SCOTUS - AA ... news from the future

[Metaphor]

At Harvard it was Asian stents not whites making an issue.

Was it? Because whites seems to be leading the charge here. A good piece at UNC about the UNC Asian students being against the lawsuit. This is much like "mothers against abortion" typically being a bunch of older white men. This is racist white America trying to take blacks out of their institutions.

So, white people asking not to be systemically discriminated against is "racist white America trying to take blacks out of their institutions"?

We do not want SCOTUS to decide what they think is the right thing socially. We already see that depending on the majority of the court, as with abortion.

Umm no, not remotely the same thing, as both cases will rely on a dependence of hyper-technicality over real world. These cases are much more like Plessy v Ferguson, where the court sees no evil, hears no evil as they pretend that things can 'just work out' as long as it is separate but equal.

Regardless of historical racism, blacks have to compete fairly for what an individual wants. Today I do not buy that blacks today dace an inherent barrier to higher education.

Blacks in Jackson, Mississippi can't drink the fucking water! You don't think that has an impact on school performance?

Can non-blacks in Jackson, Mississippi drink the fucking water?

In the 70s I supported affirmative action. I worked at places where I knew if an application had a an address or an African sounding name from certain neighborhoods it was trashed.

What would the response be if the NBA or NFL selected white players who were not as good as black athletes in order to maintain 'diversity'?

At not point in our fucking history were whites held back from opportunities to play in professional sports, so that analogy is stupid.

Affirmative Action is about the chance at being given an opportunity. One that was stolen due to intentional multi-generational discrimination, theft, and restrictions.

So, when institutions talk about the benefits of 'diversity', that is not the real reason they discriminate by race, and what they are really doing is giving people an opportunity?

 

[Derec]

A good piece at UNC about the UNC Asian students being against the lawsuit.

All of them? Even if majority have drank the Koolaid, that does not mean that those who disagree with racial preferences are tool of the Whitey.

This is racist white America trying to take blacks out of their institutions.

Bullshit. Basing college admissions on race is what's racist, by definition.

Umm no, not remotely the same thing, as both cases will rely on a dependence of hyper-technicality over real world. These cases are much more like Plessy v Ferguson, where the court sees no evil, hears no evil as they pretend that things can 'just work out' as long as it is separate but equal.

The colleges that can be most accurately described as "separate" are so-called HBCUs. `They are the least diverse colleges and universities in the US. And yet, those who say that racial preferences are needed to achieve "diversity" also tend to be big supporters of nigh monochromatic HBCUs. Hmm.

Blacks in Jackson, Mississippi can't drink the fucking water! You don't think that has an impact on school performance?

And whose fault is that btw? The mayor of Jackson is a left-wing black Democrat. He is the son of the former mayor who was btw. a black supremacist. Five out of seven city council members are black, presumably Democrats.
Besides, a) the water issues would affect all residents of Jackson, MS, not just the black ones and b) the water problems were caused by flooding. They would not cause long-term issues with school performance.

At not point in our fucking history were whites held back from opportunities to play in professional sports, so that analogy is stupid.

Not the point. Even in Bakke it was held, at least via the plurality decision, that the justification for racial preferences can be to increase diversity, not to "make up" for past discrimination that the beneficiaries of AA did not suffer nor those harmed from it have benefited from. As far as I know, subsequent decisions upheld that reasoning.
So Steve's example with sportsball leagues is right on point.

Affirmative Action is about the chance at being given an opportunity.

Equal opportunity cannot be given by discriminating based on race. Talking to defenders of AA is like Newspeak. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. And not discriminating by race is racism.

One that was stolen due to intentional multi-generational discrimination, theft, and restrictions.

Not according to Justice Powell it isn't. And that was in 1978. That reasoning is even more flimsy today. Kids who enter college now have been born around 2004, long after after these discriminations you talk about. They were four when Obama was elected president, for fuck's sake!

Which is why Africans Americans fill out the rest of their fucking college applications!

And yet the color of their skin (or for Latinos, having an ancestry from a Spanish speaking country) confers quite a bit of advantage.

Asian-American Harvard Admits Earned Highest Average SAT Score of Any Racial Group From 1995 to 2013

 

[Derec]

Do you believe this? Do you believe that all white people had "easier circumstances" than all black people, and this justifies race-based systemic discrimination against white people?

The movement Leftism has a hard time seeing individuals. They see people as masses, mere ciphers for their identity group - race, gender, class, religion.
They do not acknowledge that under the policy of racial preferences a black daughter of a Coca Cola executive from Atlanta gets a preference over a white coal miner's daughter from Bumfuck, West Virginia. Or that a son of a Latino named partner in a LA law firm gets a boost over a son of working class Vietnamese-Americans.

 

[Derec]

You know, if you move to India, they already have a caste system in place that you'll just love.

The caste system is about what caste you were born into.
And Affirmative Action is about what race you were born into.

By the way, 18% of admitted students at Harvard are black. Despite significantly worse stats. This is not even "equity" (aka equal outcomes by group) any more. It's even beyond that, as this number is higher than black population share in the US.

 

[Elixir]

My animus is toward unfairness and bigotry.

Like the unfairness and bigotry of discriminating on the basis of race in college admissions?

[removed] it’s seriously doubtful that this alleged “unfairness” effects you at all. in fact, by complaining about this phantom injury, you are just following the orange leader, loudly complaining about things that are not so, like stolen elections and POC depriving you of higher education.
Knee jerk complaints about POC “replacing you” are the RW’s stock in trade, [removed]. It’s not POC’s fault.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Was it? Because whites seems to be leading the charge here. A good piece at UNC about the UNC Asian students being against the lawsuit. This is much like "mothers against abortion" typically being a bunch of older white men. This is racist white America trying to take blacks out of their institutions.

Which is silly because the primary benefit will be to the Asians, the whites aren't going to get much.

Agreed. It is very silly.

Regardless of historical racism, blacks have to compete fairly for what an individual wants. Today I do not buy that blacks today dace an inherent barrier to higher education.

Blacks in Jackson, Mississippi can't drink the fucking water! You don't think that has an impact on school performance?

1) As with most "discrimination" it's actually socioeconomic or political.

The word you are looking for is "INERTIAL".

2) Letting them into college with lower scores isn't going to undo the harm.

And I head back to my sports analogy, and drafting players on more than just a couple statistics. Heck, I remember a classmate who got National Honor Society without taking a single accelerated or AP level class. Their GPA was great, but there was a lack of commitment. Hanging a hat on GPA and SAT/ACT scores negates the other aspects of a potential student that also matter.

At not point in our fucking history were whites held back from opportunities to play in professional sports, so that analogy is stupid.

Affirmative Action is about the chance at being given an opportunity. One that was stolen due to intentional multi-generational discrimination, theft, and restrictions.

Which is basically saying two wrongs make a right.

This smells a bit like a 'we are all sinners' fallacy. To suggest that generational wealth theft and blatant to violent discrimination was somehow a "wrong" and providing a path to a small number of potentially successful college students a bit more weight outside the bare metrics as "wrong" and being "two wrongs don't make a right" is a bald equivalence fallacy.

Hint: The benefits of AA go to people who weren't harmed by the past discrimination.

How the heck not? My Grandfather benefitted from the GI bill... which made a huge difference for his family (and father). Which then I become a benefactor of. The generational wealth is quite possibly one of the least appreciated wrongs done to blacks in America. We aren't talking about AA making up for people getting dogs lashed at them. We are talking about Plessy v Ferguson, wealth restrictions, home owner restrictions holding several generations of blacks back, keeping them from being able to build legacies for their following generations to build off of. AA doesn't come close to fixing that, but we have to start somewhere... or just tell blacks, it'll work out in another 3 or 4 generations.

We knew this was an issue in the late 1960s. And nothing was done, so instead of building off the progress of change back then, things were made worse... seemingly quite intentionally so.

 

[ZiprHead]

By the way, 18% of admitted students at Harvard are black. Despite significantly worse stats.

What stats are those and are those stats the only measure used to determine suitability?

 

[Oleg]

To get around the SAT scores of Asian applicants, Harvard uses a personallity score. If Harvard is to be believed, Asians are just too boring to have on campus.

 

[Oleg]

How the heck not?

It's an open secret that the black admits overwhelming come from high income families, are biracial, or are children of African or Carrbbean immigrants.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know, if you move to India, they already have a caste system in place that you'll just love.

The caste system is about what caste you were born into.
And Affirmative Action is about what race you were born into.

That you seem oblivious to the significance of that in America due to our history of centuries of discrimination and theft that only finally started being addressed in the 1960s, but certainly not well is an inadequacy you need to deal with. Getting rid of AA will set African Americans back several more generations, just to catch up to now... and it'll be several more generations down the road. That is an effective caste system.

By the way, 18% of admitted students at Harvard are black. Despite significantly worse stats. This is not even "equity" (aka equal outcomes by group) any more. It's even beyond that, as this number is higher than black population share in the US.

Stats? There is more to a student than a GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Just as there is more to an athlete than a batting average.

 

[laughing dog]

The past term already proved that rationality, stare decisis and consistent legal reasoning are no barrier to the theocrats implementing their agenda, regardless of the societal outcomes. There is no point discussing the expected outcome because it is coming.

 

[Oleg]

Getting rid of AA will set African Americans back several more generations, just to catch up to now...

And the reason the highest earners in the US are non-white is what?

Stats? There is more to a student than a GPA and SAT/ACT scores.

Absolutely. And no student should be advantaged or disadvantaged because of their race. It's shocking that's controversal.

 

[ZiprHead]

To get around the SAT scores of Asian applicants, Harvard uses a personallity score. If Harvard is to be believed, Asians are just too boring to have on campus.

You got that from less than a page and a half of testimony???

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The past term already proved that rationality, stare decisis and consistent legal reasoning are no barrier to the theocrats implementing their agenda, regardless of the societal outcomes. There is no point discussing the expected outcome because it is coming.

Roe v Wade was going to be about how far it went. This case, I think that decision is already set. Affirmative Action is deader than well... something that has been dead a while.

The question with Affirmative Action disappearing becomes what happens afterwards? Do we get people suing schools for not being admitted? Alt-right racist muthafucka organizations looking at race distributions of colleges and suing?

 

[Oleg]

To get around the SAT scores of Asian applicants, Harvard uses a personallity score. If Harvard is to be believed, Asians are just too boring to have on campus.

You got that from less than a page and a half of testimony???

No.

One of the most striking revelations pertains to Harvard’s consideration of applicants’ soft skills—things like “likability,” “helpfulness,” “integrity,” and “courage”—in determining their acceptance. Despite boasting higher test scores, better grades, and stronger extracurricular resumes than applicants of any other racial group, Asian American applicants consistently received lower rankings on those personality traits, according to a statistical analysis conducted on behalf of SFFA of more than 160,000 student records. This emphasis on personality, the analysis concludes, significantly undermined otherwise-qualified Asian Americans’ chances of getting in.

Harvard's Impossible Personality Test

New revelations from a lawsuit against the university capture the difficulty of comparing thousands upon thousands of talented teenagers.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Getting rid of AA will set African Americans back several more generations, just to catch up to now...

And the reason the highest earners in the US are non-white is what?

The value white America puts on sports.

Stats? There is more to a student than a GPA and SAT/ACT scores.

Absolutely. And no student should be advantaged or disadvantaged because of their race. It's shocking that's controversal.

And you keep strawmanning that bullshit. If it were about race, black students wouldn't need to fill out much on their applications.

 

[Oleg]

The value white America puts on sports.

Yes, all those Asians in the NFL and NBA. How did I forget those guys?

nd you keep strawmanning that bullshit. If it were about race, black students wouldn't need to fill out much on their applications.

They practically don't.

 

[ZiprHead]

To get around the SAT scores of Asian applicants, Harvard uses a personallity score. If Harvard is to be believed, Asians are just too boring to have on campus.

You got that from less than a page and a half of testimony???

No.

One of the most striking revelations pertains to Harvard’s consideration of applicants’ soft skills—things like “likability,” “helpfulness,” “integrity,” and “courage”—in determining their acceptance. Despite boasting higher test scores, better grades, and stronger extracurricular resumes than applicants of any other racial group, Asian American applicants consistently received lower rankings on those personality traits, according to a statistical analysis conducted on behalf of SFFA of more than 160,000 student records. This emphasis on personality, the analysis concludes, significantly undermined otherwise-qualified Asian Americans’ chances of getting in.

Harvard's Impossible Personality Test

New revelations from a lawsuit against the university capture the difficulty of comparing thousands upon thousands of talented teenagers.

www.theatlantic.com

Strange. I don't see boring mentioned anywhere in that article.

 

[Oleg]

To get around the SAT scores of Asian applicants, Harvard uses a personallity score. If Harvard is to be believed, Asians are just too boring to have on campus.

You got that from less than a page and a half of testimony???

No.

One of the most striking revelations pertains to Harvard’s consideration of applicants’ soft skills—things like “likability,” “helpfulness,” “integrity,” and “courage”—in determining their acceptance. Despite boasting higher test scores, better grades, and stronger extracurricular resumes than applicants of any other racial group, Asian American applicants consistently received lower rankings on those personality traits, according to a statistical analysis conducted on behalf of SFFA of more than 160,000 student records. This emphasis on personality, the analysis concludes, significantly undermined otherwise-qualified Asian Americans’ chances of getting in.

Harvard's Impossible Personality Test

New revelations from a lawsuit against the university capture the difficulty of comparing thousands upon thousands of talented teenagers.

www.theatlantic.com

Strange. I don't see boring mentioned anywhere in that article.

Nice dodge. But apparently Asians are not very likable or helpful and lack integrity and courage. Do you agree?

 

[ZiprHead]

The value white America puts on sports.

Yes, all those Asians in the NFL and NBA. How did I forget those guys?

nd you keep strawmanning that bullshit. If it were about race, black students wouldn't need to fill out much on their applications.

They practically don't.

Strange. I did that same YouTube search and many white people came up along with black people. I suspect whomever compiled that YouTube list had somewhat of a... bias. And here you are spreading that... bias here.