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Republicans, I hope you like rape.

The "Give them porn or they'll rape you" hypothesis would probably fail in the same way the "Attractive young women in short skirts cause rape" hypothesis collapses when actual rape victims are considered. It's found the majority were not young, wearing a short skirt, not attractive in a conventional sense.
The last phrase is a bit harsh
Harsh in what way?
Women are told, “if you try to look attractive, and men harm you, then it’s your own fault because you were asking for it.” We know that; we are told this all the time. Don’t dress up to go out clubbing, because it’s an invitation. Don’t dress up for one man, because all men think it’s a signal for all of them. But the data shows that women who are not dressed up, not in makeup and not conventionally pretty are also raped.

So it’s a lie to blame women who are raped, which itself emboldens rapists even more. But the data shows that the blame is a lie. Women get raped because they are women, which makes them prey of men. (Some men are also prey, and sometimes by men who are not homosexual, thereby further proving that it is NOT about sexual pleasure)
If I, as a male, called any woman "not attractive in a conventional sense" I would immediately be classed as misogynistic, uncaring, hateful etc. etc. So I was surprised to see Bronzeage use the phrase. It is a harsh phrase.

Everything else you mention is sadly true.
I did not see it as misogynistic at all. He's right. IMO, rapists rape because of their own rage and because of the sense of power it gives them. Also, a strong sense of entitlement. The last applies most strongly to the casual date rapist, the person who thinks that they get what they want as long as they bought dinner or movie tickets or their victim let them kiss them or they've had sex with the victim before or they 'know' the victim is not a virgin, etc. Some assume that consenting to dinner or a movie is consent to whatever the person who paid for dinner wants.

Victims are raped regardless of their age, their race, their level of physical attractiveness, what they are or are not wearing. All that is required is opportunity and access.
I've had people think that flirting over text meant an entitlement to nudes.

But instead of teaching consent culture in sex ed, they teach abstinence, as if ignorance ever solves anything.
The idea of consent culture is relatively new. Generally speaking, school systems are very slow to adopt changes. Of course there are exceptions. But what seems to be universally true is that changes to curriculum that involves sex are the most difficult to change. A lot of people get nervous about the idea of kids being taught that they have choices to make about their own bodies, because those choices might not be what the parent wants.

As a parent, it can be truly scary to think that your child might make seriously bad, life changing decisions that they are too young to be able to deal with. Worse, that someone else will make those decisions for them.

Some parents believe that keeping some information, usually about sex but also about money, will help keep their kids safe. Some kids are also extremely adverse to their parents talking with them about sex, abd birth control. That includes families that are generally very open about talking about health and bodies and touch. I am convinced that some of this has to do with heritable personality traits. This does not mean that these difficult discussions do not need to happen. They do.

And of course, the idea of consent can be pretty threatening to those who do it believe that women and children or whoever is the object of their desire has real control over their own body.
Yeah, we've proven as a society time and again that ignorance about sex and money make people LESS safe regarding those topics.

The two sources of the vast majority of unnecessary misery on those subjects are a lack of information or BAD information, both of which are exacerbated by educational failures.

Because BAD information is going to spread because "dumb children", and the only remedy to that is good information, the only choice is "bad information" or "good information" anyway. "No information" is simply not an option.

Of course this will, as you point out, create more misery, specifically for those who want to be able to escape consequences through the existence of bad, absent, or incomplete information... but seriously (don't) fuck those guys!
 

They're planning to ban porn. Legalizing porn cut the rape rate by about 85%. If it was actually removed there's no reason to think that wouldn't be reversed.
Sources?

In any case, this seems like the theory of eminent medieval theologians Augustine and Thomas Aquinas that prostitution is necessary for society like sewers for a palace, as an outlet for lecherous men.

Prostitution a necessary evil ? : r/TraditionalCatholics
"What can be called more sordid, more void of modesty, more full of shame than prostitutes, brothels and every other evil of this kind? Yet remove prostitutes from human affairs, and you will pollute all things with lust; set them among honest matrons, and you will dishonour all things with disgrace and turpitude", Saint Augustine, De Ordine II.4

"Prostitution is like the filth in the sea, or a sewer in the palace. Take away the sewer, and you will fill the palace with pollution; and likewise with the filth (in the sea). Take away prostitutes from the world, and you will fill it with sodomy". Saint Thomas Aquinas in Opuscula XVI (IV in 1875 Paris ed.)
 
But the effect applies across many countries. And it predates DNA in places like the US.
Seriously? The effect applies in countries without Internet access?
I don't know of one.

DNA identification has been improving for a long time. As have the hardening attitudes towards coercive sex. I remember when "Boys will be boys" was all too common and "look at what she was wearing" was a defense.
Kiss that shit goodbye.
Tom
The rape rate dropped with the availability of porn. Internet porn is simply a subclass of porn, although these days it dominates. And in the US that was long before a rapist could be identified by DNA. It was blood group only.
 
Yeah, scientific tests would be in order for sure before embarking on something like that. If the child porn given during the tests is AI, the child does not exist in real life. So, no harm in that respect regarding ethics. I assume the test subject (a volunteer) would be OK with it.
You would still need a control group which would have to involve real children.
Why? Your control group simply isn't given access to the AI porn, the endpoint is arrests for sexual offenses against children.
So it would still put children at risk.
The control group is the status quo. You have some magical means of protecting them?
 
Yeah, scientific tests would be in order for sure before embarking on something like that. If the child porn given during the tests is AI, the child does not exist in real life. So, no harm in that respect regarding ethics. I assume the test subject (a volunteer) would be OK with it.
You would still need a control group which would have to involve real children.
Why? Your control group simply isn't given access to the AI porn, the endpoint is arrests for sexual offenses against children.
So it would still put children at risk.
An alternative experiement would be that you could interview them during a time span both with and without the child porn, and check to see if their desires toward real children had waned when access to the AI porn was allowed.
I doubt you could get an accurate measure this way. It's possible to blind a binary question but this is going to be a range. Realistically, it would have to be access to AI porn vs status quo, endpoint is conviction of a sex crime against a child. You test your intervention against the best current practice.
 
we should have class time dedicated to informing people how to use the internet safely, what the dangers are, as well as a discussion about how porn is illusory/inaccurate/misleading, and how any adult trying to distribute it to the likes of them has ulterior motives.
I would be surprised if they didn't already. I'm sure every school has computer courses nowadays, and covers all of that. (well maybe not in Alabama)
because children don't belong on the internet.
I refute that with one word.
Wikipedia.
Every child needs unlimited access to Wikipedia. The Wild Wild Web is not just porn. It is also a great educator. And a necessary tool. And childhood is when they learn what they need for adulthood.
When I was a kid a set of encyclopedias was considered a must for parents who could afford it. Today a bigger, better encyclopedia is available FREE online.
Maybe you mean children don't belong on Google.
 
we should have class time dedicated to informing people how to use the internet safely, what the dangers are, as well as a discussion about how porn is illusory/inaccurate/misleading, and how any adult trying to distribute it to the likes of them has ulterior motives.
I would be surprised if they didn't already. I'm sure every school has computer courses nowadays, and covers all of that. (well maybe not in Alabama)
because children don't belong on the internet.
I refute that with one word.
Wikipedia.
Every child needs unlimited access to Wikipedia. The Wild Wild Web is not just porn. It is also a great educator. And a necessary tool. And childhood is when they learn what they need for adulthood.
When I was a kid a set of encyclopedias was considered a must for parents who could afford it. Today a bigger, better encyclopedia is available FREE online.
Maybe you mean children don't belong on Google.
Wikipedia can wait. Children don't belong on the internet. If we really want to make a portal to Wikipedia for child access, it can be a specially restricted system or under parental supervision.

Nobody is saying a house must be without a computer. What I would say is that this computer needs controlled access.

You don't put your hustlers on the shelf in the family library or your Debbie Does Dallas in the family movie pile, and if you do, that makes you a bad parent. The same goes for Wikipedia. If you can't find a way to shelve it without also shelving PornHub next to it for their viewing pleasure, that's on you.
 
In one scenario, a gay 24 year old who "looks 8*" decides to participate in a porno. It's school themed and he puts on a school uniform his boyfriend had from when he was young and they shoot a scene with desks in a school setting, culminating in a very racy ruler-spanking scene with moaning and all.
While I have never known anyone who was 24 and looks 8 I have known more than one person who appeared to be tween but were of legal age. It's certainly possible to appear underage while not actually being so.

Now, in the second... Exactly as the first except everything is generated by AI, and let's just say the AI model of the smaller-bodied participant is rather similar to the small-bodied 24 year old.

A court case has already happened pertaining to the rights of adults to participate in pornographic films that depict such scenes, to which the defense was the actress of a film testifying that she was of age, vindicating people accused of having illegal pornography.

If you would argue that a 24 year old has no legal right as any of their peers to appear in a porno that most any other 24 year old would be allowed to participate in, you're wrong. Filming a film becomes wrong because of the involvement of non-consenting parties.

So, I would argue that there is NO legal basis to suddenly declare the second film, the film that involved ZERO human actors, illegal.
Which is where I stand. For something to be a crime I believe there must be a victim (or a statistical victim--something which poses an undue risk even if nobody actually gets hurt. DUI would be a prime example.) Without a victim it's merely yuck.

Second, I've at least got some experience observing various people who were into some gross porn (drawn/digital art). There are two pretty clearly different groups: the group that likes gross porn because they really wish they could "get away with something" and mourn the fact they won't get an opportunity, and the group who doesn't want to get away with anything.
Simple test: Some people like porn of things that they clearly could not do.
I would say in most of these cases, the AI has nothing to do with the actual crime: training on CSAM requires CSAM thus CSAM charges are appropriate; making deep-fake porn of a non-consenting person is wrong no matter who the person is, and especially so if they are a kid; distributing ANY kind of porn to minors is grooming and distributing porn to a minor; the last one is troubling because AFAIK that particular charge begins and ends with a victimless thought crime ("obscenity").
One objection here--"porn" gets defined too widely. Is imagery that focuses on the genitals automatically porn? Or is it perfectly reasonable educational material showing the range of normal variation of human genitalia?
 
I really wonder if all those people who 50-60 years ago pushed for the liberalisation of porn laws saying it does no harm to anyone else, how could it hurt others etc. ever look back and realise how stupid they were?
What do you think is the harm?
Earlier in the thread you will talking to theBeave about AI images and ethics.
The desensitisation that occurs amongst those who view porn i.e. what was acceptable a few years ago is not longer enough.
The fact that is just gets worse and worse i.e. child porn, strangulation scenes etc.
Gives too many men an unrealistic view on sex, performance and consent etc. Dealing with the real messy world does not meet the world of porn.
Bandwidth wasted
Makes a few very depraved individuals very rich.
We keep hearing this bit about it getting worse and worse but it seems very much like sensationalism.

And, yes, porn gives a very unrealistic view of sex. Hollywood gives a very unrealistic view of life. The correct counter is not to ban the porn, but to also present a more realistic view of sex.
 
Why do you think they would be a pedo or a groomer? Sounds like they just had fun with the blackmail aspect.
Who is more naive or vulnerable than tweens or teens? I’m sure it happens to boys as well but lots of young girls—you’d be surprised and horrified to know how young—are convinced by some boy or another to send them pix that they would not want their parents to know about. And of course the photos get shared around school, making life hell for the unfortunate girl ( or maybe boy). And of course much, much worse if the ‘boy’ wasn’t someone they knew but some rando who likes kiddie porn.
And why do you think that going after internet porn would have the slightest effect on this sort of thing?
 
My concerns are that creating (fake) kiddie porn would increase the demand for such content. As with illicit drugs, there are always those who will want or ‘need’ to push the envelope and get the ‘really forbidden’ stuff that might end up involving actual minors. Ultimately , users could believe or claim to believe that the content they are viewing is just AI and not real —even if they were fairly certain it was a real child being used.
Have the AIs sign their images. Anything unsigned is presumed to be real.

Does viewing child porn increase the desire for more child porn? Inspire individuals to go beyond the boundaries of online AI generated fantasy and take their desires into real life? I honestly do not know —so please forgive me if I’m making ignorant assumptions. I do know that porn has inspired an entire generation or two to believe that female pubic hair is bad and must be eliminated in order to be appealing to males. And has also done a lot to convince males and females that women don’t really like sex and that sex hurts for women which is too bad but whatchagonnado? Or that things that cause pain ( for the female) are just her problem if she doesn’t like it. Sadly, kids who are too young to know better do engage in sexual activities because they think they are supposed to. I’m certain that this can also be applied to boys, but I’m more familiar with the consequences for girls.
What we do know is that there is a very strong inverse correlation between availability of porn and rape. That's what I started this thread about. It probably applies to kiddie porn also but I don't believe we have the data on that to know. I was talking about the Republican war on porn--if successful why would it not reverse the effects we saw with legalizing it?
 
In one scenario, a gay 24 year old who "looks 8*" decides to participate in a porno. It's school themed and he puts on a school uniform his boyfriend had from when he was young and they shoot a scene with desks in a school setting, culminating in a very racy ruler-spanking scene with moaning and all.
While I have never known anyone who was 24 and looks 8 I have known more than one person who appeared to be tween but were of legal age. It's certainly possible to appear underage while not actually being so.
Yeah... To be fair the only guy I know on that situation only looks 8 from the ears back. Their face clearly says "20's", though that's nothing that can't be cleared up with makeup or in post.

Now, in the second... Exactly as the first except everything is generated by AI, and let's just say the AI model of the smaller-bodied participant is rather similar to the small-bodied 24 year old.

A court case has already happened pertaining to the rights of adults to participate in pornographic films that depict such scenes, to which the defense was the actress of a film testifying that she was of age, vindicating people accused of having illegal pornography.

If you would argue that a 24 year old has no legal right as any of their peers to appear in a porno that most any other 24 year old would be allowed to participate in, you're wrong. Filming a film becomes wrong because of the involvement of non-consenting parties.

So, I would argue that there is NO legal basis to suddenly declare the second film, the film that involved ZERO human actors, illegal.
Which is where I stand. For something to be a crime I believe there must be a victim (or a statistical victim--something which poses an undue risk even if nobody actually gets hurt. DUI would be a prime example.) Without a victim it's merely yuck.
Yeah, the liability for externalities is a great reason to limit behavior.

This "statistical victim" is an arguable reason to limit "deep fakes" even of "people who do not exist" because statistically speaking, a doppelganger for this character may actually exist.

This would imply the best practice would be to use the identities of real actors to make consensual deep fakes that explicitly involve a real, known, named person; at that point while it "resembles" many doppelgangers (perhaps), it is explicitly known to be "this other person".

After all, there's no path for Camilla Henderson who looks just like Pamela Anderson to sue Pamela for making "deep fake" porn of her.

It would also help keep human involvement and licensing in the porn industry.

Second, I've at least got some experience observing various people who were into some gross porn (drawn/digital art). There are two pretty clearly different groups: the group that likes gross porn because they really wish they could "get away with something" and mourn the fact they won't get an opportunity, and the group who doesn't want to get away with anything.
Simple test: Some people like porn of things that they clearly could not do.
I would say in most of these cases, the AI has nothing to do with the actual crime: training on CSAM requires CSAM thus CSAM charges are appropriate; making deep-fake porn of a non-consenting person is wrong no matter who the person is, and especially so if they are a kid; distributing ANY kind of porn to minors is grooming and distributing porn to a minor; the last one is troubling because AFAIK that particular charge begins and ends with a victimless thought crime ("obscenity").
One objection here--"porn" gets defined too widely. Is imagery that focuses on the genitals automatically porn? Or is it perfectly reasonable educational material showing the range of normal variation of human genitalia?
Properly contextualized and presented in a sex education setting, various forms of pornography should be a topic of note. There should be some community-reviewed materials that meet a specific set of criterion, and are used for that purpose regardless of whether they are considered "pornographic" in terms of being sufficiently descriptive or graphic so as to "titillate". I would say the easiest way to guarantee that doesn't happen is to get the animators of Big Mouth to draw it (hopefully with older looking subjects).

I would also love to see similar quality discussions about porn and what happens when young people take and distribute pictures of themselves. I'm actually pretty sure Big Mouth already has an episode about that? It's too bad that the show is far too liberal and honest to ever be accepted by the Koncerned Karen Krowd.
 
Why do you think they would be a pedo or a groomer? Sounds like they just had fun with the blackmail aspect.
Who is more naive or vulnerable than tweens or teens? I’m sure it happens to boys as well but lots of young girls—you’d be surprised and horrified to know how young—are convinced by some boy or another to send them pix that they would not want their parents to know about. And of course the photos get shared around school, making life hell for the unfortunate girl ( or maybe boy). And of course much, much worse if the ‘boy’ wasn’t someone they knew but some rando who likes kiddie porn.
And why do you think that going after internet porn would have the slightest effect on this sort of thing?
I don't believe I suggested 'going after internet porn.' However, there is evidence that suggests that problematic internet porn--porn involving coercion, etc. does in fact, influence attitudes about sex among adolescents, especially males:


Positive associations were found between problematic IP viewing, stereotypical gendered attitudes, IP-congruent beliefs (including beliefs that endorse sexual coercion), and psychological vulnerability factors such as higher levels of sexual impulsivity, depression, and the tendency to dissociate. Higher stereotypical gendered beliefs, higher IP-congruent sexual beliefs, and higher sexual impulsivity all uniquely contributed to the prediction of problematic IP viewing. Based on these findings, it appears probable that some young adults’ sexual attitudes and beliefs may be, to some extent, associated with their exposure to the violent, coercive, and degrading acts by men against women often found in IP. Broader implications for aggression and violence against women are discussed. (PsycInfo Database Record (c) 2023 APA, all rights reserved)

I admit that I am too cheap to shell out to read the full article.
 
I do know and understand how women and children were treated in the past. That is why I want it to stop. Freely allowing porn and more types of it will not be the way to stop such treatment of women and children.
And you think they weren't treated badly in the past?! What we are seeing now is they aren't putting up with it anymore.
 
However, there is evidence that suggests that problematic internet porn--porn involving coercion, etc. does in fact, influence attitudes about sex among adolescents, especially males
And YouTube videos about SlenderMan do too. People are gullible and unprepared to interpret suspect information as suspect at that age, instead taking it at face value. This is more an argument for effective education at learning not to take anything on the internet at face value, for helping people learn how to not trust porn, not for eliminating the porn... Or in some cases to keep them from accessing it through ISP restrictions as I have suggested until that education can be attained(the ISP just issues an IP from an anonymous IP pool that marks the account as a minor; it is not burdensome to simply expect adult websites to reject connections from minor IP addresses).
 
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Violent and/or degrading pornography seems to have a measurable affect on the behavior of teenagers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751001/
The bias is obvious.

paper said:
A recent study found that over half (51%) of a racially diverse sample of adolescents had ever been asked to view pornography with a dating or sexual partner and 44% had ever been asked to act out something their partner viewed in pornography

And this is supposed to be a cause for concern? Just because something was done in a porn scene doesn't automatically make it wrong. They go on to try to justify this with:
paper said:
his is concerning given that some studies suggest that a large portion of pornography is aggressive
and later
paper said:
some research has found that the presence of aggressive pornography in particular is not increasing

Their problem seems to be with:
paper said:
and research has demonstrated that adolescents who intentionally viewed violent pornography were almost six times more likely to report sexually aggressive behavior than those who had not

Cart, horse. Why in the world should we think this isn't a case of people viewing what they like? And note "intentional"--in other words, stumbling on it doesn't have an effect. That even more suggests that it doesn't cause the issue.
 
Most people are mostly good most of the time, even the people who look at porn most people would consider to be "gross".

By going after people who post porn openly, you only drive it into the domain of those who would be less serious about doing it ethically.
Yup. As normal, legal, regulated yuck markets are better than illegal, unregulated markets.

Yeah, like... people on the internet be expected to be over a certain age and warned about exactly that explicitly in a classroom like Driver's Education before we say as a society "ok, internet time". Everyone should have their own ISP account, and they should be expected to keep it secure from kids.
I agree with the education aspect. I don't agree with keeping them off--as with many things a gradual approach is better than a cliff.

The thing about kids getting onto the internet is that they need to be warned first about the dangers and pitfalls. It should be things like "genital pics on the internet are forever", "genital pics will end up on the Internet," and "the consequences of genital pics on the internet are cruel and insidious and often slow to manifest."

I would rather the internet itself be a child-free environment. I would rather VPNs check if the ISP account connecting to them is owned by a minor, and to block the IPs of VPNs which don't require an adult verified account from the entire country.

It should be entirely possible for an adult to access and use absolute anonymization services.

It should be extremely difficult for a child to access and use anonymization services services (or if they are able to, they should be "minor-marked" the same way a con badge is at a convention with adult areas.
The problem isn't the content, it's the interactivity. That's where kids can be harmed. And I still believe education is a better answer than banning.
 

They're planning to ban porn. Legalizing porn cut the rape rate by about 85%. If it was actually removed there's no reason to think that wouldn't be reversed.
I think this is a case of causation vs correlation.
Why? The same general thing has been found across many countries. Availability of sexual media correlates with a big drop in rapes.

We have three possible cases:

1) Porn lower rape.
2) Rape declines for unrelated reasons, causing availability of porn. Huh, this one makes no sense.
3) Something else causes both increased access to porn and lower rates of rape. What?!
It would help your hypothesis if you could specify the mechanism that connects rape and porn.
Displacement. Porn gets them off rather than going on to harm someone. We have a very clear correlation, the burden should be on those who claim it's not related.
 
Not really. "Porn gives them what they want so they don't go out making bad decisions full of the horny" does a pretty good job of explaining the phenomena.
That is a hypothesis. I don't believe it will stand up to either an examination of rape, or porn, as it depends upon confirming the primary motivation for rape is a lack of sexual release. At the same time, fantasy and masturbation aided by pornography can provide the needed release, while masturbation without porn, will not.

The "Give them porn or they'll rape you" hypothesis would probably fail in the same way the "Attractive young women in short skirts cause rape" hypothesis collapses when actual rape victims are considered. It's found the majority were not young, wearing a short skirt, not attractive in a conventional sense.
The correlation exists, the same pattern has been observed in many countries. Any answer must address why we observe the relationship, simply denying it is not an answer.
 
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