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Roe v Wade is on deck

Some of the hardest reading I've done in my life has been about the foundational requirements for proving "1+1=2", and I haven't even finished the book!
This is covered in bachelor's level math classes. It's no more difficult than proving that up is in the opposite direction of the force of gravity and down is in the direction of the force of gravity.
 
Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.
Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?
Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
For the purposes of abortion, yes. You agree. . We are just disagreeing on the precise location for determination.
 
Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.
Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?
Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
For the purposes of abortion, yes. You agree. . We are just disagreeing on the precise location for determination.
I do NOT agree. I don't believe that location determines personhood. I believe that developmental stage determines personhood.
 
Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.
Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?
Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
For the purposes of abortion, yes. You agree. . We are just disagreeing on the precise location for determination.
I do NOT agree. I don't believe that location determines personhood. I believe that developmental stage determines personhood.
If a rape victim realizes she is pregnant in the 3rd trimester, you would not permit her to have an abortion? After all, we don't kill persons because of their parent's behavior.
 
Actually, it is. You want to impose your faith-based view that a 30 week old fetus is a baby that merits the same legal protection against murder as a baby.
As opposed to your faith based view that a 30 week developed human inside of a woman is a non-person with no rights, whereas a 30 week developed human outside of a woman is a person with rights.
Are you saying it’s NOT??😳
That a newborn is a person, is an observation-based “view”aka a FACT. Not subject to semantics or politics, just a FACT.
An unborn human is a fetus. At 18 weeks or 80 weeks, it’s a FETUS. If you don’t have a definitive, instantaneous personhood test for fetuses, your attempt to muddy the waters is just stupid IMO.

I find my view, which is agnostic of the location of the developing human, to be far less faith-based than your view that location makes the difference between a person and a non-person.

How you find your own view is hardly germane. The faith content of your “view” as determined by your “view”, is not something anyone should use as a basis for legislation. That’s MY view of your finding of your own view.
My view of your ACTUAL view (vs your view of your view) is that you are deluded about the imaginary benefits of criminalizing reproductive health decisions.
Show your work - your view of your view is not worth the electrons used to transmit it, as far as the harms or benefits of abortion laws, WHICH YOU ARE UNWILLING TO DISCUSS.
 
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
No, functioning lungs do. /sarcasm

For crissakes you don't know. Nobody knows. Personhood has no objective existence to measure - it's a word that we use to refer to a subjective quality of some organisms and to deny the existence of in others, even of the same species. It's capricious, necessarily defies detection, measurement or any other quality of legal evidence, so it is OBVIOUSLY unsuited as a parameter for serious criminal legalities.
 
Actually, it is. You want to impose your faith-based view that a 30 week old fetus is a baby that merits the same legal protection against murder as a baby.
As opposed to your faith based view that a 30 week developed human inside of a woman is a non-person with no rights, whereas a 30 week developed human outside of a woman is a person with rights.

I find my view, which is agnostic of the location of the developing human, to be far less faith-based than your view that location makes the difference between a person and a non-person.
Of course you do because your faith demands it. Otherwise you’d have no seemingly rational for forcing a pregnant woman to term against her will.

My position is not based on some nebulous notion of “personhood “ but simplicity: in womb - fetus, out of womb - person. It doesn’t require metaphysical musing on “personhood “ or “viability “ or changes in medical technology. Nor does entail forcing a sentient and developed human to undergo an unwanted and potentially painful, debilitating or deadly procedure in order to satisfy my morality.

Your proposal is an improvement in the status quo. And it may be the best our society can achieve. But that does not make it any less fauth-based.
 
I do NOT agree. I don't believe that location determines personhood. I believe that developmental stage determines personhood.
If a rape victim realizes she is pregnant in the 3rd trimester, you would not permit her to have an abortion? After all, we don't kill persons because of their parent's behavior.
Genuinely? No, if I were the queen of the world, I would not permit her to have an abortion that late, for exactly the reason you state: we don't kill people because of their parent's behavior.

I would absolutely fund economic support for the remaining duration of her pregnancy, continuing counseling and emotional support for the tragedy she experienced, and I would give her the option of being sedated for delivery and never having to see the baby if she wanted - have it immediately removed and placed for adoption all at state expense. I support doing everything we reasonably can to minimize the harm she experiences... short of murdering the child for the crimes of the father.

But I also realize that the vast majority disagree with me on that. I understand that they're coming at it from a position of empathy, from a very emotional place. And I respect that even if I don't agree with it, I get it. So that's not a policy for which I argue, and it's not something I try to convince other people to support. That's pretty much the tipping point for me, the difference between what I believe, and what I advocate.
 
That a newborn is a person, is an observation-based “view”aka a FACT. Not subject to semantics or politics, just a FACT.
An unborn human is a fetus. At 18 weeks or 80 weeks, it’s a FETUS. If you don’t have a definitive, instantaneous personhood test for fetuses, your attempt to muddy the waters is just stupid IMO.



You're drawing an arbitrary line at "So tell me". Then you're arguing that "If we have red text" and "evolution to occur" exist on a continuum where we can't draw an instantaneous and unambiguous distinction that every one of those lines is red.

And of course, that I'm a stupid evil hateful person because I disagree with where you've arbitrarily drawn the line.

In reality, however, I recognize that there's a continuum, but also that there's a meaningful difference between "If we have red text" and "evolution to occur". I can look at it at say that the former is definitely red, the latter is definitely blue, and a whole lot in the middle is definitely purple. And I can make the determination that for most reasonable people, everything above "macroscopic" is probably going to be considered not blue, which doesn't mean it's blue... it just means it's definitely not blue. And I can look at the rest and make a judgement that from "will illustrate" down, most reasonable people will agree that it's definitely blue.

I can also use solid reasoning and logic to conclude that somewhere in between "large enough" and "first word here" is the inflection point - somewhere in those few lines is where the difference between purple and blue gets drawn. It might differ by word as well as line for every person, and sure some people are going to draw their line at the very first letter, and some are going to argue that the line is off the page entirely because people don't reach "full blue" until they're 10. But the vast majority of people are going to be in that same range.

And I can propose that the optimal solution between the conflicting rights of the mother and the fetus is somewhere in there. You can make an argument for exactly which line - you might even be able to convince me that a specific word in that line is the right place to draw the boundary. I recognize and accept that there is a range of uncertainty with no clear delineation.

But you can't convince me "you are now still reading red" is the only part of the prose that is genuinely blue.
 
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As you pointed out, Roe v Wade was an interpretation of law because there was no specific law. There is still no specific nationwide law. Perhaps if you contemplated why that is, you might grasp why someone might view your position unreasonably optimistic.
Yes, yes, incurably optimistic to advocate for an actual nationwide law to be put in place. Absolutely a crazy idea.
Why not enact national laws governing who may and may not get vasectomies? Who gets what type of treatment for prostate cancer? For hypertension? Cardiac disease? Treatment for impotence?

Why are only women’s bodies and choices to be regulated and restricted by law?
 
That a newborn is a person, is an observation-based “view”aka a FACT. Not subject to semantics or politics, just a FACT.
An unborn human is a fetus. At 18 weeks or 80 weeks, it’s a FETUS. If you don’t have a definitive, instantaneous personhood test for fetuses, your attempt to muddy the waters is just stupid IMO.


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Thank you for making my point.
 
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
No, functioning lungs do. /sarcasm

For crissakes you don't know. Nobody knows. Personhood has no objective existence to measure - it's a word that we use to refer to a subjective quality of some organisms and to deny the existence of in others, even of the same species. It's capricious, necessarily defies detection, measurement or any other quality of legal evidence, so it is OBVIOUSLY unsuited as a parameter for serious criminal legalities.

But you do agree that personhood is actually a thing, right? You do recognize that some entities are persons? I mean, I assume you would agree that @bilby is a person, and @Toni is a person, even if you don't agree that I'm one? ;)

And I'm betting you agree that non-personhood is a real thing too, right? Like, the keyboard I'm typing on isn't a person, wouldn't you agree?

If those two things are true, then there must exist an inflection point between them, some stage of transition from non-person to person - even if nobody can perfectly agree on where that curve is perfectly horizontal.

I bet if you put your mind to it, you could make a reasonable and logic estimate of the range within which the vast majority of other people looking at the same curve would agree that the it's more or less horizontal. And I bet that such a range is not at the very extreme end of the curve.
 
That a newborn is a person, is an observation-based “view”aka a FACT. Not subject to semantics or politics, just a FACT.
An unborn human is a fetus. At 18 weeks or 80 weeks, it’s a FETUS. If you don’t have a definitive, instantaneous personhood test for fetuses, your attempt to muddy the waters is just stupid IMO.


View attachment 49683
Thank you for making my point.
Dude, you're insisting that "you are now still reading red" is the only part of the prose that is genuinely blue. You've chosen the 99th percentile to arbitrarily draw your line. It's unreasonable and illogical.
 
Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.
Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?
Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.
Most everyone agrees on that.
It's also the point where conservatives stop caring about its well being.

Given the scarcity of thing we agree on, I suggest that that's when we should confer the rights, benefits and protections of “personhood”.
See above.
 
Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.
Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?
Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
Once delivered, it is separate from its mother and no longer dependent upon her heart, her lungs, her kidneys, her blood and breath and all of her organs to live.

Until then, the needs of the mother are primary and the needs of the fetus are secondary.
 
But you do agree that personhood is actually a thing, right?
No. Personhood is a word. It refers to an ill/defined, unquantifiable, undetectable quality ascribed by most humans to most other humans. It has no external objective reality. It has correspondences but not congruency with other people’s usage and understanding as well as with some objective realities. But personhood itself is not an objective reality.
I prefer my laws be based more on realities, but that’s not always the case. Nor is it my main beef.

Why I oppose them altogether is more related to the privacy argument that the Court ignored. It really is none of the government’s damn business. There needs to be damn good demonstrable reason to justify the cost and the harm, if you want Government to impose restrictions over medical professionals’ life saving options EVER, especially in abortion cases, which are not some kind of picnic for anyone.
The camel is shitting all over the floor of the tent in Texas, Ohio and wherever they had traps ready to spring upon the Dobbs decision.
But whatthehell - it’s not like it will matter one bit what you or I think personhood is or what kind of law would be the best deterrent to unneeded abortion;
It looks like we will be finding out more about where the Road of Good Intentions leads, as abortion bans proliferate throughout the land. Perhaps more data will confirm your bias, but right now, I don’t think so. I think coat hangers will be back before the right even has time to claim righteous victory in justifying their misogyny.
 
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I’m reconsidering the how common corruption is among medical professionals, in light of the fact that The Felon’s personal “physician” has declined to have him carted off to the looney bin.
Is this the same one (I hope) who declared he would live to be 200?
 
That a newborn is a person, is an observation-based “view”aka a FACT. Not subject to semantics or politics, just a FACT.
An unborn human is a fetus. At 18 weeks or 80 weeks, it’s a FETUS. If you don’t have a definitive, instantaneous personhood test for fetuses, your attempt to muddy the waters is just stupid IMO.


View attachment 49683
Thank you for making my point.
Dude, you're insisting that "you are now still reading red" is the only part of the prose that is genuinely blue. You've chosen the 99th percentile to arbitrarily draw your line. It's unreasonable and illogical.
Why don’t you pick a point Ems?
ANY point. I don’t care where it is in your graphic (that demonstrates that there is no point).
Solid red, solid blue, somewhere in the middle - I DO NOT CARE, AS LONG AS IT IS ALWAYS READILY IDENTIFIED. Because if it’s not, and you legislate something fuzzy, it is a recipe for injustice as has been repeatedly demonstrated.
You are so hung up on semantics you’ve forgotten about PEOPLE.

That is just thing #3 in the scope of reasons why an authoritarian approach to regulating reproductive health care is a bad idea.

#2 is that it’s none of government’s business as I have illustrated

#1 is that allowing government to restrict abortion care in any way, will ALWAYS give means to authoritarians to increase and expand their presence in the exam room, the NICU and everywhere else they don’t belong. To deny that is just stupid - the fact is written in blood everywhere it is allowed.
 
Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.
Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?
Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.
So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?
Once delivered, it is separate from its mother and no longer dependent upon her heart, her lungs, her kidneys, her blood and breath and all of her organs to live.

Until then, the needs of the mother are primary and the needs of the fetus are secondary.
So delivery it and separate it from the mother.
 
No. Personhood is a word. It refers to an ill/defined, unquantifiable, undetectable quality ascribed by most humans to most other humans. It has no external objective reality.
I'll put you down as simultaneously believing that granite outcrops are persons and also that bilby is not a person.
 
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