SCOTUS gay rights case

[Politesse]

For those who say a Christian sole proprietor has to handle a gay wedding.

Should a Jewish catering service be required to cater a Neo Nazi anti Semitic party? In this case catering actually serving at the oarty.

If you have a business like a store or restaurant you are required by laws to serve all.

Does a construction contractor or caterer have a right to refuse offers of work?

It's illegal for a businessperson to discriminate against Germans as a whole class of customers (which woud be a more relevant example), even if they were doing so on "religious grounds".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For those who say a Christian sole proprietor has to handle a gay wedding.

Should a Jewish catering service be required to cater a Neo Nazi anti Semitic party? In this case catering actually serving at the oarty.

Seeing Nazis aren't a protected class of citizen, the question isn't analogous.

And that is ignoring the part where gay couples didn't slaughter millions of Christians. In fact over 40% of LGBT people in the US ARE Christians.

 

[Gospel]

For those who say a Christian sole proprietor has to handle a gay wedding.

Should a Jewish catering service be required to cater a Neo Nazi anti Semitic party? In this case catering actually serving at the oarty.

Seeing Nazis aren't a protected class of citizen, the question isn't analogous.

And that is ignoring the part where gay couples didn't slaughter millions of Christians. In fact over 40% of LGBT people in the US ARE Christians.

Blasphemy! Sinners can't be Christians! Oh wait....

 

[steve_bank]

It is a question of equal protection under the law.

If gays are required to cater to anti gays then that eight for the anti gay to not be selectively discriminated against has to apply to all.

Gays are not pledged or special. Laws were passed to ensure gays have the same rights as heteros. If gays have a right it can not be exclusive.

The best solution is fr people to apply common snnse. howber diffcult that is in our society.

If you are gay find a non conservative Christian service to use.

It is a difficult issue. Whichever wayi t goes legally there is a downside.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is a question of equal protection under the law.

If gays are required to cater to anti gays then that eight for the anti gay to not be selectively discriminated against has to apply to all.

Gays are not pledged or special. Laws were passed to ensure gays have the same rights as heteros. If gays have a right it can not be exclusive.

The best solution is fr people to apply common snnse. howber diffcult that is in our society.

If you are gay find a non conservative Christian service to use.

Okay, so you spent time talking about equal protection, and then your solution is gays just 'have to live with unequal protection and drive some unknown number more miles to find a place that'll sell to them'. That isn't consistent.

It is a difficult issue. Whichever wayi t goes legally there is a downside.

There is no downside. It is simple. You sell wedding cakes, you must sell wedding cakes to all.

 

[Politesse]

If gays are required to cater to anti gays then that eight for the anti gay to not be selectively discriminated against has to apply to all.

Yes. The Fourteenth protects everyone. That's the entire point.

Which is why suing the government so you can be specially allowed to discriminate against a particular class is wrong, even if a panel of specially chosen theocratic judges agrees with you.

 

[steve_bank]

And to belabor the point.

If no one has a right to discriminate then Neo Nazis and all the rest have the same protections.

If I has d a restaurant and Neo Nazis in Nazi regalia sat at a table I would have to serve them.

If they wanted to rent a room in the restaurant and have a Nazi meeting catered I'd have a real problem with that. I might have black, Jewish, and gay employees.

If SCOTUS rules Christians can not decline gay work then I would legally be bound to sevice the Nazis.

 

[Gospel]

And to belabor the point.

If no one has a right to discriminate then Neo Nazis and all the rest have the same protections.

If I has d a restaurant and Neo Nazis in Nazi regalia sat at a table I would have to serve them.

If they wanted to rent a room in the restaurant and have a Nazi meeting catered I'd have a real problem with that. I might have black, Jewish, and gay employees.

If SCOTUS rules Christians can not decline gay work then I would legally be bound to sevice the Nazis.

What part of protected class do you not understand?

Is Nazi a race?
Is Nazi a color?
Is Nazi a religion?
Is Nazi a sex?
Is Nazi a national origin?


Where does a political party fit in above? From what I understand a Nazi can be of any race & color (thanks Kanye), is not limited to any religious faith, sexual orientation or country of origin.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If SCOTUS rules Christians can not decline gay work then I would legally be bound to sevice the Nazis.

No one is asking Christians to do "gay work".

 

[Gospel]

If SCOTUS rules Christians can not decline gay work then I would legally be bound to sevice the Nazis.

No one is asking Christians to do "gay work".

I'm interested in knowing in great detail what steve_bank means by gay work. Asking for a friend (Tomc).

 

[Metaphor]

You, and all the others that want to enshrine the right to discrimination, have yet to say just how far a gay couple has to drive to gain access to a service until their civil rights are being unfairly infringed.

I reject the premise of your question. There is no distance at all that justifies compelling the labour of somebody else to provide specialised art or craft celebrating your event

You are conflating women only gyms with bakeries... because heterosexual couples need to feel safer in a gay free bakery?

I am "conflating" that a women's only gym is discrimination by sex and they are allowed.

 

[Gospel]

I am "conflating" that a women's only gym is discrimination by sex and they are allowed.

One is an excusive club and the other isn't. Glad I can help.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You, and all the others that want to enshrine the right to discrimination, have yet to say just how far a gay couple has to drive to gain access to a service until their civil rights are being unfairly infringed.

I reject the premise of your question. There is no distance at all that justifies compelling the labour of somebody else to provide specialised art or craft celebrating your event.

That isn't rejecting the premise of the question, that is stating that you think a gay couple can be incapable of finding places to do business and that's okay.

Just out of curiosity, what other people should be allowed to be discriminated and incapable of doing business? Can a black-white couple getting married be discriminated as well?

You are conflating women only gyms with bakeries... because heterosexual couples need to feel safer in a gay free bakery?

I am "conflating" that a women's only gym is discrimination by sex and they are allowed.

Yes, that was quite apparent on the face of your statement. I assumed you were trying to draw a parallel, which is why I asked if you thought that heterosexuals felt unsafe in bakeries where gay couples getting married might be looking for a cake. Because women only gyms don't exist in spite, but for security.

 

[Metaphor]

I will never understand why any atheist conservative would want to live under a Christian theocracy. Are you guys genuinely too stupid to realize they'll be coming for you next, once the sexual deviants are all in jail? Fascist states cannot have a true end point or concrete goal, their political power is contingent on constantly identifying new targets for persecution, and they will do so until they finally go too far and are overthrown.

Calm down.

I don't want a gay wedding cake from a baker who doesn't believe in gay weddings.

Curious... do you commonly inquire about the political leanings of all the people you do business with?

What a strange question. Where have I implied I ask about the political leanings of any of the people I do business with? Is there something about the statement "I don't want a gay wedding cake from a baker who doesn't believe in gay weddings" very difficult to understand? Do you think it implies "and therefore, I test any potential baker for his gay-wedding policy before all my gay weddings"?

*at grocery store*

bilby: Metaphor, why are you waiting in that long line, there is no one at aisle 8.
Metaphor: That cashier is against gay marriage.
bilby: Really, didn't know. What about aisle 4, just one person in line there.
Metaphor: Against the flat tax.
bilby: How do you know this stuff? Someone just opened up at 2.
Metaphor: Her? She believes in anthropomorphic climate change.
bilby: ... Why do you have 100 boxes of corn meal?
Metaphor: Well, this could take a while, but long story short, the CEOs, laborers, receptionist or the like at most of the companies that sell the products here have political stances I don't agree with, so I don't want to be mistaken as expressing support for those causes.
bilby: Really. Has it occurred to you that if you buy their products, that means they are supporting your causes?
Metaphor: *mind blown*

I don't know that bilby consented to be a character in your little phantasia.

 

[Metaphor]

I am "conflating" that a women's only gym is discrimination by sex and they are allowed.

One is an excusive club and the other isn't. Glad I can help.

The other what?

 

[Metaphor]

You, and all the others that want to enshrine the right to discrimination, have yet to say just how far a gay couple has to drive to gain access to a service until their civil rights are being unfairly infringed.

I reject the premise of your question. There is no distance at all that justifies compelling the labour of somebody else to provide specialised art or craft celebrating your event.

That isn't rejecting the premise of the question, that is stating that you think a gay couple can be incapable of finding places to do business and that's okay.

Yes: I reject the premise that a gay couple's 'civil rights' are being violated unless you compel the labour of others.

Just out of curiosity, what other people should be allowed to be discriminated and incapable of doing business? Can a black-white couple getting married be discriminated as well?

Just out of curiousity, why do you think other people's creative labour should be compelled?

You are conflating women only gyms with bakeries... because heterosexual couples need to feel safer in a gay free bakery?

I am "conflating" that a women's only gym is discrimination by sex and they are allowed.

Yes, that was quite apparent on the face of your statement. I assumed you were trying to draw a parallel, which is why I asked if you thought that heterosexuals felt unsafe in bakeries where gay couples getting married might be looking for a cake. Because women only gyms don't exist in spite, but for security.

Women's gyms don't exist for 'security'. What? They exist because some women want a single-sex space.

There are thousands of businesses that love the pink dollar so much they specialise in catering to queers, but oh no! Some baker somewhere doesn't want to create a wedding cake for a same-sex union that he doesn't agree with! You have to got to go to him!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I will never understand why any atheist conservative would want to live under a Christian theocracy. Are you guys genuinely too stupid to realize they'll be coming for you next, once the sexual deviants are all in jail? Fascist states cannot have a true end point or concrete goal, their political power is contingent on constantly identifying new targets for persecution, and they will do so until they finally go too far and are overthrown.

Calm down.

I don't want a gay wedding cake from a baker who doesn't believe in gay weddings.

Curious... do you commonly inquire about the political leanings of all the people you do business with?

What a strange question.

Only because you aren't really paying attention to what you are posting.

Where have I implied I ask about the political leanings of any of the people I do business with? Is there something about the statement "I don't want a gay wedding cake from a baker who doesn't believe in gay weddings" very difficult to understand? Do you think it implies "and therefore, I test any potential baker for his gay-wedding policy before all my gay weddings"?

How in the world can you know their stance on gay weddings, if you don't ask? You said it, not me.

*at grocery store*

bilby: Metaphor, why are you waiting in that long line, there is no one at aisle 8.
Metaphor: That cashier is against gay marriage.
bilby: Really, didn't know. What about aisle 4, just one person in line there.
Metaphor: Against the flat tax.
bilby: How do you know this stuff? Someone just opened up at 2.
Metaphor: Her? She believes in anthropomorphic climate change.
bilby: ... Why do you have 100 boxes of corn meal?
Metaphor: Well, this could take a while, but long story short, the CEOs, laborers, receptionist or the like at most of the companies that sell the products here have political stances I don't agree with, so I don't want to be mistaken as expressing support for those causes.
bilby: Really. Has it occurred to you that if you buy their products, that means they are supporting your causes?
Metaphor: *mind blown*

I don't know that bilby consented to be a character in your little phantasia.

I got Falkor's OK to move ahead on it regardless.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You, and all the others that want to enshrine the right to discrimination, have yet to say just how far a gay couple has to drive to gain access to a service until their civil rights are being unfairly infringed.

I reject the premise of your question. There is no distance at all that justifies compelling the labour of somebody else to provide specialised art or craft celebrating your event.

That isn't rejecting the premise of the question, that is stating that you think a gay couple can be incapable of finding places to do business and that's okay.

Yes: I reject the premise that a gay couple's 'civil rights' are being violated unless you compel the labour of others.

Just out of curiosity, what other people should be allowed to be discriminated and incapable of doing business? Can a black-white couple getting married be discriminated as well?

Just out of curiousity, why do you think other people's creative labour should be compelled?

So, the implied answer from you is that you think minorities can be discriminated on, and not able to have access to privileges and services, potentially across the entire nation. See, I get you are an Aussie and are ignorant of American History, but I figured the plight of African Americans in America is kind of a known quantity even to Aussies, so I'm shocked you don't get that we've been there and done that... and fixed it... and now people want to break it again in America.

There are thousands of businesses that love the pink dollar so much they specialise in catering to queers, but oh no! Some baker somewhere doesn't want to create a wedding cake for a same-sex union that he doesn't agree with! You have to got to go to him!

Go to who? Do they advertise they refuse service to gay couples who want to get married... or gay couples in general? You are teetering back and forth... you say it is okay to discriminate against minorities, but there are plenty of people that service them. What about ones that don't live where there are many options? Again... we've been here, done that in America. It didn't work, it was wrong.

 

[Jarhyn]

And to belabor the point.

If no one has a right to discriminate then Neo Nazis and all the rest have the same protections.

If I has d a restaurant and Neo Nazis in Nazi regalia sat at a table I would have to serve them.

If they wanted to rent a room in the restaurant and have a Nazi meeting catered I'd have a real problem with that. I might have black, Jewish, and gay employees.

If SCOTUS rules Christians can not decline gay work then I would legally be bound to sevice the Nazis.

What part of protected class do you not understand?

Is Nazi a race?
Is Nazi a color?
Is Nazi a religion?
Is Nazi a sex?
Is Nazi a national origin?


Where does a political party fit in above? From what I understand a Nazi can be of any race & color (thanks Kanye), is not limited to any religious faith, sexual orientation or country of origin.

I would argue that they could be ejected, even were "Nazi" a protected class.

All one has to do is cite the open threat presented by their attire, a threat against the safety and well-being of their other patrons.

Furthermore, they could be ejected on the grounds of incitement, or on the grounds of material threats, neither of which are protected speech.

If they want to come into a restaurant not wearing any Nazi imagery, and not talk about overthrowing the government and committing a genocide, and avoid the topic of gassing Jews and gay folks, I'm going to argue for their right to be there.

If they break the rules though and openly display Nazi imagery, or state in what may be taken as good faith a desire to wage a world war unto extermination or enslavement of "lesser races" they can be out on their ear and I won't bat an eye.

Again, it is the difference between suffering a person to be there, and suffering bad behavior.

I personally don't agree with "protected classes". I would rather everyone be equally protected regardless of race, culture, or creed.

 

[Metaphor]

I will never understand why any atheist conservative would want to live under a Christian theocracy. Are you guys genuinely too stupid to realize they'll be coming for you next, once the sexual deviants are all in jail? Fascist states cannot have a true end point or concrete goal, their political power is contingent on constantly identifying new targets for persecution, and they will do so until they finally go too far and are overthrown.

Calm down.

I don't want a gay wedding cake from a baker who doesn't believe in gay weddings.

Curious... do you commonly inquire about the political leanings of all the people you do business with?

What a strange question.

Only because you aren't really paying attention to what you are posting.

I know exactly what I've posted.

Where have I implied I ask about the political leanings of any of the people I do business with? Is there something about the statement "I don't want a gay wedding cake from a baker who doesn't believe in gay weddings" very difficult to understand? Do you think it implies "and therefore, I test any potential baker for his gay-wedding policy before all my gay weddings"?

How in the world can you know their stance on gay weddings, if you don't ask? You said it, not me.

I didn't claim I would know without asking. I didn't claim I would go out of my way to find out any such thing. I don't want my hairdresser to be cutting my hair after he's used the toilet without washing his hands, but I don't enquire about it before I get a haircut.

But if we lived in a world where the State did not compel people's creative labour, I assume a business that didn't want to do gay weddings would say so, and I wouldn't go to them for my gay wedding related needs.