Rationalizing faith.

[skepticalbip]

... snip ...

Those without any background are helpless.

I'd say it s the same for the pathologcal believers.

It is beyond their knowledge and ability to discriminate between reality and myth.

I knew an Evangelical in Seattle who made periodic trips to a North California faith healing center.

He would go on about how faith healing really works and would list a number of reports, but he never actually witnessed an occurrence. The belief becomes gangrened and impossible to change. It becomes hard wired in the rain.

I'd say it is like trying to get someone to overcome a drug addiction, very hard to do even with experienced professionals.

Faith healing does work for those who only believe they have some condition. For instance, someone who believes they have some malady can actually began to have some symptoms. Then a faith healer "lays on hands" to cure them and they believe they have been cured.

Voodoo curses work on those who believe in voodoo.

 

[southernhybrid]

... snip ...

Those without any background are helpless.

I'd say it s the same for the pathologcal believers.

It is beyond their knowledge and ability to discriminate between reality and myth.

I knew an Evangelical in Seattle who made periodic trips to a North California faith healing center.

He would go on about how faith healing really works and would list a number of reports, but he never actually witnessed an occurrence. The belief becomes gangrened and impossible to change. It becomes hard wired in the rain.

I'd say it is like trying to get someone to overcome a drug addiction, very hard to do even with experienced professionals.

Faith healing does work for those who only believe they have some condition. For instance, someone who believes they have some malady can actually began to have some symptoms. Then a faith healer "lays on hands" to cure them and they believe they have been cured.

Voodoo curses work on those who believe in voodoo.

Placebos work for a good percentage of people when it comes to things like pain and anxiety, so perhaps faith healing is just another placebo that works for those who want it to work.

Come to think about it, perhaps religion is a great placebo for those that need it.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Right, and placebos work 100X better when there's a peer group of folks who claim to benefit from the same placebo.

 

[steve_bank]

I listened to a BBC radio show on the placebo effect. It is experimentally demonstrated.

In one trial half were given rel pain killers, others a placebo.

The placebo did effect pain reduction. In some cases even when told it was a placebo some people needed the placebo for pain reduction.

The show staed with the 19th century Mesmer. He used hypnosis along with some kind of bogus magnetic device. When one person had convulsions and the report spread it became a common experience.

Back in the day I read about an LSD study that was don before it became illegal. In a room half given LSD half a placebo. Peole in the placebo group reported having the same experiences as reported by those taking real LSD.


As to faith healing, the link between mental states and the immune system is known. Religion can lead to less stress.

I like to think it is not what you believe but how you believe it. A Rosary is a Catholic mantra.

 

[southernhybrid]

I listened to a BBC radio show on the placebo effect. It is experimentally demonstrated.

In one trial half were given rel pain killers, others a placebo.

The placebo did effect pain reduction. In some cases even when told it was a placebo some people needed the placebo for pain reduction.

The show staed with the 19th century Mesmer. He used hypnosis along with some kind of bogus magnetic device. When one person had convulsions and the report spread it became a common experience.

Back in the day I read about an LSD study that was don before it became illegal. In a room half given LSD half a placebo. Peole in the placebo group reported having the same experiences as reported by those taking real LSD.


As to faith healing, the link between mental states and the immune system is known. Religion can lead to less stress.

I like to think it is not what you believe but how you believe it. A Rosary is a Catholic mantra.

I read a lengthy article at a medical site a few years ago that mentioned that some people were helped by placebos even when they were told they were being given a placebo. I wish I could say that they worked for me, so I wouldn't have to take as much analgesic medications. Perhaps atheists aren't as receptive to the placebo effect as believers are.

Yes. Religion is often listed as a factor in lowering the risk of some diseases, but considering how many religious folks end up with serious illnesses including dementia, I doubt that religion helps as much as some think. I tend to think that religion helps one establish a supportive social community and that reduces stress. Not having a decent support system is considered a risk factor for disease.

I do think that rosary beads or worry beads as my husband likes to call them do help some people. His late Catholic grandmother was never without her beads. She would sit and pray quite often while manipulating her worry beads. She lived to be 95 despite being obese and having some serious medical conditions. Perhaps the beads did help her cope with life's stress, or it could have been her positive personality that helped her live so long. Stress can certainly be a risk factor when it comes to life expectancy. Negative people often seem more stressed to me, compared to those who are able to maintain a positive outlook.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I listened to a BBC radio show on the placebo effect. It is experimentally demonstrated.

In one trial half were given rel pain killers, others a placebo.

The placebo did effect pain reduction. In some cases even when told it was a placebo some people needed the placebo for pain reduction.

The show staed with the 19th century Mesmer. He used hypnosis along with some kind of bogus magnetic device. When one person had convulsions and the report spread it became a common experience.

Back in the day I read about an LSD study that was don before it became illegal. In a room half given LSD half a placebo. Peole in the placebo group reported having the same experiences as reported by those taking real LSD.


As to faith healing, the link between mental states and the immune system is known. Religion can lead to less stress.

I like to think it is not what you believe but how you believe it. A Rosary is a Catholic mantra.

I read a lengthy article at a medical site a few years ago that mentioned that some people were helped by placebos even when they were told they were being given a placebo. I wish I could say that they worked for me, so I wouldn't have to take as much analgesic medications. Perhaps atheists aren't as receptive to the placebo effect as believers are.

Yes. Religion is often listed as a factor in lowering the risk of some diseases, but considering how many religious folks end up with serious illnesses including dementia, I doubt that religion helps as much as some think. I tend to think that religion helps one establish a supportive social community and that reduces stress. Not having a decent support system is considered a risk factor for disease.

I do think that rosary beads or worry beads as my husband likes to call them do help some people. His late Catholic grandmother was never without her beads. She would sit and pray quite often while manipulating her worry beads. She lived to be 95 despite being obese and having some serious medical conditions. Perhaps the beads did help her cope with life's stress, or it could have been her positive personality that helped her live so long. Stress can certainly be a risk factor when it comes to life expectancy. Negative people often seem more stressed to me, compared to those who are able to maintain a positive outlook.

All other things being equal it's a fact that less stress is good for health. There are definite physical benefits to be had that have nothing to do with religion or rosary beads. Suffice to say that the important thing is lowering stress and the associated physical harm that takes place. Pretending I just won the lottery may have the same stress reducing effect as prayer beads or yoga or exercise.

 

[DBT]

There may be psychological benefits to indulging in fantasy, but there are also consequences if fantasy is taken for reality....

 

[skepticalbip]

... snip ...

I do think that rosary beads or worry beads as my husband likes to call them do help some people. His late Catholic grandmother was never without her beads. She would sit and pray quite often while manipulating her worry beads. She lived to be 95 despite being obese and having some serious medical conditions. Perhaps the beads did help her cope with life's stress, or it could have been her positive personality that helped her live so long. Stress can certainly be a risk factor when it comes to life expectancy. Negative people often seem more stressed to me, compared to those who are able to maintain a positive outlook.

Meditation does help calm the mind and relieve stresses. Saying the rosary is akin to chanting a mantra, an aid to meditation for the Hindus. Many religions include some form meditation be it with the aid of worry beads, rosary, mantra, chant, etc. or just a silent relaxation technique.

 

[southernhybrid]

... snip ...

I do think that rosary beads or worry beads as my husband likes to call them do help some people. His late Catholic grandmother was never without her beads. She would sit and pray quite often while manipulating her worry beads. She lived to be 95 despite being obese and having some serious medical conditions. Perhaps the beads did help her cope with life's stress, or it could have been her positive personality that helped her live so long. Stress can certainly be a risk factor when it comes to life expectancy. Negative people often seem more stressed to me, compared to those who are able to maintain a positive outlook.

Meditation does help calm the mind and relieve stresses. Saying the rosary is akin to chanting a mantra, an aid to meditation for the Hindus. Many religions include some form meditation be it with the aid of worry beads, rosary, mantra, chant, etc. or just a silent relaxation technique.

Yes. That was my point in mentioning the rosary beads. These days, some people use fight spinners to reduce stress. Maybe they are the secular version of prayer beads or meditation.

 

[DBT]

Or sport. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between sport and religion.

 

[Angry Floof]

... snip ...

I do think that rosary beads or worry beads as my husband likes to call them do help some people. His late Catholic grandmother was never without her beads. She would sit and pray quite often while manipulating her worry beads. She lived to be 95 despite being obese and having some serious medical conditions. Perhaps the beads did help her cope with life's stress, or it could have been her positive personality that helped her live so long. Stress can certainly be a risk factor when it comes to life expectancy. Negative people often seem more stressed to me, compared to those who are able to maintain a positive outlook.

Meditation does help calm the mind and relieve stresses. Saying the rosary is akin to chanting a mantra, an aid to meditation for the Hindus. Many religions include some form meditation be it with the aid of worry beads, rosary, mantra, chant, etc. or just a silent relaxation technique.

Yes. That was my point in mentioning the rosary beads. These days, some people use fight spinners to reduce stress. Maybe they are the secular version of prayer beads or meditation.

That's an aspect of religion that I actually like. Mantras, meditations, the bead thing... all of these are cognitive devices that reinforce the ideas associated with them and have other physical and mental benefits.

My objections to religion lie more in the area of the ideas and beliefs, the world view, the mental frameworks that are reinforced, although most of that reinforcement is the social and psychological trappings that hijack animal brain fear and instincts and that are experienced through actions of others, particularly authority figures, and less so these types of small, quiet, personal rituals.

When people ask questions like "wHaT WiLL rEpLaCe rELiGiOn?" I often suggest that they reflect on what they truly value in the human experience and build their own rituals, ones that reinforce not only those values and principles, but self reflection habits, self awareness, awareness of others, compassion for yourself and others, etc. These are real spiritual practices strengthened by connectiing them to the physical senses with beads or vocalizations or whatever.

 

[steve_bank]

Mantras and mediation are not intend to be something you like, at least in Buddhism.

They are part of a system intended to assist in developing self control and not being pulled every which way by sensual gratification and desires.

It is about living a regular life in the noddle of a chaotic hu,an existence with a measure of peace and joy.

If you strip away the silly western preconceptions of the 'mysterious east', it is really just about psychology and mental health.

From wht I read of Tibetan Buddhism rituals were for the masses in their systems. The lamas were the educated ones who understood the meaning.

Going back to the early 1900s Americans glomed onto aspects of eastern mysticism. Rituals from afar were an affectation.

As Joseph Campbell put it, China was closed to westerners. That left India as the place to go for mystical adventure. It was woven into loierature and movies.

Somerset Mall's book Lost Horizons and the movie. An airplane crashes in the Himalayas and passengers find a hidden valley where people live hundreds of years and there are no conflicts or unhappiness.

Mr Moto and Charlie Chan, the idea of the eastern man possessing some secret arcane wisdom. Westerner just don't 'get it'.

The practice of mystical rituals are just another form of escapism.


What ever happened to the Hare Krishnas? I kind of miss the Hare Hare, Hare Krishna chants in the streets.

 

[Angry Floof]

Mantras and mediation are not intend to be something you like, at least in Buddhism.

They are part of a system intended to assist in developing self control

Which is another way of saying what I actually said. When I said "like," it was meant to mean something more like approval and respect, for the reasons I indicated, and not "like" as in a preference for ice cream flavors.

But of course, you would have known that had you read my post past a couple of words that triggered your programming. It's very difficult and frustrating to engage at all with people who insist on not reading your fucking posts and instead just insert their own degrading Rush Limbaugh cartoon interpretations instead.

*snip irrelevant bloviating*

 

[steve_bank]

Oh man, now I feel so bad.

But wait Om Mane Pade Hum. Om Mane Pade Hum. Om Mane Pade Hum.

Th man its not working.

Nam Yeho Rnge Keo
Nam Yeho Rnge Keo
Nam Yeho Rnge Keo
me
Wow that's not working for eiter.

Aaauuummmm auuuummmmm auumm OMMMMMMel

That's it! I fele much better now. It helps me when I get upset by words on an anonymous forum from people I don't know.

I had a book obn Traditional Tibetan sories. A teacher puts students in adjacent huts. He gives one the traditional mantra and the other one he makes up on the spot.

He comes back months later and the one practicing the traditional mantra had nothing, the other found serenity.

The moral, it is not what you believe but how you believe it.

 

[Angry Floof]

Oh man, now I feel so bad.

But wait Om Mane Pade Hum. Om Mane Pade Hum. Om Mane Pade Hum.

Th man its not working.

Nam Yeho Rnge Keo
Nam Yeho Rnge Keo
Nam Yeho Rnge Keo
me
Wow that's not working for eiter.

Aaauuummmm auuuummmmm auumm OMMMMMMel

That's it! I fele much better now. It helps me when I get upset by words on an anonymous forum from people I don't know.

I had a book obn Traditional Tibetan sories. A teacher puts students in adjacent huts. He gives one the traditional mantra and the other one he makes up on the spot.

He comes back months later and the one practicing the traditional mantra had nothing, the other found serenity.

The moral, it is not what you believe but how you believe it.

I'm going to assume you're not talking to me because none of this makes sense in regard to my comments.

 

[DBT]

Whatever floats one's boat, I guess. As long as it doesn't have consequences....which is unavoidable to some degree because faith is a form of self deception. We fool ourselves into feeling better about ourselves.

 

[Learner]

You may be leaving, but...
1) I don't believe a word of the Christian narrative, and
2) I still don't "hate" Jesus.
You should at least examine that trope a bit more.

Still?

How about examining the mistake which you (plural) strangely seem to be trying to make; some sort of argument that's not there. WHY do YOU (plural) think you feel the need to defend "still" against some sort of "accusation" that hasn't been made?

I was only referring generally to those who WOULD be against Jesus or Christianity and all the associtations under a wide religion, as it may seem to represent to those against the narrative.

If it doesn't apply to you, don't fuss over it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Those folks who don't think Santa is real, are they against Santa? Would anyone want to be judged by a jury who thinks Santa and magic are real?

Does anyone want to be judged by someone who sincerely holds that there are invisible, magical people living in the sky with superpowers? Do I want to be judged by another person who thinks there is a magic ghost living inside me that is going to be magically assumed into the presence of another magical ghost with superpowers, but only after I'm dead?

That's crazy shit and those are serious questions that rational people have on their minds.

 

[DBT]

It seems the more a lie, falsehood or error is repeated and the wider it is propagated, the greater the legitimacy it appears to acquire. Where would Popes, priests, ideologues and Despotic Rulers be without it......

 

[Learner]

Those folks who don't think Santa is real, are they against Santa? Would anyone want to be judged by a jury who thinks Santa and magic are real?

You'll have to ask the believer who believes in santa for that answer, maybe one will drop in and join us one of these days. I guess it could be, if that's how he or she sees it, depending on the perspective of that particular believer.

Does anyone want to be judged by someone who sincerely holds that there are invisible, magical people living in the sky with superpowers?

Not quite sure of the context here? So you mean someone who believes in santa? IF so, whether anyone wants to be judged or not (perhaps some may do, and some may not...), he or she is a santa believer anyway, even if they don't like santa or Xmas, like old Grinchy.

Do I want to be judged by another person who thinks there is a magic ghost living inside me that is going to be magically assumed into the presence of another magical ghost with superpowers, but only after I'm dead?

That's crazy shit and those are serious questions that rational people have on their minds.

Judged by another person...? Obviously not if you ain't a santa believer.