Rationalizing faith.

[fromderinside]

No wonder people are making fortunes on narcotics legal and illegal. Humans seem to be addicts waiting to be recruited.

I wonder. Is that because humans are here and now beings or is it a consequence of our being so socially manipulatable.

 

[steve_bank]

Maybe it is genetic, we seek the safety of the herd or flock.

The archeological evidence seems to say the early humans had some kind of beliefs, and maybe an idea of an afterlife.

Survival directly depended on the group. Those who did not function in the group were shunned. Monogamy limits male aggression and conflict. The practice of rituals shows buy in to the group.

Every nation has a flag and a national song today.

To understand religion undestand the world around you. Religion carried to extremes has abuses, but so does nationalism and ethnicity.

The cultural and racial bias between China, Korea, and Japan has a very long histoyr. China is one of the most racially biased countries in the world. I listened to a BBC interview with a black African who chosen to go to China for school instead of the USA, and was confronted with cultural bias and exclusion.

 

[Angry Floof]

Maybe it is genetic, we seek the safety of the herd or flock.

The archeological evidence seems to say the early humans had some kind of beliefs, and maybe an idea of an afterlife.

Survival directly depended on the group. Those who did not function in the group were shunned. Monogamy limits male aggression and conflict. The practice of rituals shows buy in to the group.

Every nation has a flag and a national song today.

To understand religion undestand the world around you. Religion carried to extremes has abuses, but so does nationalism and ethnicity.

The cultural and racial bias between China, Korea, and Japan has a very long histoyr. China is one of the most racially biased countries in the world. I listened to a BBC interview with a black African who chosen to go to China for school instead of the USA, and was confronted with cultural bias and exclusion.

You just keep trying to muddy the waters. Some cultures/ideologies/nationalities/religions become poisonous authoritarian regimes that operate in specific and identifiable ways. This is not just human nature in general. It's the worst of humanity given power and neutralizing such destructive and inhumane cults, no matter how large, begins with criticism. Call out abuses, talk about those elements that give rise to authoritarian states and cults, and hold people accountable. A lack of accountability for the powerful is a hallmark of authoritarianism, and so holding them accountable is one way to dismantle the regime. Success is never guaranteed, but not insisting on accountability and not standing up to authoritarian abusers and not being willing to criticize or even acknowledge an authoritarian social dominance cult guarantees it will thrive and people will suffer.

 

[steve_bank]

Unless you argue there is sufficient difference among brains to account for different behavior, all behavior is a manifestation of the same basic human attributes. Unless you want to argue there is no genetic basis to our behavior and is has no influence on us. Humans are humans, cats are dogs are dogs. Domesticated dogs and cats that go feral revert to their genertc tendencies. Feral cats act their big cousins when they go feral. Females form groups to ward off aggressive males. Males will kill kittems to bring a feamle into het and create his own offspring.

Religion has in general on an individual level and group le been a thin veneer on the worse of our tendencies.

You can make the obvious response on the abuses of region, and I will again come back with the obvious...all organized human behavior has an abusive element. Power, corruption, self preservation. Religion, nationalism, racial and ethnic identity, and all te rest. Unions.

My gradfather was a union orgNIZER IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY. wHEN i WAS A TEEN MY FATHER TOOK ME TO TE WDDING OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNION MY GRANDFATHER HELED FOUND.

Unions went from bargaining for wages, benefits, and working conditions to powerful political organizations with money.

Religion is but one part of the totality. IMO all things considered not at the top of the issues list and not the root cause of our problms.

One of the majpr problms is the idea of freedomof speech and action taken to the extreme.

The free speech clause in the 1st Amendment is used to justify just about any behavior and speech. Pop culture under liberal unterpretaion if free specch and expression somebody resold shoes with his blood injected into the soles.

If you are to call out religion, there is a lot oter issue to dwell on as well.

 

[Angry Floof]

For fuck's sake, religion specifically hijacks certain behaviors and aspects of psychology and social instincts.

If you are unable to recognize a behavior and make a conscious effort to change it, then there is something wrong with you and you are not like the rest of us humans. We are capable of being aware of our own thoughts and behaviors and of changing our behavior. We're also capable of recognizing when others' behaviors do harm and to recognize abuse.

Not everything that is instinctive is good for us modern humans when left unexamined.

If you have some animal brain urges that you can't control, you can get help from the rest of us to either change your behavior to make you less of a menace to the world around you or we can limit your freedom to move about posing a danger to yourself and others.

If you recognize some aspect of your own thoughts and behaviors as not conducive to your own well being or the well being of others, you have the option of changing your behavior in light of your new awareness of yourself in regard to that particular behavior.

Why is this rocket science? You're trying to claim that any human behavior is fine because it's human behavior, as if you have no clue that learning about yourself and human behavior in general and using that understanding to help yourself to be more than just a mindless animal is not an option.

You're happy to criticize the cartoons in your 1970s right wing ignorance as the source of all problems but you can't even acknowledge outright abusers right in front of you. What is so fucking valuable to you that you would so aggressively protect abusers and manipulators? What are you really protecting and defending here?

Your claims that religion is "just another human behavior" are nothing more than muddying the waters. Of course they are human behavior. But human behavior can be questioned and human behavior can change.

Your ancient animal brain reflexes are no excuse to live like a baboon and not an intelligent, self aware human being. Why the fuck is this rocket science? Jesus fucking christ.

Grow a conscience, Steve. Stop excusing and defending the worst behaviors among us and pretending religious abuse is "just human behavior, nothing to see here" and the religious beliefs and environment that enable those abuses are ok. They are not, and as an intelligent, self aware human being, you have the capacity to protect the vulnerable and hold abusers accountable, as well as the capacity to understand why the fuck you would do that in the first place.

Holy fuck, I worry about the state of humanity if your way of thinking prevails.

Yes, there's a lot of shit to call out, but religion does not get a free pass just because all their friends do it, too.

 

[steve_bank]

Well fuckety fuck fuck fuck...that's a reasoned response.

Religion, art. music, clothes as fashion, intellectualism, philosophy and all of pop culture serve one purpose. That us to hide the truth from ourselves that we are just animals living in the ecosystem alongside other animals. This is not exactly a profound revelation.

Watch any of Jane Goodall's documentaries on chimps? We study them to understand ourselves, they are our genetic cousins.

And that my friend is a very theist creationist view, that there is all creatures, and there there is is us humans who are ourside of that as intended by god.

It is about avoiding a feeling of nakedness in the environment.

Where ae you without your thoughts to comfort you? You see, we atheists in many respects are no different than theists in rationing.

Intellectuals pick their windmills with which to do battle with...and pat themselves on the back feeling good about winng that battle.

 

[Angry Floof]

Well fuckety fuck fuck fuck...that's a reasoned response.

Religion, art. music, clothes as fashion, intellectualism, philosophy and all of pop culture serve one purpose. That us to hide the truth from ourselves that we are just animals living in the ecosystem alongside other animals. This is not exactly a profound revelation.

Some of those things are better than others at helping us to enlighten ourselves, understand ourselves and our world, and genuinely articulate our experiences. It's worth it to examine what all those things offer humanity. Fanaticism and organized ignorance do not get a free pass by trying to blend in with art, philosophy, etc., when it does not go with the others. Philosophy teaches us to question and offers quite a lot about how to question.

Art is a sphere that allows for honest expression. It does not seek to make you believe falsehoods in order to diminish and control you. Art can be used to influence people. There's a reason the middle ages in Europe produced so much religious art. Hint: It's because many of those artists did their work in places where religion controlled society and often would not allow art of other kinds.

Clothes as fashion? A facet of art. See above.

Watch any of Jane Goodall's documentaries on chimps? We study them to understand ourselves, they are our genetic cousins.

No shit. And when we learn something new about ourselves, presumably we incorporate that new understanding and in some way that new understanding changes us and we evolve. But I suspect not everyone does. New information seems to just bounce right off their rigid world view.

And that my friend is a very theist creationist view, that there is all creatures, and there there is is us humans who are ourside of that as intended by god.

Well, that is stupid and escapist and offers nothing of understanding, and intelligent, grownup humans can and should dismiss such nonsense and treat it with contempt. People who continue to purposely, actively, fanatically throw such bullshit at the rest of us while condemning us to hell for not conforming to the nonsense absolutely should be treated with contempt until they stop. There is no excuse for that. There is no reason to respect such nonsense or the adults who peddle it

Jane Goodall's chimps offer us mountains more understanding of ourselves than weird ass magic stories from religion. Religion is a bulwark against understanding. It offers infantile stories and manipulations to believe those stories. If you really do respect the human beings under the control and influence of such nonsense, you should be condemning and exposing it, too. The shore story that you respect religion because you respect the people who believe and they have the right to believe it is a cowardly, contemptible copout. As long as people are lied to and manipulated and abused under the guise of "help" and "spiritual ministry," I will be objecting to every bit of those lies and practices. I don't understand why you don't. You don't strike me as a fearful person in spite of your fear based world view.

It is about avoiding a feeling of nakedness in the environment.

Sham stories and authority figures don't offer anything that could actually help anyone with feelings of vulnerability. Vulnerability is manipulated by religion. Shame on you for implying religion could possibly help in that way. A religion that does help in that way is not Christianity or at least any mainstream strain of it. Again, I direct your attention to the Quakers.

Where ae you without your thoughts to comfort you? You see, we atheists in many respects are no different than theists in rationing.

Speak for yourself. I'm not pathological about existential uncertainty. It's a fact of human existence. Religion wants you to feel like you can change that or escape reality. Aren't you the one who is all "drugs r bad, mkay?" The drug of lies and ignorance is not a safe drug.

Intellectuals pick their windmills with which to do battle with...and pat themselves on the back feeling good about winng that battle.

How would you recognize someone who doesn't?

 

[Angry Floof]

Every time you try to sneak religion into the rest of human experience and try to make it blend in to escape its sins, I'm reminded of this guy I used to know who had a drinking problem. He joined AA and quit, but part of AA is talking about the shitty things you did while drunk and being honest about them. One of the stories he told was about when he was driving drunk and caused a terrible crash. A crowd showed up and he got out of his car and tried to blend in with the crowd and pretend it wasn't him driving.

That's what you do with religion. It's also kind of what religion does with itself, trying to hide its rot behind humane ideas and honesty that it doesn't have.

 

[Angry Floof]

Interesting (at least to me) side note: I just found out that Christopher Hitchens, the greatest gadfly to ever bite the ass of religion, arguably the person most openly, blatantly contemptuous of religion, one of the most hated by religionists and their apologists, none of whom could adequately prop up their lies and infantile beliefs in his presence, had a daughter in Quaker school. And he was totally okay with this.

So the most anti-religion guy on the planet had a kid in Quaker school. It's because he knew all about those elements of religion that make it a source of depravity and suffering in the world and he knew those elements don't exist in the Quaker faith. He said many times, not surprisingly, that he wanted his children to make up their own minds about religion and to let them explore all ideas. Quakers believe that, too. It's a fundamental tenet of the Quaker faith, not just lip service or a peripheral idea. It's basic to the Quaker understanding and regard for humankind, and Hitchens's, too. It's mine as well, incidentally.

 

[Learner]

Interesting (at least to me) side note: I just found out that Christopher Hitchens, the greatest gadfly to ever bite the ass of religion, arguably the person most openly, blatantly contemptuous of religion, one of the most hated by religionists and their apologists, none of whom could adequately prop up their lies and infantile beliefs in his presence, had a daughter in Quaker school. And he was totally okay with this.

Most hated by religionists and apologist?

Hmm, I don't think you've got it quite right. A touch on the over-exaggeration, secularist propoganda perhaps? Sure, there must be "some" out there that exists, but take for example William Craig Lane or Dr. Frank Turek, among others who have debated Christopher Hitchens. They all seem to had good relationships throughout the years when Hitchens was around. They still talk about him with respect.

It seems to me, this "Hitchens the most hated" viewpoint of yours, is reflecting YOUR "most hated" inner thoughts, so to speak, of religion ... especially the Christian Faith. But ok, fair enough if that's how you see it.

So the most anti-religion guy on the planet had a kid in Quaker school. It's because he knew all about those elements of religion that make it a source of depravity and suffering in the world and he knew those elements don't exist in the Quaker faith. He said many times, not surprisingly, that he wanted his children to make up their own minds about religion and to let them explore all ideas. Quakers believe that, too. It's a fundamental tenet of the Quaker faith, not just lip service or a peripheral idea. It's basic to the Quaker understanding and regard for humankind, and Hitchens's, too. It's mine as well, incidentally.

It doesn't stop there! His brother, Peter Hitchens, a former marxist, now a Christian and intelligent too, had an entertaining debate with brother Christopher about religion online. Both of them were great to watch. Hitchens V Hitchens.

*EDIT: Apologies - Revisiting the Hitchens v Hitchens ( it's been a while). The debate is also on politics.

 

[DBT]

Debate? How do you debate on behalf of faith?

 

[Learner]

Debate? How do you debate on behalf of faith?

You must of missed (if not ignored or forgotten) those many upon many video -recorded debates that's out there online. Whether you agree to how each individual defines their faith or not in their debates ...

It's been done my friend, regardless.

Those debates EXIST!

 

[DBT]

Debate? How do you debate on behalf of faith?

You must of missed (if not ignored or forgotten) those many upon many video -recorded debates that's out there online. Whether you agree to how each individual defines their faith or not in their debates ...

It's been done my friend, regardless.

Those debates EXIST!

The debates, like faith itself, do exist....but that doesn't mean that those arguing on behalf of faith have a leg to stand on.

 

[steve_bank]

Debate? How do you debate on behalf of faith?

You must of missed (if not ignored or forgotten) those many upon many video -recorded debates that's out there online. Whether you agree to how each individual defines their faith or not in their debates ...

It's been done my friend, regardless.

Those debates EXIST!

I hope I am not shaking your faith?

For me definition is unimportant, unless the faith or belief is harmful to others. All beliefs serve in the end provide an emotional shield and a sense of security. The internal Christian debates are just pointless distractions. Evangelicals reject Catholics and Mormons. Debates over who is a real Christian. Part and parcel of any social organization, religion is the same form as any group. Debate over something I see as myth and illusion and perhaps delusion means nothing to me.

I read a bio of Aquinas. His job was a theology 'hit man'. He traveled around debating those who questioned the Vatican orthodoxy. Thousands of years of theology, leading to violence and war.

I do not fear the valley of the shadow of death because god, living in denial of aging and death. If it is not one thing it is another.

Christian faith is a talisman to ward off evil, regardless of how you rationalize faith. It makes you feel secure.

I see most of modern western human culture to be about creating an emotional bubble keeping out the reality of our existence and nature. Religion being one of many.

I am not anti religion or any belief in general as long as it is not destructive.. Oppressing gays based on a few lines in an ancient text is harmful. Beiveing god will protect you and not getting vaccinated is harmful to society. Parents who deny mediqcl treatment for kids based on faith healing. Rationalizing absurdity through faith.

And again as I see it it is not just religion that can be harmful. There are plenty of other cultural facets that are harmful, and we are witnessing it. The rise in mass killings and addictions. Which is why I criticize AF for a singular focus on religion as a root cause of our ills.

 

[Politesse]

If there is a most hated atheist, I'm thunking it is probably Mao Zedong, whose family name has become a byword for everything Evangelicals fear and despise.

 

[steve_bank]

Christianity io all rationalisation.

The character of Jesus appears to be a Jewish rabbi preching to Jes about what would have been the impending fall to Rome. That was the geopolitics of the day.

Rome comdered the eary fllowers a heritc Jewsih sect. CWhat vecmae 'Christians' apporieted the Jewish scripture as their own.

From then on ot was ratnalization of actions and beleifs.

Rationalize away the Jewish dietary laws but keep the Leviticus injunction against gays. Christians freely pick and choose.

Fred Tompson who was a congressmen and actor who played a DA on Law And Order was quetioned about his divorce and marriage to a trophy wife and the biblical prohibition on divorce for convenience. He said he was right with god and god was right with him. The typical Christian rationalization of behavior.

There are 613 mandates that can be derived from the OT, they are online.

The RCC rationalizes the authority of the pope as being derived from s line of succession back to Peter as bishop of Rome.

Compared to a tradition like Buddhism there is little of direct structure and form to Christianity. Post Reformation any Christian can interpret scripture and rationalize behavior and action. Find a line in the bible and interpret to rationalize action.

Case in point, black slavery. Based on a story of one of Noah's sons being being turned black as a punishment with his decedents being cursed, those with black skin were subject to slavery without any moral issues.


A long list of rationalizations and justifications.

 

[DBT]

If there is a most hated atheist, I'm thunking it is probably Mao Zedong, whose family name has become a byword for everything Evangelicals fear and despise.

Any number of monsterous theists could be named...Ivan the terrible spent one part of his day in church praying to God, the next part in his Dungeon enjoying the screams of his torture victims.

 

[steve_bank]

Throughout the history of Christianity the main threat to Christians were other Christians.

Historically

Christians vs Muslims - today Egypt Coptics
Christians vs Jew - still simmering
Muslims vs Jews - today
Muslims vs Muslims - today
Christians vs Christians - N Ireland

It is ludicrous to invoke the likes of Mao and Stalin as atheist oppressors and ignore the factual bloody history of religion. Christianity has always ben a tool for oppression in the name of a faith, North American Native Americans know that better than anyone. Forced indoctrination of children into religion as a cultural genocide.



Hindus vs Muslims. - today

 

[Learner]

Throughout the history of Christianity the main threat to Christians were other Christians.

The main threat to Christianity AS according to 'Jesus's way of Chrstianity (how He says you should behave etc. & etc.) has largely been througout history, from those who hate Him, just as it's written it would be.

In a manner of speaking, they'll appear in all guises, even as "Christians," some as an enemy of Christ, or another example: as someone who's all about profitable personal gain. So depending on how one sees it, this would go with your "main threat to Christians were other Christians" line I quoted above. Unfortunately, preaching for profit, or other wrong doing by an individual in a church, gets falsely and mistakenly taken as representation of Jesus's Christianity.

'By their fruits' you'll notice, as Jesus says, i.e. by how they profess their faith - simply comparing with what Jesus teaches, love your neihbours and your enemies etc.

Historically

Christians vs Muslims - today Egypt Coptics
Christians vs Jew - still simmering
Muslims vs Jews - today
Muslims vs Muslims - today
Christians vs Christians - N Ireland

It is ludicrous to invoke the likes of Mao and Stalin as atheist oppressors and ignore the factual bloody history of religion. Christianity has always ben a tool for oppression in the name of a faith, North American Native Americans know that better than anyone. Forced indoctrination of children into religion as a cultural genocide.

Hindus vs Muslims. - today

Indeed, to hint the obvious: McDonald clan v Campbell clan, faith v faith and so on, so human.

Believers would agree with the above. Acknowledging and opposing the use of devised 'oppressive tools' by hijacking a faith - doing what they do by professing in the name of... just to bring about an agenda that is strangely at odds with the very faith foundation.

In regards to the word religion, to mean in context to organised, institutionalised, corporate, politicalised religion etc.. Theists (some if not all) will have the same POV as you and AF, assuming this is the context being used here. I have seen and heard many believers say they've left 'religion,' in the context just mentioned as they see it.. following Christ directly, by His teachings only IOW.

 

[Politesse]

If there is a most hated atheist, I'm thunking it is probably Mao Zedong, whose family name has become a byword for everything Evangelicals fear and despise.

Any number of monsterous theists could be named...Ivan the terrible spent one part of his day in church praying to God, the next part in his Dungeon enjoying the screams of his torture victims.

That wasn't really the question. My point is that I don't think old Hitch rates up there with the great horror-strewers of history. I always kind of liked the guy, despite our many political differences.