So Bibi Wants To Begin The "Final Solution."

[Loren Pechtel]

Present your evidence in support of ^this^ claim. What part of the negotiations and implementation of the Oslo Accords indicates Palestinian participation was a sham?

Where's a reasonable Palestinian proposal?

Jews lived side by side with Christians and Muslims under Ottoman Rule. Unlike you, I don't think the European Jews are too stupid to figure out how it's done.

I already showed what that "side-by-side" was like--and nobody replied. Repeating, not that you're going to pay any attention: https://books.google.com/books?id=-BpeAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

Perhaps people missed it. I know I did. But now that I see you have linked to an actual source, albeit a skimpy one from 1857, I'll check it out.

The 1857 is actually quite relevant--long before the current propaganda war and a contemporary account of the situation. Look at the third paragraph, it describes the "coexistence" you want.

I presume you also think Jim Crow was proper treatment of blacks? Or are blacks people but Jews not?

Of course not.

Honestly Loren, it's like you never actually read any of my posts these past 16 years, you just made strawman arguments and pretended that's what I said.

If you can't read what I post with comprehension, stop quoting me.

Read that book! I'm talking about the reality of what you're asking for, not your fantasy of how it would turn out.

I am anti-pogrom. I am against ethnic cleansing. I oppose human rights abuses. If you can't recognize that after all these years, then you're either amazingly dense or incredibly dishonest.

But you are in willful denial of the abuses that will happen if you get your way.

That first one is unsupported, but even if you had carefully documented it, it still would change the fact that if the land in question was stolen, it doesn't really belong to those who did the stealing.

More Jews fled than Palestinians, and most of the Palestinians that fled took most everything that wasn't nailed down, the Jews that fled generally left with little. Furthermore, the Jews that fled were persecuted simply for being Jewish, the Palestinians were not allowed to return because they sided with the enemy.

The second one is both unsupported and contradictory, and it doesn't refute the point that if the land was stolen, it doesn't really belong to those who did the stealing. Just because people fled for their lives when Irgun terrorists attacked their town doesn't mean they gave their property away or that not allowing them to go back to their homes is justified.

But you want "East Jerusalem" to go to the Palestinians. It's simply the part of Jerusalem that was seized and ethnically cleansed by Jordan.

Do you consider Jews to be people?

Indeed I do. But I'm not surprised you're confused. Not since that time you accused me of denying the humanity of Jews because I was talking about respecting everyone's human rights.

You do not seem to feel they have any of the rights of people. You talk about respecting everyone's rights but you keep making proposals that will at a minimum result in the extirpation of the Jews from Israel.

That's your racism, fear, and bigotry talking. I don't share your view that human rights can only be held by one group of human beings at a time, or that upholding the Rights of one group justifies violating the Rights of another. In fact, I think your view is horseshit.

No, it's your bigotry talking, thinking that the Palestinians are angels that won't carry out the genocide they have spent decades saying they want to carry out. You pretend to respect the rights of Jews but continually ask for them to be put in mortal danger.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They get themselves killed or maimed? How exactly do they do that?

1) Hamas rockets kill more Palestinians than Israelis.

2) Human shield tactics. When Israel is gunning for weapons storage or the like they'll alert the people at ground zero before the bombs fall. Hamas often reacts by making the people stay put and even sending others in hoping to put enough hostages on the target to make Israel not drop. Sometimes they're not fast enough and a bunch of people die while still rushing in.

3) Look at the "protests" at the border that Hamas has been running for some time now. Everyone knows there will be Hamas attacks launched from under the cover of all those civilians and sometimes Israel can't be totally precise in killing only the attackers. It's like standing next to a bank robber shooting at the cops.

Do Zionist settlers ever get themselves killed or maimed the same way? Or is this just Blaming the Victim when the victim is a Muslim?

They aren't engaging in the sorts of things he's talking about.

As I've said, if Israel wants Hamas to recognize its Right to Exist, it has to show the Hamas leadership that doing so will result in some kind of improvement or benefit for the Palestinians. The best way to do that is to reward Abbas and the PA for their recognition back in the 1990s by reciprocating.

Except that's not what Hamas wants. A prosperous Gaza would mean they wouldn't be the only game in town, that is unacceptable. The Palestinians have to be kept in poverty so they can be used as cannon fodder against Israel.

Look back in time a bit--the Palestinian economy was 3x what it is now back before the second intifada. The Palestinian leaders had to know what would happen when they started that. Letting them grow prosperous is not part of the Palestinian gameplan.

It's time for Israel to recognize the Right to Exist of a Palestinian State outside Israel's 1967 borders, just as the PLO and Fatah recognized Israel's Right to Exist inside them. And then Israel should ignore Hamas as long as it refuses to follow the PA's lead. Show Hamas that recognition will be rewarded with recognition, and mutual recognition is better than disputing the legitimacy of each other's governments.

Lead by example.

The PLO pretended to accept Israel, it never modified it's charter.

 

[Arctish]

MAD doesn't require the means of attack be the same. It's Israel's nukes vs the Arab armies.

M.A.D. requires equivalence in the ability to assure destruction. It doesn't exist when you're threatening to destroy a community with nuclear weapons, and people from that community are trying to move into your neighborhood, which BTW was their neighborhood until you and your thug friends stole their houses.

M.A.D. does not exist when one party is comprised of unarmed civilians returning to the homes and communities from which they were expelled and the other party is a State threatening to deploy its nuclear warheads and slaughter those civilians rather than allow them to exist within its borders. That's a Final Solution scenario, and it's vile.

And here you're going totally off track.

It's not about using nukes against "returning" (pretty hard to return to a place you've never been) "civilians". It's about using nukes against those who are using military force to force those civilians on Israel.

The Final Solution scenario is whoever is attempting to force those "civilians" into Israel in order to kill the Jews.

Who are these mysterious cabal members trying to force civilians into Israel so they can kill Jews? And how does that even work? Are refugees like kryptonite who by their very presence will cause the Supermen of Israel to sicken and die? Are Jews horribly allergic to non-Jews so that contact with them will send Jews into anaphylactic shock? Or is this just another variant of your usual hysterical fear mongering whenever the subject of Human Rights and the Rights of Refugees comes up?

It's too bad pulp magazines aren't popular these days. With your lurid imagination you could have made a career out of writing horror stories like Grannies from Shatila and Return of the Safsaf Villagers.

 

[Arctish]

Where's a reasonable Palestinian proposal?

You made a claim. You said the Palestinians were not enthusiastic partners in the Oslo process, that they simply rejected and made no reasonable counter-proposals. You said it was entirely a sham to fool people. We have a saying around here; you might have heard it a time of two:

Put up or shut up.

Back up your claim regarding Palestinian participation in the Oslo Accords. After you do that, we can move on.

 

[angelo]

Not true. Search my forum posts. Look for the word 'assholes'.



They get themselves killed or maimed? How exactly do they do that?

Do Zionist settlers ever get themselves killed or maimed the same way? Or is this just Blaming the Victim when the victim is a Muslim?

But you do not acknowledge that Hamas terrorists use/hide behind civilians, or fire rockets from behind civilians including children.

Nor do you acknowledge the Hamas refusal to recognize the state of Israel!

We've talked about all of this before. This thread is a good sample of our conversations: What should Israel do?

I not only acknowledge Hamas' refusal to recognize the State of Israel, I have many times suggested how official recognition can be obtained.

As I've said, if Israel wants Hamas to recognize its Right to Exist, it has to show the Hamas leadership that doing so will result in some kind of improvement or benefit for the Palestinians. The best way to do that is to reward Abbas and the PA for their recognition back in the 1990s by reciprocating.

It's time for Israel to recognize the Right to Exist of a Palestinian State outside Israel's 1967 borders, just as the PLO and Fatah recognized Israel's Right to Exist inside them. And then Israel should ignore Hamas as long as it refuses to follow the PA's lead. Show Hamas that recognition will be rewarded with recognition, and mutual recognition is better than disputing the legitimacy of each other's governments.

Lead by example.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/05/...ve-to-obtain-nuclear-weapons-to-stop-zionists

 

[Arctish]

Not true. Search my forum posts. Look for the word 'assholes'.



They get themselves killed or maimed? How exactly do they do that?

Do Zionist settlers ever get themselves killed or maimed the same way? Or is this just Blaming the Victim when the victim is a Muslim?

But you do not acknowledge that Hamas terrorists use/hide behind civilians, or fire rockets from behind civilians including children.

Nor do you acknowledge the Hamas refusal to recognize the state of Israel!

We've talked about all of this before. This thread is a good sample of our conversations: What should Israel do?

I not only acknowledge Hamas' refusal to recognize the State of Israel, I have many times suggested how official recognition can be obtained.

As I've said, if Israel wants Hamas to recognize its Right to Exist, it has to show the Hamas leadership that doing so will result in some kind of improvement or benefit for the Palestinians. The best way to do that is to reward Abbas and the PA for their recognition back in the 1990s by reciprocating.

It's time for Israel to recognize the Right to Exist of a Palestinian State outside Israel's 1967 borders, just as the PLO and Fatah recognized Israel's Right to Exist inside them. And then Israel should ignore Hamas as long as it refuses to follow the PA's lead. Show Hamas that recognition will be rewarded with recognition, and mutual recognition is better than disputing the legitimacy of each other's governments.

Lead by example.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/05/...ve-to-obtain-nuclear-weapons-to-stop-zionists

So you're not a fan of Mutual Assured Destruction? Me neither. Too many assholes have their fingers on too many buttons.

BTW, I've decided to use the word 'asshole' more often to make it easier for you to find instances where I criticize people. I will state right now that Grand Mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was an asshole, a bigoted racist who admired the Nazi way of dealing with people they despised and wanted permanently removed.

That Orthodox Rabbi on the Chief Rabbinate Council who wants to hang children for the crimes of their father is an asshole, too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

M.A.D. requires equivalence in the ability to assure destruction. It doesn't exist when you're threatening to destroy a community with nuclear weapons, and people from that community are trying to move into your neighborhood, which BTW was their neighborhood until you and your thug friends stole their houses.

Are you a bot? Because you keep repeating your position without addressing my points at all!

And here you're going totally off track.

It's not about using nukes against "returning" (pretty hard to return to a place you've never been) "civilians". It's about using nukes against those who are using military force to force those civilians on Israel.

The Final Solution scenario is whoever is attempting to force those "civilians" into Israel in order to kill the Jews.

Who are these mysterious cabal members trying to force civilians into Israel so they can kill Jews? And how does that even work? Are refugees like kryptonite who by their very presence will cause the Supermen of Israel to sicken and die? Are Jews horribly allergic to non-Jews so that contact with them will send Jews into anaphylactic shock? Or is this just another variant of your usual hysterical fear mongering whenever the subject of Human Rights and the Rights of Refugees comes up?

It's too bad pulp magazines aren't popular these days. With your lurid imagination you could have made a career out of writing horror stories like Grannies from Shatila and Return of the Safsaf Villagers.

The Arab nations that are backing the Palestinian terrorists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where's a reasonable Palestinian proposal?

You made a claim. You said the Palestinians were not enthusiastic partners in the Oslo process, that they simply rejected and made no reasonable counter-proposals. You said it was entirely a sham to fool people. We have a saying around here; you might have heard it a time of two:

Put up or shut up.

Back up your claim regarding Palestinian participation in the Oslo Accords. After you do that, we can move on.

You're asking me to prove a negative.

 

[Arctish]

Are you a bot? Because you keep repeating your position without addressing my points at all!

Your point is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what M.A.D. is.

Mutual = of or pertaining to two or more parties
Assured = without question or doubt, guaranteed
Destruction = causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.

M.A.D. = a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two or more opposing sides would cause the complete annihilation of both the attacker and the defender.

It doesn't mean "OMG the Palestinians might come back OMG! OMG! OMG! Deploy the nukes!!!1!!". That's just you being hysterical.


BTW, if you think Israel should deploy nuclear weapons on cities full of civilians in order to prevent the return of the Palestinians who were driven out, you have more in common with Grand Mufti al-Husayni than you probably realize, i.e. you're an asshole.

Who are these mysterious cabal members trying to force civilians into Israel so they can kill Jews? And how does that even work? Are refugees like kryptonite who by their very presence will cause the Supermen of Israel to sicken and die? Are Jews horribly allergic to non-Jews so that contact with them will send Jews into anaphylactic shock? Or is this just another variant of your usual hysterical fear mongering whenever the subject of Human Rights and the Rights of Refugees comes up?

It's too bad pulp magazines aren't popular these days. With your lurid imagination you could have made a career out of writing horror stories like Grannies from Shatila and Return of the Safsaf Villagers.

The Arab nations that are backing the Palestinian terrorists.

Ohh, good opening sentence. Which story is that, The Night They Drove Old Yishuv Down? The one where Arab nations force civilians into Israel where they spread a deadly plague that targets Hebrew speakers, and our plucky hero has to destroy the infected populations in a nuclear firestorm because "It's the only way to be sure"?

That would probably sell a few thousand copies if the cover art's any good.

 

[Arctish]

Where's a reasonable Palestinian proposal?

You made a claim. You said the Palestinians were not enthusiastic partners in the Oslo process, that they simply rejected and made no reasonable counter-proposals. You said it was entirely a sham to fool people. We have a saying around here; you might have heard it a time of two:

Put up or shut up.

Back up your claim regarding Palestinian participation in the Oslo Accords. After you do that, we can move on.

You're asking me to prove a negative.

I am asking you to back up your claim with evidence. If you have none, just admit it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your point is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what M.A.D. is.

Mutual = of or pertaining to two or more parties
Assured = without question or doubt, guaranteed
Destruction = causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.

M.A.D. = a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two or more opposing sides would cause the complete annihilation of both the attacker and the defender.

There's nothing about it that inherently includes nuclear weapons. How about a simple, small scale case: A small room. One person pulls the pin on a hand grenade but holds it. Shoot the person, the grenade falls, both people die. MAD at work.

It doesn't mean "OMG the Palestinians might come back OMG! OMG! OMG! Deploy the nukes!!!1!!". That's just you being hysterical.

The Palestinians "coming back" (almost none of them were ever there in the first place and thus can't come back) means they win the next election and can carry out the genocide they have been trying to do for the last 70 years. You just believe the Palestinians are angels that wouldn't actually carry out the genocide.

BTW, if you think Israel should deploy nuclear weapons on cities full of civilians in order to prevent the return of the Palestinians who were driven out, you have more in common with Grand Mufti al-Husayni than you probably realize, i.e. you're an asshole.

They don't need nuclear weapons to stop the Palestinians. The nuclear weapons are to stop the Arab armies.

The Arab nations that are backing the Palestinian terrorists.

Ohh, good opening sentence. Which story is that, The Night They Drove Old Yishuv Down? The one where Arab nations force civilians into Israel where they spread a deadly plague that targets Hebrew speakers, and our plucky hero has to destroy the infected populations in a nuclear firestorm because "It's the only way to be sure"?

That would probably sell a few thousand copies if the cover art's any good.

Actually, most of the backing these days come from Iran and Qatar. Sticking your head in the sand about this doesn't make it go away.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're asking me to prove a negative.

I am asking you to back up your claim with evidence. If you have none, just admit it.

You're asking me to prove the nonexistence of a reasonable offer. How am I supposed to do that??

 

[angelo]

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/05/...ve-to-obtain-nuclear-weapons-to-stop-zionists

So you're not a fan of Mutual Assured Destruction? Me neither. Too many assholes have their fingers on too many buttons.

BTW, I've decided to use the word 'asshole' more often to make it easier for you to find instances where I criticize people. I will state right now that Grand Mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was an asshole, a bigoted racist who admired the Nazi way of dealing with people they despised and wanted permanently removed.

That Orthodox Rabbi on the Chief Rabbinate Council who wants to hang children for the crimes of their father is an asshole, too.

Do you have any proof of that?

 

[Arctish]

There's nothing about it that inherently includes nuclear weapons. How about a simple, small scale case: A small room. One person pulls the pin on a hand grenade but holds it. Shoot the person, the grenade falls, both people die. MAD at work.



The Palestinians "coming back" (almost none of them were ever there in the first place and thus can't come back) means they win the next election and can carry out the genocide they have been trying to do for the last 70 years. You just believe the Palestinians are angels that wouldn't actually carry out the genocide.

BTW, if you think Israel should deploy nuclear weapons on cities full of civilians in order to prevent the return of the Palestinians who were driven out, you have more in common with Grand Mufti al-Husayni than you probably realize, i.e. you're an asshole.

They don't need nuclear weapons to stop the Palestinians. The nuclear weapons are to stop the Arab armies.

The scenario you present isn’t M.A.D. If you don’t understand why you can google it and learn the difference.

And once again, you base your support for a nuclear holocaust on fear and hatred and a determination to preserve the results of ethnic cleansing, in opposition to human rights, justice, and fair dealings. You have more in common with the anti-semites you denounce than you probably realize.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The scenario you present isn’t M.A.D. If you don’t understand why you can google it and learn the difference.

Yes, it is. You kill me, you die also. MAD.

And once again, you base your support for a nuclear holocaust on fear and hatred and a determination to preserve the results of ethnic cleansing, in opposition to human rights, justice, and fair dealings. You have more in common with the anti-semites you denounce than you probably realize.

You still think that forcing Israel to allow the Palestinians in would result in peace. For many decades now they have made their genocidal intent very clear. Why shouldn't we believe them?

Consider the laws on self defense. You need to show means, motive and opportunity. Are these elements present?

Means--certainly. At the level of society this is inherent.

Motive--they have repeatedly stated their genocidal intent.

Opportunity--mixed together this is also inherent.

In other words, the conditions for self defense are fulfilled.

Lets put it on a smaller scale. Your neighbor keeps publicly vowing to kill you. One day someone comes along and breaks down your door an invites him in. He's armed. Do you shoot or do you sing Kumbaya? After all, all he really wanted was to get into your house.

 

[Arctish]

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/05/...ve-to-obtain-nuclear-weapons-to-stop-zionists

So you're not a fan of Mutual Assured Destruction? Me neither. Too many assholes have their fingers on too many buttons.

BTW, I've decided to use the word 'asshole' more often to make it easier for you to find instances where I criticize people. I will state right now that Grand Mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was an asshole, a bigoted racist who admired the Nazi way of dealing with people they despised and wanted permanently removed.

That Orthodox Rabbi on the Chief Rabbinate Council who wants to hang children for the crimes of their father is an asshole, too.

Do you have any proof of that?

Proof I think he’s an asshole or proof he said what he said in the link provided upthread?

 

[Arctish]

You're asking me to prove a negative.

I am asking you to back up your claim with evidence. If you have none, just admit it.

You're asking me to prove the nonexistence of a reasonable offer. How am I supposed to do that??

You are supposed to read the Oslo Accords before you conclude they were not reasonable.

You are supposed to research the negotiations before you conclude they were a sham.

And you’re supposed to know what you’re talking about before you post bare naked assertions.

 

[angelo]

You're asking me to prove the nonexistence of a reasonable offer. How am I supposed to do that??

You are supposed to read the Oslo Accords before you conclude they were not reasonable.

You are supposed to research the negotiations before you conclude they were a sham.

And you’re supposed to know what you’re talking about before you post bare naked assertions.

Do you think the 1 million or so Jews that were expelled from Arab nations in 1948, some who lived in their homes in Arab countrie for generations also deserve compensation?

 

[Arctish]

You're asking me to prove the nonexistence of a reasonable offer. How am I supposed to do that??

You are supposed to read the Oslo Accords before you conclude they were not reasonable.

You are supposed to research the negotiations before you conclude they were a sham.

And you’re supposed to know what you’re talking about before you post bare naked assertions.

Do you think the 1 million or so Jews that were expelled from Arab nations in 1948, some who lived in their homes in Arab countrie for generations also deserve compensation?

YES!

Abso-fucking-lutely!

Ye gads, you guys are dense. What part of the Rights of Refugees do you not understand? The part where Jews don’t have some kind of special status? Is that the part you can’t quite wrap your brain around?

Look, I’m traveling right now and I have no desire to waste time explaining the same things over and over like I was talking to pre-schoolers. I’ll be back in the latter part of the month. Maybe by that time my patience will be renewed and I can walk you through the fundamentals of Human Rights again, starting with the part where everyone has them regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or whatever characteristic bigoted assholes think is determinative.

 

[ZiprHead]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-solar-panels-palestinians-seize-dutch-government-donate-jubbet-al-dhib-area-c-a7820711.html

Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government

The Netherlands has lodged a complaint with the Israeli government after dozens of Dutch solar panels donated to a West Bank village were confiscated by Israeli authorities.

The hybrid diesel and solar power electricity system was installed last year in remote Jubbet al-Dhib, a village home to 150 people in an area of the West Bank occupied by Israel.

The panels were not built with proper permits and permissions, the authorities said, confiscating equipment belonging to the £307,000 humanitarian project last week.