Rationalizing faith.

[skepticalbip]

Life and suffering appear inseparable, but if you are fortunate it comes in small dollops spread thinly.....

Ahh, someone moving toward acceptance of one of Buddhism's core teachings... 'life is suffering'. Another of the teachings is that desire is the cause of suffering.

 

[Politesse]

Life and suffering appear inseparable, but if you are fortunate it comes in small dollops spread thinly.....

Ahh, someone moving toward acceptance of one of Buddhism's core teachings... 'life is suffering'. Another of the teachings is that desire is the cause of suffering.

I was thinking the same thing! Acknowledging dukkha is the first step toward liberation, so it is said.

 

[steve_bank]

This would be a thread for social scince.

Modern productive pursuits and rituals such as:

Getting high and getting zombied out listening to music. Brain dead head banger fans at heavy metal concerts bobbing heads up and down.

Focusing on pets for which Americas spending billions of dollars.

Political polarization.

Pop culture that is getting absurdly decadent. The rise in diseases usually associated with the 'idle rich'. Maas glutonous consumption fueled by 24/7 marketing. Christianity on a personal level used to be about moderation and self restraint.

Kids identifying with gang-gangster identities. Fueled by white and black 'gangster music'.

Movies with extreme violence and guns for entertainment.


So, where are those positive pursuits, of course compared to religious faith? We rationalize destructive behavior under a broad interpterion of free speech. Free speech is a form of a faith carried to an illogical irrational extreme.

Why don't you challenge yourself to actively seek out positive ritual behaviors in society that are not religious? You found a few things that in your mind support your religious apologia and Other regard of society and that's it, and those are questionable. Nothing wrong with getting high with or without music. No one does that 24/7 and if someone does it's considered extreme.

There are innumerable examples of positive secular ritual in Western society. We celebrate birthdays and holidays, and every family has their own way of celebrating the society wide holidays and apply their own meaning to tradition. We celebrate life itself, and relationships, and having made it to a five year cancer-free diagnosis. We throw ashes of the dead in meaningful places.

Have you ever seen a balloon release? That is a secular ritual. It doesn't have to be rigidly performed or practiced on a schedule or have metaphysical meaning. A lot of people practice personal rituals that often begin with cognitive behavioral techniques maybe acquired for a specific problem but settling in our mental habits offering comfort and a means of raising our consciousness of the world around us.

Here's how some in my family have modified existing ritual for Easter. We gave the egg dying a more important and relevant meaning in addition to just the fun of it. I'll paste it here from another thread instead of typing it out again.

Eight year old niece is spending Ishtar weekend with me. After today, she knows all about elections, Bernie Sanders, and mythology. We saved out these six eggs for our myth making. We decided that these six eggs represent all that is important to us.

• Blue egg is the color of the sky, and also resembles a fat rocket or a blue planet, so that one represents the cosmos and also our love of space exploration and science.
• Green egg looks like a lush forest or the Earth, so that represents home, Earth, sustenance, mammal fellowship, and kinship with all life on the planet (especially the cats, for us).
• Yellow egg = the sun, life's power source.
• Orange egg looks like a dragon's egg, so that represents imagination, wonder, and technology.
• Pink egg is striped and looks like some kind of sweet fruit, so that one represents joy, pleasure, and gratitude.
• Violet egg didn't get a designation before niece had to leave to go home, so it can represent the possibilities that exist in the form of a wave waiting to be collapsed into particles (sparkly ones, of course) and also represents the non-linear nature of the universe through its ability to serve as a direct connection between the blue cosmos egg and the pink egg of joy, meaning there's no beginning or end to creation.

Happy Easter!

View attachment 30305

Photo:six eggs in rainbow colors.

Why would you not want to see the world with better eyes (having nothing to do with your physical vision impairment, which I'm aware of and would not mock)? Why would anyone not seek out what's beautiful and wonderful in the world around us? Even the mundane, when looked at closely and without regard to whatever thoughts arise about it, can be tremendous sources of comfort and clarity. A cup of coffee can do this. Anything not totally scary or threatening or depraved can serve as the counterbalance to the scary, threatening, or depraved. At the same time, what we consider profane is often not a negative at all but a remnant of religious indoctrination.

Some of us have to work at practicing seeing the good in the world because of negativity bias as well as our personalities and ideologies reinforcing our negative judgments of the world. It's work, but it doesn't harm or hurt. Look for the helpers, Steve!

Here's someone who was morally far superior to his claimed religion, which was Presbyterian. He's one of those rare humans who had the very human wherewithal to use only the positive and kind aspects of his religion. Unfortunately, he was only one man and could not inspire his wider denomination to reject the exclusivity, punishment, us. vs. them, authoritarian, life-denying, self loathing, violent and depraved aspects of their theology. They have the capacity to do it, but not the will or knowledge because their religious/political community won't permit questioning or change.

View attachment 33222 Quote from Mr. Rogers. “When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news,” Rogers said to his television neighbors, “my mother would say to me, ‘Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.’”

On the question of having straw for a brain Scarecrow said '...people without a brain do a lot of talking..."

Why do I need a 'positive ritual"? The good feeling of the ritual of living itself is all one really needs, once you strip away all the nonsense and endless argument. Mediation in part is about dispersing the endless analysis one gets hooked into in our miden culture. Constant debate that deflects inconvenient thoughts about self and reality. Finding a stable center. Artificial rituals are for those too lazy to think things through.

Shopping for food, preparing food, and feeding yourself is a positive life ritual, not a chore.. Being consiosu;y aware of breathing and how it gives you life is a positive ritual. Socializing is a positive ritual ....and an endless stream of witty witticisms. I got a million of them.

Get it Grasshopper? I should charge for personal counseling.

When do you stop searching and just start living?

This is a derail. Start a thread on philosophyor the secular forum.

 

[Angry Floof]

Why don't you challenge yourself to actively seek out positive ritual behaviors in society that are not religious? You found a few things that in your mind support your religious apologia and Other regard of society and that's it, and those are questionable. Nothing wrong with getting high with or without music. No one does that 24/7 and if someone does it's considered extreme.

There are innumerable examples of positive secular ritual in Western society. We celebrate birthdays and holidays, and every family has their own way of celebrating the society wide holidays and apply their own meaning to tradition. We celebrate life itself, and relationships, and having made it to a five year cancer-free diagnosis. We throw ashes of the dead in meaningful places.

Have you ever seen a balloon release? That is a secular ritual. It doesn't have to be rigidly performed or practiced on a schedule or have metaphysical meaning. A lot of people practice personal rituals that often begin with cognitive behavioral techniques maybe acquired for a specific problem but settling in our mental habits offering comfort and a means of raising our consciousness of the world around us.

Here's how some in my family have modified existing ritual for Easter. We gave the egg dying a more important and relevant meaning in addition to just the fun of it. I'll paste it here from another thread instead of typing it out again.

Photo:six eggs in rainbow colors.

Why would you not want to see the world with better eyes (having nothing to do with your physical vision impairment, which I'm aware of and would not mock)? Why would anyone not seek out what's beautiful and wonderful in the world around us? Even the mundane, when looked at closely and without regard to whatever thoughts arise about it, can be tremendous sources of comfort and clarity. A cup of coffee can do this. Anything not totally scary or threatening or depraved can serve as the counterbalance to the scary, threatening, or depraved. At the same time, what we consider profane is often not a negative at all but a remnant of religious indoctrination.

Some of us have to work at practicing seeing the good in the world because of negativity bias as well as our personalities and ideologies reinforcing our negative judgments of the world. It's work, but it doesn't harm or hurt. Look for the helpers, Steve!

Here's someone who was morally far superior to his claimed religion, which was Presbyterian. He's one of those rare humans who had the very human wherewithal to use only the positive and kind aspects of his religion. Unfortunately, he was only one man and could not inspire his wider denomination to reject the exclusivity, punishment, us. vs. them, authoritarian, life-denying, self loathing, violent and depraved aspects of their theology. They have the capacity to do it, but not the will or knowledge because their religious/political community won't permit questioning or change.

View attachment 33222 Quote from Mr. Rogers. “When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news,” Rogers said to his television neighbors, “my mother would say to me, ‘Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.’”

On the question of having straw for a brain Scarecrow said '...people without a brain do a lot of talking..."

Why do I need a 'positive ritual"? The good feeling of the ritual of living itself is all one really needs, once you strip away all the nonsense and endless argument. Mediation in part is about dispersing the endless analysis one gets hooked into in our miden culture. Constant debate that deflects inconvenient thoughts about self and reality. Finding a stable center. Artificial rituals are for those too lazy to think things through.

Shopping for food, preparing food, and feeding yourself is a positive life ritual, not a chore.. Being consiosu;y aware of breathing and how it gives you life is a positive ritual. Socializing is a positive ritual ....and an endless stream of witty witticisms. I got a million of them.

Get it Grasshopper? I should charge for personal counseling.

When do you stop searching and just start living?

This is a derail. Start a thread on philosophyor the secular forum.

For fuck's sake, Steve. YOU were the one who mentioned rituals! It's something humans do. We create myths and rituals and stories, and they all have practical purpose and meaning, none of which requires a pretend god for whom men serve as proxies or any religion thus far devised, because those all change and morph anyway because that's the nature of reality whether your indoctrination can handle that or not.

Searching is part of living. You're not saying anything of use here, just reacting to me and doing whatever you can do make me wrong. When do YOU stop rationalizing and start thinking? And living? And give up defending the depravity and poison of Christianity?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

For fuck's sake, Steve. YOU were the one who mentioned rituals! It's something humans do. We create myths and rituals and stories, and they all have practical purpose and meaning, none of which requires a pretend god for whom men serve as proxies or any religion thus far devised, because those all change and morph anyway because that's the nature of reality whether your indoctrination can handle that or not.

Searching is part of living. You're not saying anything of use here, just reacting to me and doing whatever you can do make me wrong. When do YOU stop rationalizing and start thinking? And living? And give up defending the depravity and poison of Christianity?

Agreed to the point that his comments are spot on and have everything to do with a discussion of faith, be it religious faith or not.

 

[Angry Floof]

For fuck's sake, Steve. YOU were the one who mentioned rituals! It's something humans do. We create myths and rituals and stories, and they all have practical purpose and meaning, none of which requires a pretend god for whom men serve as proxies or any religion thus far devised, because those all change and morph anyway because that's the nature of reality whether your indoctrination can handle that or not.

Searching is part of living. You're not saying anything of use here, just reacting to me and doing whatever you can do make me wrong. When do YOU stop rationalizing and start thinking? And living? And give up defending the depravity and poison of Christianity?

Agreed to the point that his comments are spot on and have everything to do with a discussion of faith, be it religious faith or not.

Yep. He likes making claims that some religious belief or practice is crucial to human well being and then will just throw out a new strawman when such claims are debunked. There's nothing in religion that can't be had without it and Steve knows that, but for some reason can't admit it.

 

[DBT]

I guess that very few are willing to give up (or question) the things that provide pleasure, comfort or meaning in life.

 

[abaddon]

nm

 

[Learner]

I guess that very few are willing to give up (or question) the things that provide pleasure, comfort or meaning in life.

I second the nm.

Thesists have a similar take to the above, e.g., following as according to Jesus, will conflict with (having to give up) certain pleasures, comforts or ways of life etc..

 

[Learner]

For fuck's sake, Steve. YOU were the one who mentioned rituals! It's something humans do. We create myths and rituals and stories, and they all have practical purpose and meaning, none of which requires a pretend god for whom men serve as proxies or any religion thus far devised, because those all change and morph anyway because that's the nature of reality whether your indoctrination can handle that or not.

Searching is part of living. You're not saying anything of use here, just reacting to me and doing whatever you can do make me wrong. When do YOU stop rationalizing and start thinking? And living? And give up defending the depravity and poison of Christianity?

Agreed to the point that his comments are spot on and have everything to do with a discussion of faith, be it religious faith or not.

Yep. He likes making claims that some religious belief or practice is crucial to human well being and then will just throw out a new strawman when such claims are debunked. There's nothing in religion that can't be had without it and Steve knows that, but for some reason can't admit it.

Concurring with the bit in bold, absolutely. The very thing you much deplore and highlight a lot, i.e., authoritarianism for example ... exist because of the mindstate of certain people who just don't like sharing with others, so to speak.

 

[DBT]

I guess that very few are willing to give up (or question) the things that provide pleasure, comfort or meaning in life.

I second the nm.

Thesists have a similar take to the above, e.g., following as according to Jesus, will conflict with (having to give up) certain pleasures, comforts or ways of life etc..

Nm? Setting aside the msterial comforts and riches of the world in exchange for an eternal reward in Heaven? How many do that?

 

[steve_bank]

The Jesus of the gospels s33ms to moistly be speaking to those at the bottom. Bear your burden, if you are a slave 'be a credt ti your master'. The reward is in a heaven

The Lord's Prayer was about thanks for having enough food for one more day.

The early Christians were not about self denial, it was about dealing with a harsh reality. The Romanization of a Jewish heretic sect is what led to today. The 'Roman' Catholic Church with a Roman style authoritarian power structure. Pope as an emperor., historically with iindependent wealth and military power.

That is probably the cultural source of our god and country dominate the wolrd philosophy.

As to faith, without the one story of the resurrection there is no Christianity. The faith is in an afterlife. conquering death.

The secular pursuit is staying young eternally. Nobody ever early grows up in our youth culture.

 

[steve_bank]

For fuck's sake, Steve. YOU were the one who mentioned rituals! It's something humans do. We create myths and rituals and stories, and they all have practical purpose and meaning, none of which requires a pretend god for whom men serve as proxies or any religion thus far devised, because those all change and morph anyway because that's the nature of reality whether your indoctrination can handle that or not.

Searching is part of living. You're not saying anything of use here, just reacting to me and doing whatever you can do make me wrong. When do YOU stop rationalizing and start thinking? And living? And give up defending the depravity and poison of Christianity?

Agreed to the point that his comments are spot on and have everything to do with a discussion of faith, be it religious faith or not.

Yep. He likes making claims that some religious belief or practice is crucial to human well being and then will just throw out a new strawman when such claims are debunked. There's nothing in religion that can't be had without it and Steve knows that, but for some reason can't admit it.

Social stability is not crucial to survival? Read history much? That is what progessives seem to ingore by proting extreme diversity.

Results are seen daily in the news. My perennial qetion is what makes you think a year from now the stores will be filled with food? That faith is based on enough people buying into a common identity and going to work every day.

Here in Seattle it has subsided but we witnessed leaderless mobs in the streets, ;pitchforks in the street'.

Religion used to be a thin cap on chaos, unless you wish to argue as some do humans let to themselves will naturaly get along and all will be well.
When we toppled Husein and gave Iraq elections, individual farmed factions arose and began a civil war.

Today pro sports is a social glue. A big fan event was the yearly NFL draft ritual. People talk about it. Loosing Kobe Bryant for many fans was like loosing a family member.

China believes western liberal systems will fail. They force a cultural political and social conformity in schools and politics.

The big question at the founding of the USA was whether or not people can rule themselves. That is an open question. The glue that once held us together is eroding, and religion was part of it.

What is the nythical beast that eats itself.

And Grasshopper, as the saying goes it is about the journey not getting somewhere. A faith in searching for something you can not quite define.

I forgot which one, when the Dallas Cowboys won a Superbowl the quarterback commented, 'Is this it?', It was not notionally satisfying.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If you thought the world was going to end in the year 33 or 34, then all of Jesus' business about birds not having barns to store food in, yet still being fed "by God", might resonate. (Actually, birds spend all day pecking at the ground for anything to eat -- I'd hardly call them an example of having their food handed to them.) Today's insurance lobby would probably ramp up their spending if they could get MT 6:25-34 ('Do not be anxious about your life') excised. Actually no, because whatever's in the Bible that believers don't much like, they ignore.

 

[Angry Floof]

Yep. He likes making claims that some religious belief or practice is crucial to human well being and then will just throw out a new strawman when such claims are debunked. There's nothing in religion that can't be had without it and Steve knows that, but for some reason can't admit it.

Social stability is not crucial to survival?

Social stability can be had without religion. Please stop perpetuating the lie that it can't. Social stability can be had without authoritarian cult mentality of a few in power while the rest obey, which inevitably leads to abuse and inequality.

Shared values, beliefs, and practices have nothing to do with religion unless someone introduces religion into the mix, and throughout history, that often happens through force and abuse. Humans enjoyed social stability for eons before religion. And I'm not saying that all was rainbows and butterflies for eons, just that whenever social stability occurred, it occurred without religious bullshit riding on top of it like a parasite as it does today and for the last however many millennia.

Read history much?

Do you? There is a non-stop stream of religious atrocity running through all of human history.

That is what progessives seem to ingore by proting extreme diversity.

No, we just ignore ideological nonsense that is at best useless and at worst detrimental to the well being of humans. The well being of humanity is not the goal of authoritarian religion. At best, that is lip service.

And diversity is crucial to all life. The ideological systems that humans have devised, religion, economies, etc., operate by what's in our heads, not by the natural world around us. Societies that are not diverse are prone to prejudice and discrimination, and if it is a religious society of the authoritarian Abrahamic type, abuse and atrocity.

Results are seen daily in the news.

Religious abuse and atrocity is a daily news topic, yes. But I doubt your news consumptions is diverse. I'm guessing that if your news sources were a society of people, they'd be cut off from the rest of the world, severely inbred, sick and crippled by birth defects, and facing extinction due to lack of diversity.

My perennial qetion is what makes you think a year from now the stores will be filled with food?

I don't know that, especially now with a pandemic that threatens to worsen through virus mutation as well as through human reckless stupidity. There is a real danger of food not being in stores in a year. I just don't think it will be because I believe most people do not want to destroy our government and society because their social dominance cult is not in charge and they've been manipulated by right wing hate and fear mongering to believe this is a realistic or humane solution to anything. It will be because there are too many people who do want that to happen.

That faith is based on enough people buying into a common identity and going to work every day.

No, it's based in enough people not buying into us vs. them identities and going to work every day with thoughts of calling the cops on black people and murdering liberals. My faith is based in the fact that most humans, even most of those who have been manipulated by fear and rage making them support authoritarian ideals, do not want anyone to suffer and are willing to help any human being who needs help regardless of their identity.

This isn't even my ideal or anyone's ideal. It's true. The world and the people around you are not the demons your ideological leanings and "news" sources want you to believe.

Here in Seattle it has subsided but we witnessed leaderless mobs in the streets, ;pitchforks in the street'.

You would have a much more realistic and nuanced understanding of Seattle if your "news" sources were more diverse and your world view more humane.

Religion used to be a thin cap on chaos, unless you wish to argue as some do humans let to themselves will naturaly get along and all will be well.
When we toppled Husein and gave Iraq elections, individual farmed factions arose and began a civil war.

Punishment and threats are effective tools for controlling people. Even mother dogs will bark menacingly at her own pups when they get too excited and she wants some peace. But that doesn't mean punishment and threats make for a useful world view or basis for any kind of ideology other than the social dominance authoritarian cult kind.

By challenging the authoritarian, tribalistic, and ignorance-reinforcing aspects of religion, yes, people will get along much better, much more peacefully. Yes, Big, hard yes. This doesn't mean perfection, though. I know your black and white way of thinking means that if there are any microscopic problems with something you disagree with, it must be absolutely wrong. So no, not perfection, but not atrocity, either.

Authoritarian religion can only be held in check when wider society doesn't allow its stupider and more inhumane tendencies to thrive. There are numerous Christian churches that prove this by their conscious decisions to not allow those same aspects to thrive in their churches. But they don't control the mainstream and even support it in a perverse way by perpetuating the ideological identity.

Today pro sports is a social glue. A big fan event was the yearly NFL draft ritual. People talk about it. Loosing Kobe Bryant for many fans was like loosing a family member.

Pro sports is just as Noam Chomsky said it is, training in irrational jingoism. Kobe Bryant is not your family. He's a sports star who doesn't know you or care about you. But thank you for mentioning this because it is an excellent example of how irrational tribalism thrives beneath a false veneer of family or whatever window dressing backward ideologies provide as the acceptable narrative.

China believes western liberal systems will fail.

If that's the case then China is basing its beliefs on the U.S. and not western society as a whole. Furthermore, current rising of authoritarianism across western societies to varying levels has most certainly solidified that belief. Our authoritarian butt rash, if it continues unchecked, threatens to dismantle any western institutions of progress and human well being.

They force a cultural political and social conformity in schools and politics.

That they do, and their religion is only missing the godhead and dear leader put in its place. I object to any authoritarian propaganda and conformity, whether it's your religious flavor or some other.

I bet you could identify lots more authoritarian dogma and concepts in Chinese culture and politics, which means you could identify them in mainstream Christianity and right wing politics in the U.S. if you wanted to be honest about all this. "Conform to my authoritarian ideology or else," is a common theme that doesn't require a god but does require authority figures that represent one absolute figure.

The big question at the founding of the USA was whether or not people can rule themselves. That is an open question. The glue that once held us together is eroding, and religion was part of it.

Religion still is part of that erosion. But again, every single generation thinks its the end times, that their experiences and world events are the ones that will destroy us all. I suppose their chances of being right are not zero, but literally all of history and the fact that we're still here and spread all over the globe suggest reason for optimism, not to mention all the other reasons for optimism that the world isn't ending. But that doesn't mean nations won't fall or that people won't suffer for the stupidity, instability, abuses that authoritarian, animal brain tribalistic morons bring about.

What is the nythical beast that eats itself.

Weird sidetrack, but ok. It's a symbol of eternity or infinity. It does not bear upon the reality that humankind learns and changes, and that we can consciously affect our learning and changing as opposed to being trapped in ignorance by religious lies while authority figures and their wealthy sycophants serve themselves.

And Grasshopper, as the saying goes it is about the journey not getting somewhere. A faith in searching for something you can not quite define.

Calling me grasshopper doesn't make you sound wise, Steve. I agree, though. There is much benefit and joy in searching for something you can't quite define. That is the definition of human endeavor, ingenuity, problem solving, truth seeking, science, love of puzzles and stories, and on and on. Religion doesn't provide any of those things. At best, a sane, humane religion helps nurture those things without fear of change or fear of Other. At worst... well, you are well aware of how religion suppresses and punishes that love of seeking among humans that are infected with it.

I forgot which one, when the Dallas Cowboys won a Superbowl the quarterback commented, 'Is this it?', It was not notionally satisfying.

Well, sports accomplishments don't really matter. They might be readily available tools for people to practice gaining skill and sportsmanship, not bad things in the least, but sports don't really add to the advancement of human knowledge or well being. They're fun, but they're not examples of human curiosity or ingenuity, nor are they examples of systems that have the potential of raising consciousness or the well being of a tribe of seven billion. Just like religion, only a few make it to the top only to find that there is no satisfaction there. Also like religion, people can be better humans without ever playing sports or caring about its tribal nature or stars. Very fitting that you would turn to sports in this way on the topic of rationalizing faith.

 

[steve_bank]

Obviously you don't seem to have a clue as to what I am taking about.

By any cnance are you a student?

Of course religion is not necessary. Again the question is what is replacing it and in the long term is it better or worse.
merrging cukrture based on pop images in the nedia. We loosened cultural norms in the 60s and now we have major problems with substance abuse on a large scale. Remove the social stigma of a single unwed moter and now we have a problem with women unable to support children, hence Biden's national day care proposal. Get rid of he social norm against sexual promiscuity and STDs went up.

There are always positives and negatives including religion.

Look around, religion IS being replaced. It is being relaced by mass makeing images in commercials, music, and video, none of it under your control. Entertainment media is creating anew mythology.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Hell, the conservatives replaced religion with the dollar decades ago. They just haven't announced it on Fox.

 

[Angry Floof]

Obviously you don't seem to have a clue as to what I am taking about.

Yeah, that's the ticket! We'll go with that. (But remember, other people do read these threads.)

By any cnance are you a student?

No. Why? Hoping your religious narrative about education might serve as a magical excuse to dismiss my comments?

Of course religion is not necessary. Again the question is what is replacing it

Once again, culture is constantly morphing and changing and replacing itself, just like religion and just like individual people. Why do you constantly need reminding of this?

and in the long term is it better or worse.
merrging cukrture based on pop images in the nedia.

See above.

We loosened cultural norms in the 60s and now we have major problems with substance abuse on a large scale.

The "war on drugs" policies and ethos as well as other factors not remotely related to hippies of the 60s cause problems with substance abuse. How is it possible that you don't know this?

Just how steeped are you in 1970s conservatism? You realize five decades have passed since then, don't you?

Remove the social stigma of a single unwed moter and now we have a problem with women unable to support children,

Remove the social stigma of single mothers and you have a culture that respects and supports single mothers. The "social stigma" you speak of is religious moralizing and the religious tendency to punish non-conformity. Single mothers are doing nothing wrong whatsoever in being single moms. Capitalism has given us an economy that is further and further out of reach for more and more people, including single mothers. But also there are numerous single mothers who are affluent enough to be conveniently ignored by your way of thinking.

hence Biden's national day care proposal.

The evidence shows that the earlier education and socialization begin, the better the chances of success throughout life. We already pay for education K through 12 because we know the benefits of education. Now we also know the even greater benefits of extending education, and so we support that as a society, just like we did when we instituted public education to begin with.

I don't know anyone who wants their own society to be uneducated more than right wing authoritarians.

Get rid of he social norm against sexual promiscuity and STDs went up.

Bullshit. Get rid of the ignorance and shame wrought by the religious right and educate kids and all problems related to sex diminish, including STDs and abortions.

How is it possible that you don't know this??

There are always positives and negatives including religion.

"Religion" just means culture condensed down to tribalism, stupidstition, and the urge to social dominance. No culture actually needs these things, nor does any culture need magic texts or holy authority figures.

Look around, religion IS being replaced.

Is this a copy and paste of my words somewhere previously in the thread? Yes, it's always changing, replacing itself along with culture and people.

It is being relaced by mass makeing images in commercials, music, and video

I disagree. Marketing and media have a heavy negative influence on culture but none of that is replacing religion. In fact, mainstream Christians in the U.S. are the most materialistic people you will ever meet. It's capitalism you have a problem with, Steve.

, none of it under your control.

No shit. Is this also a copy and paste of my own words? Maybe just a mistake in quoting?

Entertainment media is creating anew mythology.

We've always had entertainment and we are always creating our mythology all the time without ceasing. No one is obligated to watch TV or movies.

You are not the only one concerned about how capitalism is affecting us. People seeking out simpler lives, shedding unnecessary belongings, looking for slower, quieter living is a huge trend right now. We're seeking meaning that capitalistic media doesn't satisfy. We feel like our basic human empathy and love for each other is not nurtured or even acknowledged by capitalistic systems. And so we're all seeking something better, more humane and kind and based in the reality of nature, than the materialistic and superficial culture that capitalism offers. This is a normal and human response, and a positive one.

While you complain that non-religious ideology causes the rotting fruit of capitalism, the human beings around you are recognizing that our capitalistic culture doesn't recognize nature, including human nature, and we're all doing something about that, some by using that same media to share perspectives and ideas that help others to shed capitalistic bullshit from our lives and some are responding by blaming everything that doesn't conform to their right wing authoritarian religious world view.

There's no guarantee that we'll adapt in ways that offer peace and well being of a tribe of seven billion, but there never has been such a guarantee. We're a tribe of small-group evolution adapting to a tribe of seven billion while mucking about in a swamp of capitalism. It's mainly just religion and right wing ideologies that presume to think they offer anything better than what they see already happening in the world.

 

[Angry Floof]

Hell, the conservatives replaced religion with the dollar decades ago. They just haven't announced it on Fox.

Succinct.

 

[DBT]

Hell, the conservatives replaced religion with the dollar decades ago. They just haven't announced it on Fox.

The love of money replaced love or faith in God long ago. You can't actually love something that you can't detect.

A dollar in the hand, it seems, is worth a thousand gods imagined in the mind.