more than welcome to build their own cotton picking museums.

Be careful what you wish for!

I didn't wish for a damn thing. Starting your own business is a significant part of American culture. Entrepreneurship has long been celebrated as a key aspect of the American Dream, giving importance to the values of individualism, innovation, and economic opportunity. I presume the reason why such a place doesn't already exist is because there isn't a market for it.

 

[Gospel]

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.

I wager that both cornbread and barbecue originated from Native Americans who were tragically genocided. Southern culture does not solely belong to ignorant individuals stuck in a 19th-century time capsule.

 

[thebeave]

they are more than welcome to build their own cotton picking museums.

Be careful what you wish for!

I didn't wish for a damn thing. Starting your own business is a significant part of American culture. Entrepreneurship has long been celebrated as a key aspect of the American Dream, giving importance to the values of individualism, innovation, and economic opportunity. I presume the reason why such a place doesn't already exist is because there isn't a market for it.

You seemed sorta accepting of the idea of putting them in a museum earlier this morning in post #28, and now you seem not in favor of it, just a few hours later. I'm not sure what happened between then and now. Or did I miss something?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A museum is fine but should include the facts surrounding those monuments including about their coincidence with the rise of the KKK and Jim Crow laws, monuments built by the same people (e.g., Daughters of the Confederacy) to honor the KKK, etc..

Yes, that is what interpretive materials are all about. That an artist was an asshole is irrelevant. Art is art, not politics. Where they are put into bed together, much interesting internal conflict arises.
My youngest sister is an accomplished artist, a "liberal" and has been a museum curator for years - at the Montgomery (Alabama) Museum of Fine Arts, if you can feature that. It's a position that is almost untenable by definition; no matter what you do or fail to do, someone's feathers get ruffled.
So she has learned to look at art with an eye that is way more objective than I could ever see it... just the art. If it makes a statement, the statement is not the point, the point is the power that art lends it. I don't expect many people to have such a practiced eye, so interpretive materials would be essential to go along with the preservation of Civil War/post Civil War statuary and art.

Yup, an atheist can appreciate the artistry of Michelango's Christian themed paintings without getting uppity about some of the stupid and evil things done in the name of that religion.

Art is art, not politics" is nonsense. A great deal of art is politics and war memorials glorifying a particular side are pure politics and arguably not art. A practiced eye sees what the artist was intending, and in some cases like this one the intent was to promote hate and racism. They belong in something more akin to a holocaust museum which a type of history museum than an art museum.

Yeah, the right place would be a holocaust museum--but I don't think anyone wants to spend the money. I was just saying that if the KKKers want to keep them around as important art I would not object to them building a museum. They fund it, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If Confederate lovers want to keep them erected, then by all means reach into your fucking pockets and build your own goddamn museum.

They'd never be able to afford it. Museums, libraries, and amusement parks that cater exclusively to the far right can never make enough money to keep the lights on for more than a few years, both because there aren't enough visitors who are interested in that kind of trash and because those that are don't have the money to make repeat visits over many years. If these "teaching materials" aren't kept afloat by federal funds from the government these traitors opposed, they will fall into disuse and poor condition.

Yeah, if they put them in museums we would soon see how little they truly value them. Basically put up or shut up.

 

[Elixir]

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.

I wager that both cornbread and barbecue originated from Native Americans who were tragically genocided. Southern culture does not solely belong to ignorant individuals stuck in a 19th-century time capsule.

Most certainly! BBQ came from Seminole iirc, and corn … yeah. Genocided.
I thought that was what made it good sarcasm.

 

[Politesse]

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.

I wager that both cornbread and barbecue originated from Native Americans who were tragically genocided. Southern culture does not solely belong to ignorant individuals stuck in a 19th-century time capsule.

The truth is that both are examples of the benefits of cultural fusion, arising from communities where indigenous and immigrant communities were living side by side for decades. There's a little bit of Anahuac/Turtle Island, a little bit of Europe, and a little bit of West Africa in every marinade. We would be better off if we could learn to respect and celebrate that plurality instead of hiding it.

 

[stanley]

A museum is fine but should include the facts surrounding those monuments including about their coincidence with the rise of the KKK and Jim Crow laws, monuments built by the same people (e.g., Daughters of the Confederacy) to honor the KKK, etc..

Yes, that is what interpretive materials are all about. That an artist was an asshole is irrelevant. Art is art, not politics. Where they are put into bed together, much interesting internal conflict arises.
My youngest sister is an accomplished artist, a "liberal" and has been a museum curator for years - at the Montgomery (Alabama) Museum of Fine Arts, if you can feature that. It's a position that is almost untenable by definition; no matter what you do or fail to do, someone's feathers get ruffled.
So she has learned to look at art with an eye that is way more objective than I could ever see it... just the art. If it makes a statement, the statement is not the point, the point is the power that art lends it. I don't expect many people to have such a practiced eye, so interpretive materials would be essential to go along with the preservation of Civil War/post Civil War statuary and art.

Yup, an atheist can appreciate the artistry of Michelango's Christian themed paintings without getting uppity about some of the stupid and evil things done in the name of that religion.

Art is art, not politics" is nonsense. A great deal of art is politics and war memorials glorifying a particular side are pure politics and arguably not art. A practiced eye sees what the artist was intending, and in some cases like this one the intent was to promote hate and racism. They belong in something more akin to a holocaust museum which a type of history museum than an art museum.

Yeah, the right place would be a holocaust museum--but I don't think anyone wants to spend the money. I was just saying that if the KKKers want to keep them around as important art I would not object to them building a museum. They fund it, though.

They are already costing $ to maintain them where they are, so there is some savings there. Then put a national tax on flags sold in the US of enemies of the US who killed US soldiers.

 

[stanley]

while social control is part of that ideology and the religion has been used to justify atrocities, religion goes beyond that

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.
Sheesh.
Let me excuse religion (while recognizing the robust collectors' market for Templar artifacts) for a moment, since you seem to be an apologist for it.

The act of creating, commemorating and idolizing confederate traitors should not be forgotten. Let's put a stop to it, and not forget what a robust effort that has been since the slave states lost their war. Take all those statues out of public view, and place them where documentation of their evil can be placed beside them. Or even just document the history of those monuments - who made them, who commissioned them, where they stood and why - with photos, models, whatever, and THEN destroy them if you must.
@Gospel is afaik the only black person participating in this discussion, and I gotta defer to his inclinations. But it seems to me that documentation would be most powerful using the actual artifacts.

Southern culture that created southern cornbread and bbq is black culture who invented and perfected both. How many confed flags do you see blacks proudly flying in the south? The confed existed for 4 years. The south since the war existed for 160 years. The confed and all its symbols have no reference to southern culture other than pro slavery. That you equate the two is strong evidence that you are either a pro slaver or dangerously ignorant of history.

 

[Gospel]

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.

I wager that both cornbread and barbecue originated from Native Americans who were tragically genocided. Southern culture does not solely belong to ignorant individuals stuck in a 19th-century time capsule.

The truth is that both are examples of the benefits of cultural fusion, arising from communities where indigenous and immigrant communities were living side by side for decades. There's a little bit of Anahuac/Turtle Island, a little bit of Europe, and a little bit of West Africa in every marinade. We would be better off if we could learn to respect and celebrate that plurality instead of hiding it.

I'm fine with embracing and honor cultural fusions, but it's also important to address historical elements that don't deserve celebration. Specifically, the Confederacy that represents a painful and divisive chapter in American history, rooted in the defense of slavery and racial oppression. Instead of celebrating it, we should critically examine and learn from it, ensuring that we do not glorify a past that sought to divide and subjugate.

They're using the guise of historical significance to justify their statues, much like they used the Bible to justify the slavery upon which their statues were built.

 

[stanley]

Southern "culture", while subscribing to an ideology that justified slavery, goes beyond that, bring us priceless benefits like cornbread and barbeque.

I wager that both cornbread and barbecue originated from Native Americans who were tragically genocided. Southern culture does not solely belong to ignorant individuals stuck in a 19th-century time capsule.

Most certainly! BBQ came from Seminole iirc, and corn … yeah. Genocided.
I thought that was what made it good sarcasm.

That is what made it a good red herring to distract from your pro slaving nonsense and trying to justify promoting an inherently white supremacist organization like the Confed as thought it is merely cultural integration, even though those who fly the Confed flag were deeply and violently opposed to integration and equality under the law.