Will Wiley
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[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk9xe9nHGPc[/YOUTUBE]
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Russian students demand Barack Obamabe judged for his crimes. Appeal to the United Nations
- Thread starter Will Wiley
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Melange_Thief
New member
First of all, hey, I was not expecting to see a university I've been to on this video. Huh. Apparently AGU is doing a better job of indoctrinating its students these days; when I was there last time, the girl I dated there was not a fan of Putin and ended up emigrating to the evil USA (though admittedly the Pacific Northwest, widely known to be the best part of that country).
Second of all, this seems like a good place for a compromise: Obama will submit himself to the UN for an honest hearing determining the international legality of his actions in the Middle East if Putin will submit to UN hearings for an honest hearing determining the international legality of his actions in Eastern Europe and Syria. Obama will close Guantanamo Bay if Putin will close state media services and allow an independent media. What would be unfair about this?
Third of all, these students clearly weren't paying attention to Bush's actions if they think Obama steadily follows Bush's policy (then again, I bet they weren't old enough to do so). While some of the goals are more uncomfortably similar than they should be, Obama has a policy of not going out of his way to fuck up his own goals, a clear break from the previous administration.
Second of all, this seems like a good place for a compromise: Obama will submit himself to the UN for an honest hearing determining the international legality of his actions in the Middle East if Putin will submit to UN hearings for an honest hearing determining the international legality of his actions in Eastern Europe and Syria. Obama will close Guantanamo Bay if Putin will close state media services and allow an independent media. What would be unfair about this?
Third of all, these students clearly weren't paying attention to Bush's actions if they think Obama steadily follows Bush's policy (then again, I bet they weren't old enough to do so). While some of the goals are more uncomfortably similar than they should be, Obama has a policy of not going out of his way to fuck up his own goals, a clear break from the previous administration.
Will Wiley
Veteran Member
There is no evidence these students are fans of Putin. No mention of Putin at all.
I was hoping we wouldn't get a stream of Americans saying Putin this and Putin that, but maybe that is too much to hope for.
it's not that hard is it? these students see America committing war crimes and Obama in charge. So naturally they think "the buck stops with Obama". Maybe that thinking is out of vogue these days?
It's far more powerful to ask Obama to take responsibility, as we can see from your comments where you essentially make excuses for him by saying he is not as bad as Bush
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Melange_Thief
New member
This is fair. I just find it a bit hypocritical that these students don't also criticize the overreaches other countries make, including their own, but for all I know they criticize that too.
Oh, I'm not making that excuse. I'm taking issue with them saying Obama continues Bush's foreign policy. If there's any excuses for Obama I'm making here, it's that Putin has been just as bad or worse.
Also, I noticed you didn't reply to my second point. Should I take your silence for agreement that Putin and Obama should both answer to the UN and strive to improve the human rights situations in their respective countries then, in the manners outlined?
Will Wiley
Veteran Member
How on earth do you know they don't?
In what way has Putin been worse?
These students are looking to civilian dead.
How many civilians has America killed in the last 7 or 8 years and how many has Russia killed?
We can easily look to thousands of civilians in Libya where there were over 9000 bombing raids, all the way to Afghanistan where recently America apparently deliberately bombed a hospital.
What has Russia done that is worse in your mind?
Feel free to make your case. All you have done so far is to make vague assertions.
whichphilosophy
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Many would agree with what these students are saying and hopefully we in the West will stop starting all these wars. On a smaller note I hope the students are also campaigning for improvements in human rights and standards of living in Russia.
Melange_Thief
New member
... I just said that I don't know that. I was making an assumption and took their silence on that score as a lack of disagreement. Perhaps they do criticize Russia for these things; I just find it strange that they take such a strident tone about the USA's involvement in the world without acknowledging that their own government is guilty of nearly all of the things they condemn the USA for.
It's after 3:30 in the morning here so I'm not going to look up exact figures yet. I will note that Libya was a multinational action, meaning that the USA is not responsible for all of the civilian deaths there (and that's leaving aside the fact that the guy this multinational coalition took out was gearing up to do just as bad or worse). Also, Russia has been reported to have deliberately bombed hospitals as well, so that's not exactly an example of the USA being a worse threat on that front.
I don't think it's done worse, just things that are roughly as destabilizing and disrespectful of human rights. Russia illegally seized Crimea and is actively fomenting an insurgency in eastern Ukraine, displacing entire cities from their homes as a result (and if you want to pretend that Russia isn't involved in this then please offer an explanation for the mysterious increase in military "accidents" Russia's been suffering). I would like to note that this particular set of actions has also removed credibility from the nuclear disarmament movement by violating an agreement where Russia agreed not to violate Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for Ukraine handing in its nukes, utterly destroying any incentive for a country to exchange nukes for guarantees of territorial integrity. It waged a brutal war in Chechnya, and though I acknowledge that their opposition there isn't exactly respectful of human rights either, that doesn't excuse the large death toll the Russian forces did cause, nor does it excuse the puppet government ruling over the Chechens which effectively denies people there representation in what's supposedly a federal system. Putin has overseen a centralization of media power in the hands of the state, and media and political leaders opposed to Putin have suffered more than their fair share of "mysterious" deaths. His government has seen free speech rights being restricted for gay and lesbian individuals, and very little is done to prevent the harassment and murder of LGBTs and ethnic minorities in Russia. And just as America could choose at any time to annihilate the students in this video (which is one of the complaints the students give), so too could Russia choose to annihilate me and everyone I know with the press of a button whenever.
My case? I was just trying to ask if you figured it would be fair to submit the Russian Federation to the same treatment as the USA when it comes to convening UN hearings about unsavory international activities and human rights violations.
Will Wiley
Veteran Member
Whether or not Russia or anyone else has violated human rights is irrelevant. It doesn't excuse another party (in this case the United States).
These students in a very short video indicated why they believe America should be on trial.
If you believe another party should be as well then you need to make a case. Doesn't that sound reasonable?
Unfortunately this thread is devolving predictably. Some one suggests America should be called to account and justifications for killing civilians.
How could anyone have done worse?
Have you seen what has happened in Libya? Are you serious?
Will Wiley
Veteran Member
Or they could be noting the hypocrisy of America which has imposed illegal sanctions and coerced others to do the same and thus lowered their standard of living
Jayjay
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If the students had actually studied instead of just acted on propaganda videos, they'd know that this isn't how UN or the international tribunals work. Ban Ki Moon doesn't have the power to prosecute anyone.
I suggest that they urge their own government, as well as governments of the countries they perceive to be wronged by the United States, to ratify the Rome Statute and thus join the ICC.
I suggest that they urge their own government, as well as governments of the countries they perceive to be wronged by the United States, to ratify the Rome Statute and thus join the ICC.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Well, it's just so hypocritical for Russians to be shaming any country over foreign policy. Have they not heard of the carpet bombing in Syria. I could go on and on and on....
barbos
Contributor
International Cricket Council?
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Buddy: Putin would never allow Russia to ratify the Rome Statute!
barbos
Contributor
US has not ratified it either, and not going to.
And prosecute Putin for his actions in Syria?
He's been far more reckless about hitting civilians that we are.
He's been far more reckless about hitting civilians that we are.
untermensche
Contributor
These students have no control over the actions of their government.
And they are absolutely right.
As Chomsky has demonstrated many times. If US presidents were subject to the rules established at Nuremberg every single one after WWII would all be hung, including Obama.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
There was a big hubbub during W's presidency about the ICC and Rome Statute. We used to be members of ICC and either did ratify the statute or intended to but backed out during that administration. That's because the US under Bush changed policies to advocate for torture, preemptive war etc which was even more aggressive than past administrations. John Bolton (professional car salesman turned UN ambassador by Bush) wrote a letter to the UN in 2002 explaining our withdrawal. This went along with Gonzalez calling Geneva Conventions quaint and memos being passed around approving torture.
barbos
Contributor
More reckless than US arming ISIS and the rest of terrorists?
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Cool, I always liked crickets.
All Chomsky has demonstrated is that he thinks he knows about a subject he knows little of.
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What's the most common terrorist weapon? AK-47. A Russian gun.