Roe v Wade is on deck

[Rhea]

Do you publicly support, and push your governments to attain, and argue whenever the topic of reducing abortions come up, that the best way to reduce abortions right now is to provide free-to-user, easily accessible, long acting reversible birth control?

Yes.

So can we ban abortion now?

Aaahh. You have just demonstrated that you missed the entire point.

Once you lobby for and achieve free-to-user, easily accessible, long acting reversible birth control, you don’t NEED to ban abortions, because no one gets one unless their life, health or fertility is at risk.

Lobbying for free-to-user, easily accessible, long acting reversible birth control means that you are on the same side as the majority of people, and if you can overcome the fundy fascists who want to withhold that, then the abortions are reduced, nearly immediately, to 1/10 of what they were. And that 1/10 is used by people who need the abortions to save their life or health. And who would want to prevent those people from access?

That’s the thing! we’d all agree with you, and stand side by side to fight together for the same thing!

But.. then you demonstrated that you don’t have the passion for actually stopping abortions in a way that would put you on the same side, because you gave it lip-service then demanded to ban abortions, which takes a very very long time, during which lots of abortions still happen.

“So can we ban abortion now?”
Well, obviously not, since free-to-user, easily accessible, long acting reversible birth control does not exist yet. It is still being blocked by a fanatical minority. One can’t just say one agrees, one has to do everything one can to make it happen. Otherwise one is dissembling, no?

You would stop more abortions faster - and we both know this - by fighting them and not me. By fighting those who oppose free-to-user, easily accessible, long acting reversible birth control. They still need to be fought. They are still blocking free-to-user, easily accessible, long acting reversible birth control.

“So can we ban abortion now?”
Why would you want to, at that point? It would only kill women with wanted pregnancies suffering from major problems. Wouldn’t that be actually monstrous?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just to throw some more reality into the picture:



The fetus was dead. She almost died from a lack of a D&C.

I can't read that.

Blame the board. It tried to render the link. Follow the link, it's fine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which is more important to you? Fighting against sex or fighting against abortions?”

Fighting against abortion.

What an easy question that was.
If having sex killed people, I'd be against that equally.

Those who are born will die. Reproductive sex kills people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To back up Rhea’s fantastic post:

from https://cdphe.colorado.gov/fpp/about-us/colorados-success-long-acting-reversible-contraception-larc:

The Colorado Family Planning Initiative (CFPI) drove a 50 percent reduction in teen births and abortions, avoided nearly $70 million in public assistance costs and empowered thousands of young women to make their own choices on when or whether to start a family.


A private donor’s investment in the state health department’s family planning program allowed us to train health care providers, support family planning clinics and remove the financial barriers to women choosing the safest, most effective form of contraception.

Highlights​

This initiative empowered thousands of Colorado women to choose when and whether to start a family.

Thanks in large part to the Colorado Family Planning Initiative:

• Teen birth rate was nearly cut in half.
• Teen abortion rate was nearly cut in half.
• Births to women without a high school education fell 38 percent.
• Second and higher order births to teens were cut by 57 percent.
• Birth rate among young women ages 20-24 was cut by 20 percent.
• Average age of first birth increased by 1.2 years among all women.
• Rapid repeat births declined by 12 percent among all women.
• Costs avoided: $66.1-$69.6 million.

It is demonstrably true that these kinds of efforts reduce abortions. Yet the “pro-life lobbies” never seem to invest or back them.

Of course they don't.

This is yet another example of them showing their true colors.

Their positions make far more sense if you look at them as trying to make non-reproductive sex dangerous. The theory that fits the facts the best is probably the right one.

 

[Politesse]

Remember when the “centrists” said that progressives were being hysterical about the “unfounded fear” that the right to abortion would ever be at risk?

I sure as hell do.

Now they tell us we're being hysterical about the likelihood of anti-sodomy laws coming back, despite that ruling being specifically called out as a future topic for "review" in the very same ruling that ended women's right to privacy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So can we ban abortion now?

...or does your 'whataboutism' have nothing to with the central argument for abortion-on-demand - my body my choice - no matter what Lion IRC says and does about contraception, adoption, welfare for single moms, sex education, monogamy...

Because I dont think youre entitled/authorized to trade away other women's bodily autonomy in return for pro-lifers "walking the walk".

But what is your objective?

When there isn't an unwanted conception there isn't an abortion. Good contraception greatly reduces the abortion rate because it's not needed.

So are you after reducing abortions or are you after increasing unwanted babies?

Reality check time: On average the abortion rate is higher in areas where it's illegal than areas where it is legal.

 

[lpetrich]

• Abortion Trends by Gender
• Public Opinion on Abortion | Pew Research Center
• Data Dive: How women and men feel about abortion issues | Ipsos

In the US, which has had a culture war about abortion for nearly half a century.

From Gallup, in what circumstances should abortion be legal? Also self-ID (pro: pro-choice, anti: pro-life).

• Women: all 40%, some 45%, none 15% -- pro 55%, anti 41%
• Men: all 27%, some 59%, none 12% -- pro 47%, anti 48%

Both sexes were very similar for a long time, until the Dobbs decision. Women reacted by becoming more pro-choice, and men stayed the same as before.

Pew asked whether abortion should be legal or illegal in all or most cases. (Legal) - (illegal) has been 10% - 15% over most of 1995 - 2015, then started to diverge a little, reaching its present value of 27%. The Dobbs decision barely affected it.

• By religious affiliation, white evangelical Protestant -48%, Catholic 19%, white mainline Protestant 31%, black Protestant 45%, unaffiliated 73%
• By political affiliation, Republican and leaning -16%, Democratic and leaning 71%
• By political ideology, conservative Rep/lean -44%, moderate/liberal Rep/lean 36%, conservative/moderate Dem/lean 53%, liberal Dem/lean 92%
• By gender, men 23%, women 31%
• By race & ethnicity, Hispanic 21%, white 22%, black 49%, Asian 54%
• By age, 18-29 53%, 30-49 24%, 50-64 17%, 65+ 20%
• By education, HS or less 15%, some college 30%, college grad+ 37%

Data Dive: How women and men feel about abortion issues | Ipsos - "n five points, we look at how people across 29 countries feel about everything from if, and when, abortion should be legal to who, if anyone, should be punished when it’s illegal." - not just the US

Women are consistently more likely to favor abortion being legal than men, though not by a large fraction, except for young ones, women having constant support and younger men having less support than older ones.

 

[lpetrich]

Some opponents of abortion seem to believe in a conspiracy theory, that men force women to get abortions to cover up their misdeeds.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If 86% of men thought abortion should be legal, it'd be 100% legal everywhere, with drive thru abortion clinics.

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a holy sacrament.

A majority of people do support abortion rights. This whole abortion up through nine months is an absolute lie.

Indeed, I'm just baffled that 86% of men could believe it should be accessible, but it isn't actually protected in law. Or is the some cases actually in some cases and very very very rare circumstances.

 

[TomC]

Some opponents of abortion seem to believe in a conspiracy theory, that men force women to get abortions to cover up their misdeeds.

I know that happens. I think it's rare, but it does.
More often it's the "you'll have to fight me for years to get a dime for anything, you slut" aspect that is more of a problem. It's hard to get child support from someone who doesn't want to be a parent. It's impossible to get daddying.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

Some opponents of abortion seem to believe in a conspiracy theory, that men force women to get abortions to cover up their misdeeds.

Thats me.
I believe that.

...and by "cover up their misdeeds" I mean the man. The dead beat dad who makes the pregnant woman feel abandoned.

 

[pood]

Some opponents of abortion seem to believe in a conspiracy theory, that men force women to get abortions to cover up their misdeeds.

Thats me.
I believe that.

You would believe something as ridiculous that, denying women all agency or even personhood. But then, you believe the north fought the civil war to end slavery. We saw your beliefs on that score completely demolished in the other thread.

 

[Lion IRC]

So can we ban abortion now?

...or does your 'whataboutism' have nothing to with the central argument for abortion-on-demand - my body my choice - no matter what Lion IRC says and does about contraception, adoption, welfare for single moms, sex education, monogamy...

Because I dont think youre entitled/authorized to trade away other women's bodily autonomy in return for pro-lifers "walking the walk".

But what is your objective?

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

When there isn't an unwanted conception there isn't an abortion.

You mean you have to be pregnant to have an abortion? That's incredible!!! When did they discover this? Somebody needs to alert the media.

Good contraception greatly reduces the abortion rate because it's not needed.

You mean not getting pregnant reduces the likelihood of you having an abortion?
That's incredible!!! When did they discover this? Somebody.......

So are you after reducing abortions or are you after increasing unwanted babies?

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

Reality check time: On average the abortion rate is higher in areas where it's illegal than areas where it is legal.

Firstly, I think that data is questionable.

Secondly, correlation doesn't equal causation. (But you already know this right?)

Thirdly, 'the rate of abortion' isn't as meaningful as the absolute quantitative number of abortions. We are counting human lives, not rates of abortion. If a jurisdiction which bans abortion has numerically fewer abortions that's the measurement which matters if you are counting dead babies.

 

[Lion IRC]

Some opponents of abortion seem to believe in a conspiracy theory, that men force women to get abortions to cover up their misdeeds.

Thats me.
I believe that.

You would believe something as ridiculous that, denying women all agency or even personhood.

You didnt quote my entire post. You snipped the really good bit about deadbeat dads.
And thats OK. It was right there for everyone to see and I can say it again if needed.

And your false assertion that I'm denying women all agency or even personhood doesnt bother me either. Because it's false. And I don't need to defend strawman positions.

But then, you believe the north fought the civil war to end slavery.

That's right.
The war was apparently entirely about slavery according to some people.

We saw your beliefs on that score completely demolished in the other thread.

It's good that you think your work there is complete.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women. As stated in previous posts these are demonstrably among the best ways to reduce abortions. Yes?

 

[Lion IRC]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

....if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions per year in the US

If there are that many women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant, then prevention is definitely the best option.

As stated in previous posts these are demonstrably among the best ways to reduce abortions. Yes?

You need to ask that question to all those modern, independent, educated, women living in apparent ignorance of biology101.

It seems to me that THEY are the ones who aren't aware of this "best way" to prevent abortion.

All this 'my-body-my-choice' dogmatic ex cathedra preaching from the church of feminism should be dissected to see if these women actually do know what they are choosing to do.

 

[Ford]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

Well THAT'S certainly a hot take. "Hello, woman of child-bearing age! Here's your appointment to receive your mandatory contraception! And don't you dare give us any of that BS about 'choice,' because it's not your choice! Either you have this, or you have kids. Sorry, ladies, no freedom for you!"

 

[Toni]

Some opponents of abortion seem to believe in a conspiracy theory, that men force women to get abortions to cover up their misdeeds.

In fact I know some whose now ex husband did force her to get an abortion because he did not want a child. She refused when she became pregnant a second d time and he divorced her and spent years avoiding paying child support abd refusedcto have any kind of relationship with his daughter or to actually acknowledge her existence beyond what the military forced him to do u til his daughter was nearly an adult. And my sister’s ex divorced her because she refused to abort my niece. Yeah, some men are like that and some attempt to Indy abortion by beating the hell out of the pregnant woman. Or simply call her a slit and get a bunch of their buddies to claim they all slept with her so who knows who the father is. Harder to do now with DNA tests.

It is morally repugnant abd wrong to force anyone to do anything with their body that they do not willingly do. This includes carrying a pregnancy or ending a pregnancy.

 

[ZiprHead]

The war was apparently entirely about slavery according to some people.

You mean the southerners?

 

[Lion IRC]

The majority of Americans disagree with the abortion lobby's (my-body-my-choice) position that abortion should be legal on-demand for any reason at any time during the pregnancy. Most Americans, strictly speaking, are not pro choice.

This makes me ask, which abortions should be banned. Opinions - anybody?

- Abortions coerced by an abusive, violent partner?

- Down Syndrome babies? Eugenics?

- Gender selection? Patriarchy?

- Abortions after 22 weeks?

- Abortions done without informed consent of both parents?