Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

Women in crisis forced to make desperate choices in a state that criminalizes abortions. Putting the mother in jail for two years is sure to prevent her from terrorizing the public.

It's about deterrence.

I was going to argue with you but you are right. It’s about deterrence through fear. And about controlling women.

Yeah, if they don't put her in jail, why should anyone obey the authoritarian law?

Can't compel a baker to expression, but can compel a woman to give birth.

Sentenced to 90 days in jail. The right-wing is full of shit. Abortion is murder... and she covered up a murder... 90 days in jail? Why? Because people would be marching in the street if she got 20 years?

In a plea bargain earlier this month, Jessica Burgess pleaded guilty to two felonies – removing, concealing or abandoning a dead human body; and performing an abortion beyond 20 weeks – and the misdemeanor charge of false reporting.

And finally, Meta is dead to me. Yes, this is old news, but to hell with Facebook.

Police in Norfolk, Neb., had been investigating the woman, Jessica Burgess, and her daughter, Celeste Burgess, for allegedly mishandling the fetal remains of what they'd told police was Celeste's stillbirth in late April. They faced charges of concealing a death and disposing of human remains illegally.

But in mid-June, police also sent a warrant to Facebook requesting the Burgess' private messages. Authorities say those conversations showed the pregnancy had been aborted, not miscarried as the two had said.

The 90 day sentences were very recent--reported within the past 24 hrs. They were facing much, much more time.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes. I knew the sentence (or plea deal) was veyr recent. I was speaking on the Facebook thing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And in Missouri...

The Missouri Supreme Court on Thursday ordered the Republican attorney general to stand down and allow an initiative petition to legalize abortion in the state to move forward.

Supreme Court judges unanimously affirmed a lower court's decision that Attorney General Andrew Bailey must approve the cost estimate provided by the auditor, despite Bailey's insistence that the cost to taxpayers of restoring abortion rights could be as much as a million times higher than what the auditor found.

Because Bailey refused to approve Republican Auditor Scott Fitzpatrick's cost estimate, the secretary of state has not been able to give the amendment his stamp of approval that is needed for supporters to begin gathering voter signatures to put it on the ballot in 2024.

The GOP is scrambling in several purple to reddish purple to red states over and these abortion voting initiatives. It is clear America in majority, in red states, support abortion rights. In Ohio they are trying to make it so you can't even get initiatives on the ballot. In Missouri, the Attorney General was scraping the bottom of the bucket and their Supreme Court gave him the finger.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And now a Faux commentator effectively makes a case for Roe vs Wade. Of course they're too clueless to see it:

Fox News host caught accidentally making the case for Roe v Wade

Jesse Watters makes an argument that sounds familiar to many liberals and progressives

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Toni]

And now a Faux commentator effectively makes a case for Roe vs Wade. Of course they're too clueless to see it:

Fox News host caught accidentally making the case for Roe v Wade

Jesse Watters makes an argument that sounds familiar to many liberals and progressives

www.independent.co.uk

Yes, similar arguments were made re: vaccination during the pandemic by the right. I would argue the difference between abortion and vaccination is a matter of public health. Whether or not I continue a pregnancy affects me, and my family. Whether or not I decide to get vaccinated against a serious, potentially dangerous or even deadly contagious disease affects everybody.

Of course the right was using that argument to be anti-vax: If it's your right to choose what to do with your body, why isn't it my right to choose not to be vaccinated?

 

[ZiprHead]

Nearly two years after Texas’ six-week abortion ban, more infants are dying

Texas’ abortion restrictions – some of the strictest in the country – may be fueling a sudden spike in infant mortality as women are forced to carry nonviable pregnancies to term.

Some 2,200 infants died in Texas in 2022 – an increase of 227 deaths, or 11.5%, over the previous year, according to preliminary infant mortality data from the Texas Department of State Health Services that CNN obtained through a public records request. Infant deaths caused by severe genetic and birth defects rose by 21.6%. That spike reversed a nearly decade-long decline. Between 2014 and 2021, infant deaths had fallen by nearly 15%.

In 2021, Texas banned abortions beyond six weeks of pregnancy. When the Supreme Court overturned federal abortion rights the following summer, a trigger law in the state banned all abortions other than those intended to protect the life of the mother.

The increase in deaths could partly be explained by the fact that more babies are being born in Texas. One recent report found that in the final nine months of 2022, the state saw nearly 10,000 more births than expected prior to its abortion ban – an estimated 3% increase.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nearly two years after Texas’ six-week abortion ban, more infants are dying

Texas’ abortion restrictions – some of the strictest in the country – may be fueling a sudden spike in infant mortality as women are forced to carry nonviable pregnancies to term.

Some 2,200 infants died in Texas in 2022 – an increase of 227 deaths, or 11.5%, over the previous year, according to preliminary infant mortality data from the Texas Department of State Health Services that CNN obtained through a public records request. Infant deaths caused by severe genetic and birth defects rose by 21.6%. That spike reversed a nearly decade-long decline. Between 2014 and 2021, infant deaths had fallen by nearly 15%.

In 2021, Texas banned abortions beyond six weeks of pregnancy. When the Supreme Court overturned federal abortion rights the following summer, a trigger law in the state banned all abortions other than those intended to protect the life of the mother.

The increase in deaths could partly be explained by the fact that more babies are being born in Texas. One recent report found that in the final nine months of 2022, the state saw nearly 10,000 more births than expected prior to its abortion ban – an estimated 3% increase.

More important to me than the ones who die fast are the ones who die slow. Major league child abuse in my book.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In Ohio, money is coming in from all over the place, mostly over state lines for the Issue 1 special election in August. Around $15 million raised for No, with only about 20% local (from Ohio). The Yes movement has raised about $5 million, with over $4 million coming from one person... in Illinois. Ultra wealthy Trumper, Richard Uihlein's PAC is almost single handedly financing the yes movement. So much for the whole:

...you would have to build a consensus; you would have to build a broader sort of support for your ideas

...supporting going to a super majority.

 

[ZiprHead]

An abortion ban made them teen parents.

When Brooke met Billy at a skate park in Corpus Christi, Tex., in May 2021, she could not have predicted any piece of the life she was now living. She’d been gearing up for real estate school, enjoying long days at the beach with her new boyfriend. Then she found out she was three months pregnant. And because of a new law, she could no longer get an abortion in Texas. The closest clinic that could see her was in New Mexico, a 13-hour drive away.

She gave birth to Kendall and Olivia six months later.

Brooke, Billy and their baby girls appeared in a story in The Washington Post just days before Roe v. Wade was overturned last summer, thrusting the family into a polarized national debate and turning them into symbols they never imagined they’d become.

For many readers, Brooke and Billy’s story was a Rorschach test, with each side of the abortion debate claiming the teenagers’ experiences as validation of their own views. Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) called the story “powerfully pro-life.” Abortion rights advocates decried the Texas law that compelled an ambitious young woman to abandon her education and raise two kids on the $9.75 an hour her then-boyfriend made working at a burrito restaurant. People on both sides of the issue donated more than $80,000 to a GoFundMe account that Brooke created, providing a financial cushion the couple says has kept them out of debt.

At the center of the abortion debate is the question of how an unwanted pregnancy, carried to term, reverberates through the lives of those directly involved. The most prominent study on the subject, conducted by a pro-abortion-rights research group at the University of California at San Francisco, included interviews with nearly 1,000 women over the course of eight years. The study, which was published as a book in 2020, found that women who are denied abortions experience worse financial, health and family outcomes than those who are able to end their pregnancies.

 

[Shadowy Man]

An abortion ban made them teen parents.

Then she found out she was three months pregnant.

Wow. I wonder how that happened??

Note: just a little snark. I’m against abortion bans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not a big fan of arguments for abortion about money. While it certainly is a player, I think a better argument is simply that a woman is the god of her own body.

I think the financial portion of it is the exposure of how full of crap the evangelicals and pro-lifers are when it comes to nurturing life they have no skin in. They become quite apathetic to those forced into motherhood.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm not a big fan of arguments for abortion about money. While it certainly is a player, I think a better argument is simply that a woman is the god of her own body.

I think the financial portion of it is the exposure of how full of crap the evangelicals and pro-lifers are when it comes to nurturing life they have no skin in. They become quite apathetic to those forced into motherhood.

I wouldn't call it apathy, though. Forced motherhood is punishment for immoral behavior. Underlying much of the opposition to abortion is the sense that women who become pregnant aren't behaving properly, should know that they aren't behaving properly, and should suffer the consequences of engaging in sex recklessly without an actual attempt procreate. Fathers carry some of the blame, but they don't play a role in terminating an accidental pregnancy. The idea of making exceptions for reasons of rape, incest, or health concerns are evidence of the real puritanical motive behind much of the push to end abortions. It isn't about preserving a human life. It is about making women take the blame for their reckless promiscuity. So it makes sense not to punish those women whose pregnancies can be forgiven because of exceptional circumstances. I am oversimplifying the motives behind the antiabortion movement, because it isn't all just about punishing women for having sex, but I do think that the generalization has some merit. There is ample evidence that it is not really indifference to women, but moral retribution for making the wrong choices, for behaving irresponsibly.

 

[Gospel]

Legislation founded on religion = bad

 

[Toni]

I'm not a big fan of arguments for abortion about money. While it certainly is a player, I think a better argument is simply that a woman is the god of her own body.

I think the financial portion of it is the exposure of how full of crap the evangelicals and pro-lifers are when it comes to nurturing life they have no skin in. They become quite apathetic to those forced into motherhood.

I wouldn't call it apathy, though. Forced motherhood is punishment for immoral behavior. Underlying much of the opposition to abortion is the sense that women who become pregnant aren't behaving properly, should know that they aren't behaving properly, and should suffer the consequences of engaging in sex recklessly without an actual attempt procreate. Fathers carry some of the blame, but they don't play a role in terminating an accidental pregnancy. The idea of making exceptions for reasons of rape, incest, or health concerns are evidence of the real puritanical motive behind much of the push to end abortions. It isn't about preserving a human life. It is about making women take the blame for their reckless promiscuity. So it makes sense not to punish those women whose pregnancies can be forgiven because of exceptional circumstances. I am oversimplifying the motives behind the antiabortion movement, because it isn't all just about punishing women for having sex, but I do think that the generalization has some merit. There is ample evidence that it is not really indifference to women, but moral retribution for making the wrong choices, for behaving irresponsibly.

I know a number of Evangelicals (and may be related to some) and honestly, for many of them, it's about murdering babies. That's how they see it. Some have never had children. Some have children or grandchildren who were born very premature and survived or who have congenital conditions. I remember long ago a friend who was gay opposing abortion because he thought any woman who knew her kid was gay would choose to abort. And of course, they think about China, with it's enforced policy limiting family size and the fact that in China and in India and probably some other places, women will abort female babies, hoping for a male. They equate China's forced abortions with abortion, period. There are no exceptions in their minds, except, perhaps, to save the life of the mother. Because babies are gifts from God and in the case of rape, it's bringing something good out of something bad. A consolation prize, rather than a reminder of a terrible event and a difficult choice. And you can always put the baby up for adoption! And if it's healthy and white, it will probably find a home very quickly.

The life of the mother does not enter into it much, except maybe some sympathy.

 

[Gospel]

I find it perplexing how some derive their anti-abortion stance from divine beliefs. There are several instances, even in religious texts, where God intervened in the lives of pregnant women, fetuses, children, and adults in ways that could be interpreted as abortions. I mean if we're all Gods children and God killed some of use at every stage of birth including after birth what gives?

• The Flood: In the book of Genesis, God floods the earth, killing everyone except Noah and his family.
• The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah: In the book of Genesis, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone except Lot and his family.
• The Plagues of Egypt: In the book of Exodus, God sends a series of plagues on Egypt, killing many people.
• The Fall of Jericho: In the book of Joshua, God helps the Israelites conquer the city of Jericho, killing everyone inside.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Shadowy Man]

I find it perplexing how some derive their anti-abortion stance from divine beliefs. There are several instances, even in religious texts, where God intervened in the lives of pregnant women, fetuses, children, and adults in ways that could be interpreted as abortions. I mean if we're all Gods children and God killed some of use at every stage of birth including after birth what gives?

• The Flood: In the book of Genesis, God floods the earth, killing everyone except Noah and his family.
• The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah: In the book of Genesis, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone except Lot and his family.
• The Plagues of Egypt: In the book of Exodus, God sends a series of plagues on Egypt, killing many people.
• The Fall of Jericho: In the book of Joshua, God helps the Israelites conquer the city of Jericho, killing everyone inside.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

When God does things it’s different from when man does things.

 

[Gospel]

Under the doctrine of the incarnation, it's perceived that God took human form. In a sense, one could argue that God chose to end His own earthly existence - a self-induced termination akin to an abortion - for the greater purpose of ensuring the survival and redemption of all humanity. We were all saved by abortion!

 

[Politesse]

Really, any time God kills somone it is an abortion. If he knows that we are all fundamentally immortal, all mortals must seem little different from embryos. Our real lives have yet to begin.

 

[ZiprHead]

I find it perplexing how some derive their anti-abortion stance from divine beliefs. There are several instances, even in religious texts, where God intervened in the lives of pregnant women, fetuses, children, and adults in ways that could be interpreted as abortions. I mean if we're all Gods children and God killed some of use at every stage of birth including after birth what gives?

• The Flood: In the book of Genesis, God floods the earth, killing everyone except Noah and his family.
• The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah: In the book of Genesis, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone except Lot and his family.
• The Plagues of Egypt: In the book of Exodus, God sends a series of plagues on Egypt, killing many people.
• The Fall of Jericho: In the book of Joshua, God helps the Israelites conquer the city of Jericho, killing everyone inside.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Numbers (5:11-31), God's instructions on how to perform an abortion.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm not a big fan of arguments for abortion about money. While it certainly is a player, I think a better argument is simply that a woman is the god of her own body.

I think the financial portion of it is the exposure of how full of crap the evangelicals and pro-lifers are when it comes to nurturing life they have no skin in. They become quite apathetic to those forced into motherhood.

I wouldn't call it apathy, though. Forced motherhood is punishment for immoral behavior. Underlying much of the opposition to abortion is the sense that women who become pregnant aren't behaving properly, should know that they aren't behaving properly, and should suffer the consequences of engaging in sex recklessly without an actual attempt procreate. Fathers carry some of the blame, but they don't play a role in terminating an accidental pregnancy. The idea of making exceptions for reasons of rape, incest, or health concerns are evidence of the real puritanical motive behind much of the push to end abortions. It isn't about preserving a human life. It is about making women take the blame for their reckless promiscuity. So it makes sense not to punish those women whose pregnancies can be forgiven because of exceptional circumstances. I am oversimplifying the motives behind the antiabortion movement, because it isn't all just about punishing women for having sex, but I do think that the generalization has some merit. There is ample evidence that it is not really indifference to women, but moral retribution for making the wrong choices, for behaving irresponsibly.

I know a number of Evangelicals (and may be related to some) and honestly, for many of them, it's about murdering babies. That's how they see it. Some have never had children. Some have children or grandchildren who were born very premature and survived or who have congenital conditions. I remember long ago a friend who was gay opposing abortion because he thought any woman who knew her kid was gay would choose to abort. And of course, they think about China, with it's enforced policy limiting family size and the fact that in China and in India and probably some other places, women will abort female babies, hoping for a male. They equate China's forced abortions with abortion, period. There are no exceptions in their minds, except, perhaps, to save the life of the mother. Because babies are gifts from God and in the case of rape, it's bringing something good out of something bad. A consolation prize, rather than a reminder of a terrible event and a difficult choice. And you can always put the baby up for adoption! And if it's healthy and white, it will probably find a home very quickly.

The life of the mother does not enter into it much, except maybe some sympathy.

As I said in my post, punishing women is not the only motive, so I wasn't trying to excuse in every case the standard claim about murdering babies as the main motive. However, that excuse is an easier one to make, because it makes the person making the claim appear to take a more altruistic stance--saving the life of a baby. It isn't about getting revenge on sinners, the main motive that a vengeful God would have in mind. My point was that the "save the babies" person needs to oppose abortions for rape and incest, at least, because those kinds of "babies" are still humans. Nevertheless, most people who favor laws on banning abortion seem willing to allow for exceptions on those grounds. To me, it seems that they aren't as concerned about the baby as they are about the circumstances under which the woman got pregnant. You'll also hear them complaining that some women use abortion as a method of birth control.