Rationalizing faith.

[DBT]

The remark is in response to a somewhat signing-out of this discussion:

Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
If religious folk want to call themselves sinners they only do it to make themselves superior to non-sinners, as odd as that sounds.

Keep your religious nuttery to yourselves is my advice.

Don't taint me with ignorant, destructive, self-righteous, superstitious, nonsensical pseudo-knowledge, religious or not.

We're all people, no one is special if one is mature enough to realize it. We all need to roll up our sleeves and get over our self anointing.

No prob with last line.

But what do think about faith as a means to truth? Would you say it's a valid means of sorting fact from fiction?

 

[steve_bank]

I have prposed there are social benefits to religion, however to us non believers nutty is an appropriate description for the negatives.

If Learned feels put upon, comnsdier as atheists baing labed as category imoral and evil. I heard f it frpm Christians personaly and I hear it when I sample Christian TV and radio.

It is no less than hate speech. It can be heard on FOX News.

Respect is a two way street, however with Christians it is generally one sided. There can be no capacitance of we who utterly reject Christianity.

Respect is a two way street, so is contempt.

Over the years Jews I have known in the USA have been far more accepting than Christians. A human connect regardless of beliefs. None of the constant emphasis on rationalizing beliefs like Christians. Yes I know there are extreme Jews.

 

[DBT]

I have prposed there are social benefits to religion, however to us non believers nutty is an appropriate description for the negatives.

If Learned feels put upon, comnsdier as atheists baing labed as category imoral and evil. I heard f it frpm Christians personaly and I hear it when I sample Christian TV and radio.

It is no less than hate speech. It can be heard on FOX News.

Respect is a two way street, however with Christians it is generally one sided. There can be no capacitance of we who utterly reject Christianity.

Respect is a two way street, so is contempt.

Over the years Jews I have known in the USA have been far more accepting than Christians. A human connect regardless of beliefs. None of the constant emphasis on rationalizing beliefs like Christians. Yes I know there are extreme Jews.

So much division and conflict over what is essentially nothing. Such is the power of imagination and need.

 

[rousseau]

I have prposed there are social benefits to religion, however to us non believers nutty is an appropriate description for the negatives

I look at religion as an arbitrary by-product of our psychology, not to be tied up with any sort of intrinsic purpose. It does have benefits for it's adherents, because communities build religious thought and structure based on their unique needs. But when we talk about impact on society at large it's likely a wash and too complicated to boil down to a binary good/bad.

Atheists tend to think of human culture as a progression, where reason is realized and religion is regressive, but this is a bit too linear. In practice religion is just a meaningless thing that happens because that's how humans think. If religion goes away in some places, the way of thinking doesn't change.

Culture, in sum, is a reflection of human physiology and not progressing in any meaningful sense beyond our technology and cultural knowledge.

Largely I agree with your point that when religion goes away there are other problems. Nowadays, people aren't constrained by a God, it's the cold-light of scientific rationalism: how to leverage reason to make money and compete.

 

[steve_bank]

I have prposed there are social benefits to religion, however to us non believers nutty is an appropriate description for the negatives

I look at religion as an arbitrary by-product of our psychology, not to be tied up with any sort of intrinsic purpose. It does have benefits for it's adherents, because communities build religious thought and structure based on their unique needs. But when we talk about impact on society at large it's likely a wash and too complicated to boil down to a binary good/bad.

Atheists tend to think of human culture as a progression, where reason is realized and religion is regressive, but this is a bit too linear. In practice religion is just a meaningless thing that happens because that's how humans think. If religion goes away in some places, the way of thinking doesn't change.

Culture, in sum, is a reflection of human physiology and not progressing in any meaningful sense beyond our technology and cultural knowledge.

Largely I agree with your point that when religion goes away there are other problems. Nowadays, people aren't constrained by a God, it's the cold-light of scientific rationalism: how to leverage reason to make money and compete.

I agree in general about psychology.

Hoere Isreali Jws rationalizing sieaure of land they claim was given by god inn tyhe bibe are rainimg destruction on the ones who are fighting back over the liost land.

The land seizure continues. The Israeli PM has been explicit, they have a right to the land as they see fir based on the bible.

American Christians have gone from strong anti antisemitism to rationalizing support for Israel based on a biblical Christian prophesy. The idea being the restoration of Israel and the Temple will usher in the Second Coming.

More theological rationalizing out of thin air.

 

[rousseau]

I have prposed there are social benefits to religion, however to us non believers nutty is an appropriate description for the negatives

I look at religion as an arbitrary by-product of our psychology, not to be tied up with any sort of intrinsic purpose. It does have benefits for it's adherents, because communities build religious thought and structure based on their unique needs. But when we talk about impact on society at large it's likely a wash and too complicated to boil down to a binary good/bad.

Atheists tend to think of human culture as a progression, where reason is realized and religion is regressive, but this is a bit too linear. In practice religion is just a meaningless thing that happens because that's how humans think. If religion goes away in some places, the way of thinking doesn't change.

Culture, in sum, is a reflection of human physiology and not progressing in any meaningful sense beyond our technology and cultural knowledge.

Largely I agree with your point that when religion goes away there are other problems. Nowadays, people aren't constrained by a God, it's the cold-light of scientific rationalism: how to leverage reason to make money and compete.

I agree in general about psychology.

Hoere Isreali Jws rationalizing sieaure of land they claim was given by god inn tyhe bibe are rainimg destruction on the ones who are fighting back over the liost land.

The land seizure continues. The Israeli PM has been explicit, they have a right to the land as they see fir based on the bible.

American Christians have gone from strong anti antisemitism to rationalizing support for Israel based on a biblical Christian prophesy. The idea being the restoration of Israel and the Temple will usher in the Second Coming.

More theological rationalizing out of thin air.

Is religion a cause or a vehicle, in this case? It sounds like the issue is power struggle.

It's interesting, though, when you put it in the light of justification. 'This is what God wants' instead of 'I just don't want to share with your tribe', religion acts as a kind of veil shrouding our real desires and instincts. It would allow us to maintain our self-image, and not see ourselves as the selfish.

 

[steve_bank]

I agree in general about psychology.

Hoere Isreali Jws rationalizing sieaure of land they claim was given by god inn tyhe bibe are rainimg destruction on the ones who are fighting back over the liost land.

The land seizure continues. The Israeli PM has been explicit, they have a right to the land as they see fir based on the bible.

American Christians have gone from strong anti antisemitism to rationalizing support for Israel based on a biblical Christian prophesy. The idea being the restoration of Israel and the Temple will usher in the Second Coming.

More theological rationalizing out of thin air.

Is religion a cause or a vehicle, in this case? It sounds like the issue is power struggle.

It's interesting, though, when you put it in the light of justification. 'This is what God wants' instead of 'I just don't want to share with your tribe', religion acts as a kind of veil shrouding our real desires and instincts. It would allow us to maintain our self-image, and not see ourselves as the selfish.

In my amature scientist opinion it is one of many manifestations of our basic genetic wiring in our brains. Birds pf a feter flock togeter. The herd instinct observed in oter animals.

 

[atrib]

The main threat to Christianity AS according to 'Jesus's way of Chrstianity (how He says you should behave etc. & etc.) has largely been througout history, from those who hate Him, just as it's written it would be.

Can you name some of these people who allegedly hate Jesus? Because I am drawing a complete blank here. I don't know anyone who actually hates Sauron or Voldemort either.

The main threat to Christianity is the fact that it is a religion based on a made up story which is both unsupported by evidence, and also lacking in wisdom or even common sense in many cases. The main threat to Christianity is a careful reading of the Bible accompanied by critical analyses of the various claims the book makes. You should try it sometime.

 

[atrib]

As it should be understood in Christianity: we are ALL sinners (understanding Christians included) ... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, etc. & etc..

Speak for yourself. If you need to flagellate and debase your ego by believing that you are broken and deserving of pain and punishment, so be it. Your self loathing is your business; I can't stop you feeling this way, no matter how repugnant such an ideology may sound to me. But don't pretend that you are speaking for me. We are not ALL sinners, so don't try to put your fucking complex on me.

 

[Angry Floof]

The main threat to Christianity AS according to 'Jesus's way of Chrstianity (how He says you should behave etc. & etc.) has largely been througout history, from those who hate Him, just as it's written it would be.

Can you name some of these people who allegedly hate Jesus? Because I am drawing a complete blank here. I don't know anyone who actually hates Sauron or Voldemort either.

The main threat to Christianity is the fact that it is a religion based on a made up story which is both unsupported by evidence, and also lacking in wisdom or even common sense in many cases. The main threat to Christianity is a careful reading of the Bible accompanied by critical analyses of the various claims the book makes. You should try it sometime.

Also, the fact that someone hates you or disagrees with you is not evidence for your beliefs. Anyone can create waves and annoy people. That has no bearing on the truth of their beliefs. You can be a contrarian who has some truth to share or one that is totally wrong in every assertion you make.

But this is a common idea among social dominance cults. "We are upsetting society, therefore we must be doing something right."

This is a very appealing idea to those who wish to confirm their beliefs without an honest effort to examine them.

It's appealing to believers and it's useful rhetoric for authority figures to keep followers loyal to the group and firmly entrenched in the belief system.

It's a stupid idea that people of conscience and willingness to question should recognize as such. Even skeptics sometimes fall for this one if only momentarily.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Can you name some of these people who allegedly hate Jesus? Because I am drawing a complete blank here. I don't know anyone who actually hates Sauron or Voldemort either.

Hope you get an answer! It's such a convenient (and whiney) trope from the religionists. The only reason you could oppose my faith is that you are in a state of rebellion against (God/Jesus/Zeus, whatever).
Now, replace Jesus, God, etc., with Trump, and you have a point, and the Trumpies are 100% right -- I do oppose him, I do reject everything he "stands" for (himself, mainly) and I do hate him and hope mountains of unpleasant things are about to befall him. That's the distinction -- Trump, is, unfortunately and most improbably, an actual human individual.

 

[DBT]

I wonder if Christians hate Brahman, and that's why they don't believe in the creative principle of Hinduism?

 

[steve_bank]

We are all sinners. yadda yadda yadda. Tired of hearing it. It is like a soap opera. Woe is me, whip myself on the back, oh woe is me...

One of the recent popes had an apertures for a little self flagellation. Aspects of the RCC can only be desribed as mental illness.

Christianity is a cult of pain and suffering. Christ in agony with bloody wounds is the image.

 

[southernhybrid]

For Learner:

I don't hate Jesus. I'm not even convinced he was a real person, but rather either a myth or a compilation of some radical, far left guy or guys who deeply influenced a lot of desperate people who were seeking for meaning or an escape from the harsh realities of their oppressive government. Basically, he was a cult figure, but possibly one who had a good influence on a lot of very poor people.

I like some of the things in the Christian myths, but the parts that try to make people feel like they are guilty of sinning is quite repulsive. It causes some people unnecessary guilt. Why not just embrace the more positive teachings in the Gospel and come to terms with the fact that the rest of it is nonsense, used to make people feel bad about themselves or worse yet, feel bad about those outside of their cult or tribe if that word sounds better. Why not just try and be the best person you are capable of being and disregard the really kooky parts of the myth?

I guess the thing about Christianity and some of the other patriarchal religions that bother me the most, is the idea that one must believe in order to be accepted by the gods. That's totally nuts! That is what helped me leave the religion of my childhood. It lacked fairness and justice. It eventually became obvious that it was all made up by men.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I guess the thing about Christianity and some of the other patriarchal religions that bother me the most, is the idea that one must believe in order to be accepted by the gods. That's totally nuts! That is what helped me leave the religion of my childhood. It lacked fairness and justice. It eventually became obvious that it was all made up by men.

Right. I always imagine that there are many in a typical church congregation who squirm because they just don't, down deep, believe. ("God lets you keep slaves and beat the shit out of them? Right. Samson caught 300 foxes, tied their tails together and lit them on fire to burn out the enemy's crops? Yeah right.")
Lily Tomlin's bag lady character, Tess, rambles on in one sketch about her contact with aliens: "They're not like God. They don't care if you believe in 'em or not!"
And of course, along with the required belief, there's the never-quenched need in the deity to be worshipped.

 

[southernhybrid]

I guess the thing about Christianity and some of the other patriarchal religions that bother me the most, is the idea that one must believe in order to be accepted by the gods. That's totally nuts! That is what helped me leave the religion of my childhood. It lacked fairness and justice. It eventually became obvious that it was all made up by men.

Right. I always imagine that there are many in a typical church congregation who squirm because they just don't, down deep, believe. ("God lets you keep slaves and beat the shit out of them? Right. Samson caught 300 foxes, tied their tails together and lit them on fire to burn out the enemy's crops? Yeah right.")
Lily Tomlin's bag lady character, Tess, rambles on in one sketch about her contact with aliens: "They're not like God. They don't care if you believe in 'em or not!"
And of course, along with the required belief, there's the never-quenched need in the deity to be worshipped.

Agreed! What's up with a god who punishes people for the simple inability to believe that it exists, but rewards those who can be total assholes as long as they believe? Did you ever see the movie, "Bedazzled". In the movie Satan says that he doesn't like that fact that forgiveness means anyone can go to heaven at the last minute by simply asking for forgiveness. I think the line is, "I lost Mussolini that way. Milli regreti and up he goes". ( not sure if my Italian is spelled correctly, but you get the point. )

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I guess the thing about Christianity and some of the other patriarchal religions that bother me the most, is the idea that one must believe in order to be accepted by the gods. That's totally nuts! That is what helped me leave the religion of my childhood. It lacked fairness and justice. It eventually became obvious that it was all made up by men.

Right. I always imagine that there are many in a typical church congregation who squirm because they just don't, down deep, believe. ("God lets you keep slaves and beat the shit out of them? Right. Samson caught 300 foxes, tied their tails together and lit them on fire to burn out the enemy's crops? Yeah right.")
Lily Tomlin's bag lady character, Tess, rambles on in one sketch about her contact with aliens: "They're not like God. They don't care if you believe in 'em or not!"
And of course, along with the required belief, there's the never-quenched need in the deity to be worshipped.

No doubt lots of people practice religion because they are afraid. Fear is probably the primary religious motivator, it certainly was in my early life being raised catholic. Comforting rituals likely come second, taking in the magic show weekly, partaking in the interactive theater, seeing friends who share your quirky affliction, professing one's magical inclinations as a group. But in the end it's fear primarily driving the behavior. The ones who are on the belief fence stay perched out of fear.

It's also a lucrative business that can last a lifetime. Most of the silliness ought to be gone after age 10 but cultivating fear certainly pays big dividends for lots of people and can last a lifetime. Life isn't easy and religious behavior is like an insurance policy where the premium payments never go away.

 

[Learner]

The main threat to Christianity AS according to 'Jesus's way of Chrstianity (how He says you should behave etc. & etc.) has largely been througout history, from those who hate Him, just as it's written it would be.

Can you name some of these people who allegedly hate Jesus? Because I am drawing a complete blank here. I don't know anyone who actually hates Sauron or Voldemort either.

Sure. You may of not read some of the previous posts, but Christianity discussed was contextually THROUGHOUT HISTORY! Those that killed him, for a start were haters of Jesus! So who would be the equivalent to Herod, the pharisees, sadducees and the mob, who were calling for the blood of Jesus, in the world of Sauron or Voldemorts?

Seriously, you'll have to 'expand a little more in thought' ... in scope to the whole of Christianity's historic existence, rather than, as you (plural) usually seem to do, make little arguments, ignoring all other aspects against the Christian faith, like for example: those who are opposed to Christianity as according to Jesus, simply because that way of life conflicts with THEIR own way of life.

To clarify this aspect: In the 'manner of speaking' OR 'generally speaking', in terms of the contextual understanding that's easily derived - like from the same narrative example as: those who hate Gods laws hate God etc..

The main threat to Christianity is the fact that it is a religion based on a made up story which is both unsupported by evidence, and also lacking in wisdom or even common sense in many cases. The main threat to Christianity is a careful reading of the Bible accompanied by critical analyses of the various claims the book makes. You should try it sometime.

So I've heard. Hmm... this "made up story" rhetoric needs to be supported, if you (anyone) want the "Christian faith to finally, once an for all, be put to bed?" Meanwhile for the time being ... the debate will keep going on.

 

[steve_bank]

Learner All you have to go on is several versions of an alleged person's activities by unknown authors with no contemporary corroboration.

We know Mohamed existed, he impacted many. He lefy a physcal yrail.

The story of Jesus doe not show up anywhere. Idf naything he woud have been a minor Jeiwsh charcter in te eyes of the romans, he did nt apesr to register withn them.

It was the those pesky Jews who killed your Messiah....do yiu hate those Jesus hating Jews?

And to state the obvious if the Jesus character did not go through what he did there would be no Christianity today now would there be?

If Jesus was not crucified there would be no resurrection story and no hope for heaven.

If Jesus was son f god who coud bring back te dead, calm the seas, walk on water, turn water into wineand feed a crowd from nothing he coud have certainly avoided being crucified. Conclusion, it was part of the plan. Therefore you have no 0ne to pint a finger at. Acording to the tale he had a moment of doubt and then followed through.


You realy have nothing to go on but a contived blind faith in a fictional story riddled with contradictions and inconsistency.
He did waht hos god-father wanted.

Angry with the Jews who kolled Jesus? Waht about loving yur enemies, the meek shal imheritthe Erath. Inherit the Erath? What about heaven. Oops, another inconsistency.


Do you pratice what Jesus said? Turn the oter cheek. Reecjt fornication and divorce. Love your neighbor.

?????

How long are you going to hang onto the 'eJesus haters kllled Jesus' mantra? You keep repeating it. An bsession? Souds lke you gt satsfaction form repeating it and directing anger.

 

[Learner]

The forum is about Freethought and debate. Not a mutual admiration society. Forum members who have gone on Christian n forums tend to quickly get banned.

Perhaps Danial In The Lions Den is appropriate. If you truly have faith what have you to fear from us? While atheist I do love biblical metaphors.

Not a mutual admiration society? After all this time since joining this forum, "all my wasted attempts and efforts is some delusional fantasy?"
(should have got the hint when It has been mentioned I'm uneducayted with cognitive issues)

Buddy, I'm outa here!!!
: