Sanders Supporters Should Not Quit On Him Now

[Tristan Scott]

Unlike what his starry eyed supporters like akirk think Sanders is an adept politician. He's been in Washington for 25 years and knows his way around. I have confidence that he knows how much clout he has. He'll know how far he can go, and more to the point how long he can go in negotiations. It looks pretty obvious that Clinton has already moved to the left, and it also seems pretty clear that she will chose a liberal running mate.

 

[untermensche]

What would be the best outcome behind this strategy? What do you hope to accomplish?

Barring Sanders becoming the nominee, which ain't gonna happen.

Yes.

Hard to imagine anything more incredible than Hillary Clinton.

We have reached a state of perfection.

There is no more work to do.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What would be the best outcome behind this strategy? What do you hope to accomplish?

Barring Sanders becoming the nominee, which ain't gonna happen.

Yes.

Hard to imagine anything more incredible than Hillary Clinton.

We have reached a state of perfection.

There is no more work to do.

You didn't answer the question asked.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

They're not irrelevant if Congress starts turning blue. Which can only happen by keeping such issues, and the public response to them, in sight.

I'm all for Sanders keeping his vision alive. But by holding HRC's feet to the fire by working with her. Kinduva hold your friends close and your enemies closer thing.

Surely he deserves a nice piece of pie in exchange for throwing his support and delegates behind her. But what kind of pie? He's more of a domestic guy, so not SecState, I'm guessing. HUD? Labor? Pinkie swear not to renege?

I think he'd be happiest staying in the Senate where his power and ability wouldn't be dependent on Presidential goodwill and would give his support in exchange for various legislative promises. The longer he holds out, however, the less leverage he has because less people will be willing to work with him.

Congress will turn blue if Sanders' supporters come out and vote and it will stay red if they don't. As a leader in the Senate, he has the ability to hold Clinton's feet to the fire. As some pissed off guy who can't accept that voters prefer her to him by a wide margin and is seen by his colleagues as undermining their ability to get a majority and implement some of the stuff they want, he gets more and more shut out and they'll stab him in the back as soon as it's politically convenient to do so.

 

[Elixir]

The longer he holds out, however, the less leverage he has because less people will be willing to work with him.

Sanders must be well aware of that dynamic. I think he's pretty well positioned to discern the actual point of diminishing returns, as long as he doesn't take a page out of Trump's book and let his ego be his guide.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Maybe DNC chair.

That's what Howard Dean did, one of the better ones IMO, not that I follow it much. The 50 state initiative I thought was a very good one.

 

[Treedbear]

What would be the best outcome behind this strategy? What do you hope to accomplish?

Barring Sanders becoming the nominee, which ain't gonna happen.

Recent polls show Sanders farther ahead of Trump than Clinton is, and he'd get a higher percent of her votes than she'd get of his if the other drops out, but the Clinton name in itself guarantees a larger Republican turnout. I'd bet she can beat Trump but there's still the threat of the email investigation. Trump and the Repubs look pretty despicable right now ... but who knows? So I'd be really worried if Bernie surrendered now.

My hope is that, aside from some feel-good wording in the Dem platform, she takes on Elizabeth Warren as VP. I heard her speak on a couple occasions recently and she's really found her voice. She has a very assertive message now, all in with Bernie on the important issues, and I would expect HRC would not be able to keep her hushed up. Even if they let her go after the first term she would gain the footing and the following for a future campaign. Otherwise the causes that Bernie stood for will fade way as we are all assimilated back into our silos.

...
How so? The convention isn't worth shit. ...

Noted.

If Sanders' supporters come out and vote in the general election, they will get the Dems a majority and he will be a major power player in that majority congress and he can push forward whatever he wants as a result, regardless of whether or not it was in the convention platform and put together a bloc to kill whatever he doesn't like regardless of whether it was in the convention platform. He will be negotiating from a position of strength after he has shown that he has what it takes to deliver. If he tries to negotiate too hard now, he will just cause resentment and anger amongst his colleagues and undercut his ability to influence policy.

Yes, I expect him to negotiate a very careful course that balances party welfare with his principles. Its up to the DNC as well as the liberal press to show some restraint rather than arrogant indignation. They are the ones who need to earn some trust. And unlike them I expect he has a better grip on ethical standards. But if he is unable to bring back anything from the convention his supporters will think they've been wasting their time and go the way of OWS.

 

[untermensche]

Yes.

Hard to imagine anything more incredible than Hillary Clinton.

We have reached a state of perfection.

There is no more work to do.

You didn't answer the question asked.

What does any political action accomplish?

Is it all futile?

 

[arkirk]

Unlike what his starry eyed supporters like akirk think Sanders is an adept politician. He's been in Washington for 25 years and knows his way around. I have confidence that he knows how much clout he has. He'll know how far he can go, and more to the point how long he can go in negotiations. It looks pretty obvious that Clinton has already moved to the left, and it also seems pretty clear that she will chose a liberal running mate.

At some point he figures Hillary will butter his bread. He has been there in that corrupting atmosphere for 25 years. He may just support something he knows as opposed to something he fears. I am not putting him down for that....just not supporting Hillary. It is just that simple. Adept or not...I pointed out that supporting her election is supporting an unknown quantity as she is an inveterate liar. There are some standards that cannot be undercut and there Hillary is, doing it. So is her chum Obama...supporting endless war (for war profiteers), voting while in the Senate for the bankers' bankruptcy "reform." Her track record is abominable and a lot of it has been at the expense of betraying some erstwhile supporters. We are at an environmental crossroads and our government had contributed to the international stew of conflicts just enough to keep us in a precarious situation. She is the WRONG MEDICINE. So is Trump. Both promise to be warmongers. Both believe might makes right. Neither are serious about our environment to be trusted with it. Our country is going in the wrong direction...and Tristan somehow seems to feel that only elite money grubbers can keep order. He could perhaps start by putting out that cigarette.
It does not remind me of Roosevelt, but rather the foolishness of personal affectation.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Recent polls show Sanders farther ahead of Trump than Clinton is, and he'd get a higher percent of her votes than she'd get of his if the other drops out, but the Clinton name in itself guarantees a larger Republican turnout. I'd bet she can beat Trump but there's still the threat of the email investigation. Trump and the Repubs look pretty despicable right now ... but who knows? So I'd be really worried if Bernie surrendered now.

My hope is that, aside from some feel-good wording in the Dem platform, she takes on Elizabeth Warren as VP. I heard her speak on a couple occasions recently and she's really found her voice. She has a very assertive message now, all in with Bernie on the important issues, and I would expect HRC would not be able to keep her hushed up. Even if they let her go after the first term she would gain the footing and the following for a future campaign. Otherwise the causes that Bernie stood for will fade way as we are all assimilated back into our silos.

I've been aware for some time that BS polls better against Trump. Irrelevant at this point. Equally so wrt to Warren. I like her, but it would be too radical, and Mass will go for HRC without her. Besides, she's more effective in the Senate. Maybe Treasury?

Sherrod Brown is an interesting choice.

But you didn't address what Bernie should do.

 

[arkirk]

Recent polls show Sanders farther ahead of Trump than Clinton is, and he'd get a higher percent of her votes than she'd get of his if the other drops out, but the Clinton name in itself guarantees a larger Republican turnout. I'd bet she can beat Trump but there's still the threat of the email investigation. Trump and the Repubs look pretty despicable right now ... but who knows? So I'd be really worried if Bernie surrendered now.

My hope is that, aside from some feel-good wording in the Dem platform, she takes on Elizabeth Warren as VP. I heard her speak on a couple occasions recently and she's really found her voice. She has a very assertive message now, all in with Bernie on the important issues, and I would expect HRC would not be able to keep her hushed up. Even if they let her go after the first term she would gain the footing and the following for a future campaign. Otherwise the causes that Bernie stood for will fade way as we are all assimilated back into our silos.

I've been aware for some time that BS polls better against Trump. Irrelevant at this point. Equally so wrt to Warren. I like her, but it would be too radical, and Mass will go for HRC without her. Besides, she's more effective in the Senate. Maybe Treasury?

Sherrod Brown is an interesting choice.

But you didn't address what Bernie should do.

It would be perfectly reasonable for Bernie to tell the Democratic Party to screw itself and run on a third party. There has to be some major change to push this lot of corrupt Democrats and Republicans into rational non criminal behavior.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

It would be perfectly reasonable for Bernie to tell the Democratic Party to screw itself and run on a third party. There has to be some major change to push this lot of corrupt Democrats and Republicans into rational non criminal behavior.

That's opposed to what, Sanders not being a Democrat until about a year ago?
And it would be idiotic and more grossly self-serving for him to run as a third party candidate than anything that Trump's doing these days.

"Major Change." I'm not going to ask what that means.

 

[Deepak]

It would be perfectly reasonable for Bernie to tell the Democratic Party to screw itself and run on a third party. There has to be some major change to push this lot of corrupt Democrats and Republicans into rational non criminal behavior.

That's opposed to what, Sanders not being a Democrat until about a year ago?
And it would be idiotic and more grossly self-serving for him to run as a third party candidate than anything that Trump's doing these days.

"Major Change." I'm not going to ask what that means.

Sanders isn't going to run as a third party candidate.

 

[Tristan Scott]

Maybe DNC chair.

That's what Howard Dean did, one of the better ones IMO, not that I follow it much. The 50 state initiative I thought was a very good one.

This ^^

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why would you quit on him now?

I really don't think it is a cult of personality of Sanders. I think the Sanders supporters are just a natural progression from the occupy wall street people, and once these people leave Sanders they can be galvanized into something further that Warren does or somebody else does. It isn't about just this one guy and his time is about up.

 

[arkirk]

That's opposed to what, Sanders not being a Democrat until about a year ago?
And it would be idiotic and more grossly self-serving for him to run as a third party candidate than anything that Trump's doing these days.

"Major Change." I'm not going to ask what that means.

Sanders isn't going to run as a third party candidate.

Sanders still is a fixture around Washington. He has lived with the smothering atmosphere of rich contributor based politics and is used to it. To ask him to run as a third party candidate nationally is a daunting thought to any Washington figure. The duopoly is well dug in and there would be severe consequences for Sanders if he were to run on a third party ticket. We seem to have the idiotic notion that democracy is a matter of amassing 50%+1 and the means employed is of no significance, so we accept results that are the outcome of various voter suppression tactics...and act like everything is "normal." Don't get upset about this. Our country easily accommodated slavery at one time and was very slow to relinquish it. Tristan and others seem to think that there is significance in cultured manners and that compensates for lack of morality in our leadership. I don't expect Sanders to run but he should and begin to expand a third party with those who would follow him. He is not going to win under any condition and there are plenty of paid personnel that have seen to that, but he could bust the duopoly wide open with a significant portion of his 10 million + following. That might actually prove to be the UNSELFISH OPTION. Damn the torpedos...full speed ahead and qualify a third party for public funding. He happens to be running in an election where both parties have weak candidates who are not well liked and who openly insult large portions of the electorate.

 

[RavenSky]

if you want the US political machine to move to the left you can't just post on your facebook about how you like bernie one election cycle. ideological shifts are done from the bottom up - liberal mayors, democrat city council members, progressive governors, leftist congress and senate members. people have to actually pay attention to regional politics and affect change from the ground level to get the political landscape of the entire country to shift.

But it has happened. HRC came out against TPP. Both HRC and Obama are talking about expanding SS, not "reforming" it with a "grand bargain". Those developments came out of the response to Sanders.

I think both of these things are true, and all the more reason that Tristan's OP makes excellent sense.

Continuing support for Bernie Sanders, and his involvement and support for progressive candidates up and down the ticket, is what is needed.

Bernie has done a pretty good job of educating and galvanizing younger voters. I think he needs to continuing doing that, but educating and galvanizing them to vote for progressive candidates at the local and state levels. Bernie Sanders own history is a perfect example... he started as a Mayor. He also needs to help shift/separate the massive following for his ideas from himself. He needs to remind his followers that it isn't about him - the 74-year-old individual. It's about the ideas he supports, which are not unique to him. His championing lower ticket candidates that share his ideology is a major part of what will shift us further left.

At the same time, yes - Bernie Sanders should continue to push left at the presidential and congressional level. Yes, I am certain that he has almost single-handed (because of his unexpected massive success) pushed Hillary Clinton a bit to the left. He needs to take every little bit of political capital at his disposal to keep up that pressure. I think Bernie Sander's success has shown Hillary Clinton and others that there is an appetite for a more progressive platform, but Sanders supporters need to continue supporting him to keep up the leftward pressure.

 

[RavenSky]

... The only question for Sanders' supporters which remains is whether they want her to be backing away from them after the election as a result of needing to negotiate with a GOP Congress and Senate or whether she'll be sticking with them after the election due to the demands being made from a Dem Congress and Senate.

Given their numbers and their passion, that question is pretty much entirely in their hands right now.

How is her real agenda in their hands right now, other than by continuing to support the Sanders campaign and get the message out? Especially since probably very few of us believe a word of her acrobatic pandering. She'll move very quickly to consolidate the established regime. Sanders was/is our last best hope. There will have to be a very active and tangible threat to party unity at the convention in order for there to be any hope for meaningful change.

Disagree.

How did Bernie ever get to the position he is in now. He started in local politics. His supporters (me included) need to start electing more people like Bernie at every level of government. Even if Hillary Clinton took office and then adopted 100% of Bernie's positions, U.S. Presidents actually have very limited ability to accomplish anything at all without Congress. That's 534 people who are not Bernie, but positions that Bernie supporters could help fill with people who share Bernie's views.

It is not over. It has only just begun... as long as his supporters don't give up and walk away

 

[Treedbear]

How is her real agenda in their hands right now, other than by continuing to support the Sanders campaign and get the message out? Especially since probably very few of us believe a word of her acrobatic pandering. She'll move very quickly to consolidate the established regime. Sanders was/is our last best hope. There will have to be a very active and tangible threat to party unity at the convention in order for there to be any hope for meaningful change.

Disagree.

... Even if Hillary Clinton took office and then adopted 100% of Bernie's positions, U.S. Presidents actually have very limited ability to accomplish anything at all without Congress. That's 534 people who are not Bernie, but positions that Bernie supporters could help fill with people who share Bernie's views.

It is not over. It has only just begun... as long as his supporters don't give up and walk away

My point is that they are more likely to do just that if they're ignored (*). But I think Clinton will be quite satisfied to focus entirely on Trump like he's some matador waving a red cape. If she wants a majority in Congress so she can really get something done rather than just wage another war and pander to the financial oligarchs she needs to demonstrate authentic concern. If she does there'll be no stopping us. (!)

* Not me. I vote as frequently as possible. I even switched parties in 2012 so I could vote in the Republican primary! The reason to vote is for the entirely selfish reason that I want to be counted. I think politicians will do anything for my vote. But they'll be more than glad to be able to ignore me if they think I'm too lazy to be bothered. And I try to get everyone I know in my community to vote for the same reason. If enough people thought this way the lobbyists couldn't find enough money to exert the influence they do now. People are trained that it's their patriotic duty to vote and that lots of blood and sacrifice was made for that right. Who needs that kind of religious guilt-trip?! I wish I could've told Bernie he should be telling the poor and disenfranchised that they need to vote, and it doesn't even matter who they vote for. "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" is better than not voting at all.

 

[arkirk]

Are you going to vote for whoever you vote for because you are afraid of something and are only marginally less afraid of the candidate you are accepting. Is fear your basis for voting? Ask yourself how that fear was generated...who spent the money that made you feel afraid? Trump is a pure prick. His is the language of intimidation, insult and violent opposition to his opponents. Who else has the same habits? You will find her very nearby...same M O, same arbitrariness regarding her future actions. Do you vote for her because you fear Trump? There will be lots of people voting for Trump because of racist and chauvanist fears. The problem with this electoral season...nothing positive is in the air without progressive politics. Our country is languishing in the toilet of negative ideation that leads toward violence on both sides of this contest. While there might be somebody we call a "winner" in this election, our country is again set to come up a loser...an empire on the way down.