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Real end goal of George Floyd "protests" ...

We should likewise be able to expect police to do their jobs and investigate thefts and home break ins--without killing anyone.
Without killing anyone is too much to ask for. Vast majority of police shootings are justified.
What should police do if attacked by a home invader for example? Not defend themselves?



Almost all US space shuttle missions didn’t end in tragedies.

And is the only bar police going to be unwarranted killing? Unwarranted assault is fine? Or uneven policing of crime is okay?
 
We should likewise be able to expect police to do their jobs and investigate thefts and home break ins--without killing anyone.
Without killing anyone is too much to ask for. Vast majority of police shootings are justified.
What should police do if attacked by a home invader for example? Not defend themselves?

Maybe you should ask yourself what they do in places where there's a lot less of it, like say, Japan or England.
 
I disagree a bit.

People have a right to be safe in their own homes and in public places, places of business, entertainment venues, on streets and roads, etc. In all places. They also have a right to expect that no one will steal their stuff.

Although I wasn't talking government interfaces services in general I take you point of fire fighters and government responsibility to keep one and her things safe.

It's just that currently police focus is on maintaining public order. Current structure its more important that a policeman has proper weapons than it is a policemen has critical social information and tools. It should be on acting to bring everybody into a peaceful society. Its the difference between controlling and facilitating, on weapons rather than communication and information.

If society is fucked up enough that some steal rather than contribute it should not be the duty of society to control. Rather society needs to bring those left out into the system. Society needs to adjust so those left out are included. Certainly one isn't going to argue that bad acting is a matter of race or color. Obviously the system is rigged and it needs be adjusted to appear, first less rigged, then actually equalitarian.

If you have the urge to put your knee on someone, put it on your child as your old testament God would have you do. Then you might realize it is the system not the other guy.

I think that drug abuse/dependency has greatly contributed to the perceived need and justification fixation of the over militarization of many police departments.

I see ways that legalization of drugs would reduce some of the violence and most of the property crime. But alcohol is legal and we see many crimes, particularly domestic violence, assaults, DUIs and some homicides directly related to alcohol abuse. Recreational drug use is even more associated with all of those except DUIs. We need to address the underlying reasons for these addictions.

A huge portion is addressing mental illness in a much more comprehensive and effective way. And we also need to do a much better job of addressing the treatment and management of acute and chronic pain, often associated with injuries or chronic conditions such as arthritis.

An enormous part of this is also addressing underlying issues of poverty and unemployment.

These are all issues that I think a lot of people associate with urban areas and persons of color. But these same issues are very prominent in rural areas, and among white peoples.

And I think we also need to address why societies seem to have a need to create and perpetuate an underclass—and to maintain and revere an upper echelon that is above the law—and largely makes the law.
 
The militarization of police began when the laws changed to allow police departments to profit from the assets seized. Since the largest amounts were in drug raids, that’s naturally where the now profit-oriented forces turned their attention. The more money/cars/homes seized, the more money could be allocated to equipment, which had to be justified.
 
We should likewise be able to expect police to do their jobs and investigate thefts and home break ins--without killing anyone.
Without killing anyone is too much to ask for. Vast majority of police shootings are justified.
What should police do if attacked by a home invader for example? Not defend themselves?

Maybe you should ask yourself what they do in places where there's a lot less of it, like say, Japan or England.
And, of course, what is "justified" in the eyes of knee jerk law and order types or in the eyes of the law may defer from what is "justified" by decent human beings.
 
We should likewise be able to expect police to do their jobs and investigate thefts and home break ins--without killing anyone.
Without killing anyone is too much to ask for. Vast majority of police shootings are justified.
What should police do if attacked by a home invader for example? Not defend themselves?

Other countries manage to do much better than the US:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
 
Mental health issues require a medical, not a police, response.

I know the idea of providing healthcare to people is anathema to America, but when you shift from saying "This guy's illness is causing him to endanger himself and others, so we must hospitalise him and give him the care he needs", to saying "This guy's illness is causing him to endanger himself and others, so we must jail him and give them the protection they demand", your society is in some deep shit.

The questions of what a police force is; how it should interact with the society of which it should be a part; and how much force it is justified to employ, were comprehensively addressed by the founder of modern policing, Sir Robert Peel. His 'Peelian principles' remain entirely relevant today - and it is largely the failure of US police forces to adhere to those principles that has gotten them into the mess in which they now find themselves.

1) To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.

2) To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

3) To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.

4) To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.

5) To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.

6) To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.

7) To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

8) To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary, of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.

9) To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

A police department that has abandoned these principles is not fit for purpose, and should be disbanded and replaced with one which embodies them as its primary mission.
 
Police is there to enforce the law. It is the job of lawmakers to make laws that are just and reasonable, so police do not waste their time busting people smoking weed or engaging in sex work.


Protection of private property is one of the hallmarks of civilization.
If we allow people to just take what is not theirs, for example from people's garages (as Lisa Bender wants people in Minneapolis to get used to), you no longer have a civilized society.

Not having thugs on the public's payroll (and thus effectively in taxpayers' name) brutalize unarmed people who pose no threat to anyone is another hallmark of civilisation. If a temporary spike in garage break-ins during the transition period is the cost of replacing the current publicly paid armed gangs calling themselves "police" with a force that actually helps and protects the public that pays its wages, that really is a bargain, even from a purely utilitarian perspective.

Morally, when someone on your pay (as a taxpayer) commits crimes and you let them get away with it in full knowledge of what they did, it's as if you had personally committed those crimes. That's much worse than an individual outlaw committing a crime. You may never be able to reduce the number of outlaws to zero, but what you can do (or try) is reduce the number of people who commit crimes on duty, being paid by your tax dollars, without suffering consequences, to zero.
 
To say that radical police reform would necessarily or even likely involve more subsequent lawlessness, even temporarily, is basically just using a non-sequitur, imo.

Handled carefully, the outcome could be all upside, for everyone.
 
We should likewise be able to expect police to do their jobs and investigate thefts and home break ins--without killing anyone.
Without killing anyone is too much to ask for. Vast majority of police shootings are justified.
What should police do if attacked by a home invader for example? Not defend themselves?

Other countries manage to do much better than the US:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

Here are some graphics from the link above:

england vs us.jpeg

iceland vs ca.jpeg

germany vs us.jpeg

australia vs us.jpeg

vs ca.jpeg
 
Hopefully we will dismantle "qualified immunity".

From the House:

SEC. 4. REMOVAL OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY. Section 1979 of the Revised Statutes (42 U.S.C. 41983) is amended by adding at the end the following: ‘‘It shall not be a defense or immunity to any action brought under this section that the defendant was acting in good faith, or that the defendant believed, reasonably or otherwise, that his or her conduct was lawful at the time when it was committed. Nor shall it be a defense or immunity that the rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution or laws were not clearly established at the time of their deprivation by the defendant, or that the state of the law was otherwise such that the defendant could not reasonably have been expected to know whether his or her conduct was lawful.’’.

Amash, Pressley introduce bipartisan legislation to end qualified immunity.

And on the Senate side:

Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the Senate— (1) recognizes and acknowledges the legal and racial inequities inherent in the judicial doctrine of qualified immunity as that doctrine is applied to law enforcement officers; (2) recognizes and acknowledges that the doctrine of qualified immunity rests on a mistaken judicial interpretation of a statute enacted by Congress; and (3) recognizes and acknowledges that, to correct that mistaken judicial interpretation, Congress should amend section 1979 of the Revised Statutes (42 U.S.C. 1983) to eliminate the qualified immunity defense for law enforcement officers as that defense exists as of June 1, 2020.

Harris, Markey, Booker Introduce Senate Resolution to Abolish Qualified Immunity for Law Enforcement, Hold Officers Accountable for Police Brutality.
 
And is the only bar police going to be unwarranted killing? Unwarranted assault is fine? Or uneven policing of crime is okay?

Qualified immunity plus a strong and protective union allows them to operate with impunity.

View attachment 28094
No, what allows the police to operate with almost virtual impunity is us. We, the people, allow the laws and promote the attitudes that the police can do no wrong. Hell, look at these type of threads and the fucking ridiculous excuses some posters make or their viciousness in blaming the victim. There are plenty of people who support the police like that when they vote, contact their representatives or serve on juries.
 
Morally, when someone on your pay (as a taxpayer) commits crimes and you let them get away with it in full knowledge of what they did, it's as if you had personally committed those crimes.
Show your work.

For a taxpayer/voter to "let them get away with it" means for her to fail to devote 100% of the half-bit-per-year communication bandwidth she is allotted for communicating her directions to her employees to making sure the criminal public servants are punished for their crimes. There are a hundred other varieties of misgovernment going on that the voter would have to choose to let slide, in order to maximally prioritize not letting the employees get away with it. Maybe if we had direct democracy, or a representative system that didn't limit voters to a choice among bad options, then it would be as if she had personally committed those crimes. Back in the real world, not so much.

That's much worse than an individual outlaw committing a crime.
Much worse for whom? It's not much worse for a person murdered by a cop than it is for a person murdered by an individual outlaw. On the other hand, it is much worse for a taxpayer/voter who uses self-congratulation as a basis for social policy. This widespread feeling that the most important thing is to avoid getting one's own hands dirty appears to be the main reason public policy de facto treats an identifiable person as overwhelmingly more valuable than a statistical person.

You may never be able to reduce the number of outlaws to zero, but what you can do (or try) is reduce the number of people who commit crimes on duty, being paid by your tax dollars, without suffering consequences, to zero.
But there are only two ways to reduce the number of people who commit crimes on duty being paid by your tax dollars without suffering consequences to zero. (1) Unroll the last six hundred years of centralization of government, career-transition all the people being paid by your tax dollars to perform public duties, and return you to serfdom under whichever local lord can make you work his lands, or (2) abolish innocent-until-proven-guilty, right-to-counsel, right-to-remain-silent, search-warrants, and trial-by-jury, whenever the person suspected of crimes is a public servant. Which of those options should a taxpayer try to bring about, in order for it not to be morally as if she had personally committed those crimes?
 
The "real end goal" depends 100% on whose end goal you're talking about.

The end goal of FOX News for instance, is to not have to talk about the hundreds or thousands of Americans still dying every day as a direct result of Trump's criminal dereliction of duty. That purpose alone is sufficient reason to deploy agitators, arsonists and window breakers. FOX News is happily talking about cities in flames, the breakdown of the rule of law, people dying in the streets from protester violence. More than 6000 Americans have died of the Trump Virus in the last week.

Can you imagine if so many as 6 cops died in these artificially enhanced "riots"?
 
Hopefully we will dismantle "qualified immunity".
Why? It is the job of police to confront suspects, many of them violent and dangerous.

If anything, we need to make it impossible for families and their shysters to collect millions for shooting that have been deemed justified.
 
Almost all US space shuttle missions didn’t end in tragedies.
I do not quite see the point of that analogy. Sorry.

And is the only bar police going to be unwarranted killing?
Relative to the issue of police killings, yes.

Unwarranted assault is fine? Or uneven policing of crime is okay?
Of course not! All police misconduct should be dealt with.

By the way, unwarranted assault is redundant. If it's warranted use of force, it's not assault.
 
Hopefully we will dismantle "qualified immunity".
Why? It is the job of police to confront suspects, many of them violent and dangerous.

If anything, we need to make it impossible for families and their shysters to collect millions for shooting that have been deemed justified.

And even when someone is violent and dangerous, there is a responsibility of the ethical to accept the inherent value of human life, even if someone else does not.

If anything, we need to make a police force and a model for policing which abhors violence, and uses tools to make violence against officers both absolutely unnecessary and absolutely counterproductive. We have the tools in a modern society to make this a reality.
 
Maybe you should ask yourself what they do in places where there's a lot less of it, like say, Japan or England.
It's not a mystery: a lot fewer guns in the hands of the people, and a much lower homicide rates, esp. for Japan.
 
Hopefully we will dismantle "qualified immunity".
Why? It is the job of police to confront suspects, many of them violent and dangerous.

If anything, we need to make it impossible for families and their shysters to collect millions for shooting that have been deemed justified.

Lawfare has an article up on it you might want to check out. Hell, even Clarence Thomas has spoken out saying they might want to reconsider. Only the most egregious of offenses by law enforcement stand a chance of prosecution. It is not enough to cite precedent, prosecution must cite a case that is particularly the same making it very difficult to establish such case law in the first place. It’s been called a Catch 22.
It is a big part of what all this is about that gets little attention in the public sphere.
 
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