So Bibi Wants To Begin The "Final Solution."

[Arctish]

As I said before. The jews have just as much right if not more to the land than the Arabs. And you also fail to address that prior and latter to Ottomans there were no Palestinians as such!

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-Palestinians-come-from

And you failed to address the fact that the area has been called Palestine since at least the 5th century BCE.

No one cares if each and every state, district, county, and borough between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River was called Palestine at all times throughout all recorded history. The area was generally referred to as Palestine from antiquity through the Crusades and the Byzantine Empire. The three Ottoman sanjaks in the region were collectively called Palestine. The British were given a Mandate to govern Palestine. Even Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, called it Palestine, so enough with the silly word games.

So? What you are not establishing is how the Arabs living there get the unique ownership of "Palestinian".

That is true. I am not establishing how the Arabs get the unique ownership of "Palestinian". I have been posting about Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims, with a brief mention of Palestinians who have other religious beliefs. I have not been posting about Arabs and even if I was, I have been arguing against 'unique ownership' of the term Palestinian, which you would already know if you were reading my posts.

If you're going to base it on ancestry--note that most of them are also immigrants.

Provide evidence in support of this claim if you want anyone to take it seriously. Your ignorance of the history of the region has been thoroughly established, by you, repeatedly.

 

[Arctish]

I gave you two examples of unreasonable proposals (and note that the first one is part of every Palestinian or Arab "peace" proposal), how about addressing them? Neither involves racism or religious bias.

The criticism you offered is nothing but racist, bigoted fear mongering about the character of an entire ethnicity, which you think is reasonable because you're anti-Semitic that way.

Anyway, I was asking angelo. I already know you can't filter out your racism and bigotry. You don't need to keep proving it. .

 

[Ford]

I am not establishing how the Arabs get the unique ownership of "Palestinian". I have been posting about Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims, with a brief mention of Palestinians who have other religious beliefs.

Loren is one of those people who does not believe there's any such thing as a Palestinian or Palestine. To him it's just a part of Israel and always has been.

 

[Arctish]

I am not establishing how the Arabs get the unique ownership of "Palestinian". I have been posting about Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims, with a brief mention of Palestinians who have other religious beliefs.

Loren is one of those people who does not believe there's any such thing as a Palestinian or Palestine. To him it's just a part of Israel and always has been.

Which just goes to show what refusing to learn history leads to.

 

[Derec]

Loren is one of those people who does not believe there's any such thing as a Palestinian or Palestine. To him it's just a part of Israel and always has been.

"Palestine" never existed as a state, only as a geographical region.
"Palestinian" in the contemporary meaning as a quasi-national identity only goes back to the 1960s when it was invented by the PLO.

So, yes, "Palestine" and "Palestinian" as these terms are used today have been invented for the sole purpose of fighting against Israel.

- - - Updated - - -

Which just goes to show what refusing to learn history leads to.

Obviously it leads to the erroneous belief that Palestinians have some sort of historical national identity or that Palestine ever was a state with Jerusalem as the capital. In reality, both these things are fasle.

 

[Arctish]

Loren is one of those people who does not believe there's any such thing as a Palestinian or Palestine. To him it's just a part of Israel and always has been.

"Palestine" never existed as a state, only as a geographical region.
"Palestinian" in the contemporary meaning as a quasi-national identity only goes back to the 1960s when it was invented by the PLO.

So, yes, "Palestine" and "Palestinian" as these terms are used today have been invented for the sole purpose of fighting against Israel.

The members of the Jewish Agency for Palestine would obviously disagree. They frequently spoke of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" as those terms are used today as they prepared to fight to create Israel, decades before the PLO even existed.

Which just goes to show what refusing to learn history leads to.

Obviously it leads to the erroneous belief that Palestinians have some sort of historical national identity or that Palestine ever was a state with Jerusalem as the capital. In reality, both these things are fasle.

I never said it was a state with Jerusalem as the capital. I said the region has been called Palestine from at least the 5th century BCE until the present, and the people living in that region have been commonly referred to as Palestinians for at least 2,000 years.

Is there some new PC term for them that I'm not aware of? You've been calling them Palestinians in your posts for years. Do you call them something else now, and if so, what? Canaanites? Levantinians? I'd hate to commit a social faux pas by using the P-word if it's no longer considered polite.

 

[angelo]

As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, the Jews whose ancestors never left the area certainly can. The Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, the Jews of Ethiopia, and the Jews of Asia, not so much. DNA analysis shows those populations have mixed ancestry, and the further away from Jerusalem they lived, the greater the mix. The people of Palestine have almost no mixed ancestry, therefore they have the strongest ancestral claim.

Anyway, the religious beliefs of people don't define them in any sort of ethnic way, so you can't use religion as the basis for a claim to an ancestral homeland.




Tribal

What sort of currency did they use?

Mostly coins, both locally produced and imported. Apparently they also used tokens during coin shortages or when the currency was fluctuating in value.

What archaeological finds can be attributed to these ancient Palestinians?

Every single one that was built by the indigenous people of Palestine. You might prefer to focus on the ones built by Jehovah worshippers, but worshippers of Ba'al built temples, too. There are archeological finds dating back to 3000 BCE that don't appear to be associated with Judaism at all, although the descendants of the people who built them most likely include a lot of modern Jews.

Stealing others history is easy if telling it to your apologists and naive sheeple! But a true history of a people leaves behind many archeological artifacts as the Jews have in abundance.

There's no such proof of an ancient, in fact, before the 19th century, of a Palestinian nation anywhere in what today constitutes the Land Of Israel!

There is abundant proof of a succession of distinct, historically significant tribal lands, kingdoms, and nations in Palestine from ancient times to the present, only some of which were Hebrew or Judean or Israelite. All you have to do is look for it.

The cities of Nablus, Ramallah, Jerusalem, and Jenin have been continuously inhabited by the indigenous Semitic people for the past 3,000 - 4,000 years. Jericho has been continuously inhabited for at least 6,000 years. There is no question who built those cities or who lived in them. If you think the locals all left when Christianity and Islam arrived, you're completely mistaken. They never left, they just adopted new forms of religious worship and go on with the business of living their ordinary, everyday lives.

Angelo asks good questions. Will he pay attention to the answers?

- - - Updated - - -

As I said before. The jews have just as much right if not more to the land than the Arabs. And you also fail to address that prior and latter to Ottomans there were no Palestinians as such!

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-Palestinians-come-from

Will he pay attention to the answers?

Nope.

So the first Temple or for that matter the second Temple were Palestinian, not Jewish?

 

[angelo]

As I said before. The jews have just as much right if not more to the land than the Arabs. And you also fail to address that prior and latter to Ottomans there were no Palestinians as such!

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-Palestinians-come-from

And you failed to address the fact that the area has been called Palestine since at least the 5th century BCE.

No one cares if each and every state, district, county, and borough between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River was called Palestine at all times throughout all recorded history. The area was generally referred to as Palestine from antiquity through the Crusades and the Byzantine Empire. The three Ottoman sanjaks in the region were collectively called Palestine. The British were given a Mandate to govern Palestine. Even Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, called it Palestine, so enough with the silly word games.

Palestinian Jews have as much right to live in Palestine as Palestinian Christians, Muslims, Druze, Buddhists, Pagans, Taoists, and Raelians. It's a matter of ancestry. They are members of the indigenous population and therefore have an internationally recognized right to live in their homeland. Their religious beliefs don't factor into it.

European Jews want to claim that same right based on the part of their ancestry that comes from the Middle East. That's not an insurmountable problem, but the Zionist insistence that Jews have an exclusive claim is. That's really what all this fuss is about, and that, I believe, is what you're aiming at. You want to deny non-Jews the right to live in their ancestral homeland because they worship a different version of the god of Abraham, or some other god, or no god, but you want to claim you're upholding the rights of the indigenous peoples. You aren't.

ETA: I really like this site: 41 Maps Covering 5,000 Years of History. You can see the rise and fall of kingdoms, tribal alliances, empires, city-states, and other governmental/social arrangements as recorded in the history of the region. I think it's interesting to see how a long inhabited city like Jerusalem changed hands and governments.

I must call out your BS...........................................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 

[ZiprHead]

I must call out your BS...........................................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

I must call out your BS. The state of Palestine and the geographic area called Palestine are two different things. That the geographic area has been known as Palestine for thousands of years cannot be disputed.

 

[Derec]

The members of the Jewish Agency for Palestine would obviously disagree. They frequently spoke of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" as those terms are used today as they prepared to fight to create Israel, decades before the PLO even existed.

Would they? I specifically said "as used today".

I never said it was a state with Jerusalem as the capital.

Maybe you didn't, but it's a common trope of anti-zionist propaganda. They would point to mentions of the word "Palestine" in the past (like Palestine-Australia soccer games in the 1930s ignoring that it was a Jewish team) and pretend that it back then had the same national/state meaning it has today.

I said the region has been called Palestine from at least the 5th century BCE until the present, and the people living in that region have been commonly referred to as Palestinians for at least 2,000 years.

Indeed. As I said before, the word "Palestine" referred to a geographical region, nothing more.

]Is there some new PC term for them that I'm not aware of? You've been calling them Palestinians in your posts for years. Do you call them something else now, and if so, what? Canaanites? Levantinians? I'd hate to commit a social faux pas by using the P-word if it's no longer considered polite.

I am fine with calling them Palestinians as that is what they have been called for decades. However, we need to be aware of the fact that the modern use of the word is discontinuous with the meaning of the word before PLO co-opted the term.

 

[Derec]

must call out your BS. The state of Palestine and the geographic area called Palestine are two different things. ]

Exactly. The anti-Zionist propagandists like to pretend that they are the same thing, so they point to things like sewer covers from the time of Mandatory Palestine to "prove" that the State of Palestine is older than Israel. I shit you not! (no pun intended)

That the geographic area has been known as Palestine for thousands of years cannot be disputed.

Which is probably why the word was culturally appropriated by the Arabs.

 

[Arctish]

As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, the Jews whose ancestors never left the area certainly can. The Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, the Jews of Ethiopia, and the Jews of Asia, not so much. DNA analysis shows those populations have mixed ancestry, and the further away from Jerusalem they lived, the greater the mix. The people of Palestine have almost no mixed ancestry, therefore they have the strongest ancestral claim.

Anyway, the religious beliefs of people don't define them in any sort of ethnic way, so you can't use religion as the basis for a claim to an ancestral homeland.




Tribal



Mostly coins, both locally produced and imported. Apparently they also used tokens during coin shortages or when the currency was fluctuating in value.

What archaeological finds can be attributed to these ancient Palestinians?

Every single one that was built by the indigenous people of Palestine. You might prefer to focus on the ones built by Jehovah worshippers, but worshippers of Ba'al built temples, too. There are archeological finds dating back to 3000 BCE that don't appear to be associated with Judaism at all, although the descendants of the people who built them most likely include a lot of modern Jews.

Stealing others history is easy if telling it to your apologists and naive sheeple! But a true history of a people leaves behind many archeological artifacts as the Jews have in abundance.

There's no such proof of an ancient, in fact, before the 19th century, of a Palestinian nation anywhere in what today constitutes the Land Of Israel!

There is abundant proof of a succession of distinct, historically significant tribal lands, kingdoms, and nations in Palestine from ancient times to the present, only some of which were Hebrew or Judean or Israelite. All you have to do is look for it.

The cities of Nablus, Ramallah, Jerusalem, and Jenin have been continuously inhabited by the indigenous Semitic people for the past 3,000 - 4,000 years. Jericho has been continuously inhabited for at least 6,000 years. There is no question who built those cities or who lived in them. If you think the locals all left when Christianity and Islam arrived, you're completely mistaken. They never left, they just adopted new forms of religious worship and go on with the business of living their ordinary, everyday lives.

Angelo asks good questions. Will he pay attention to the answers?

- - - Updated - - -

As I said before. The jews have just as much right if not more to the land than the Arabs. And you also fail to address that prior and latter to Ottomans there were no Palestinians as such!

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-Palestinians-come-from

Will he pay attention to the answers?

Nope.

So the first Temple or for that matter the second Temple were Palestinian, not Jewish?

Built by and for Jewish Palestinians.

I know, it's confusing. There are a lot of terms that apply.

The first one was built during the reign of King Solomon, a member of the tribe of Judah, in a Judean city, most likely by Judean workers, so you could call it a Judean (Jewish) temple. As a Judean, Solomon was also an Israelite, and Israelites were Hebrews. They were also Canaanites, a term modern archeologists use to indicate the indigenous population of the Levant in ancient times. And of course, that area was and is commonly referred to as Palestine, so you can call them ancient Palestinians. So it was an ancient Palestinian Canaanite Hebrew Israelite Judean temple in the Levant, though I doubt you'd ever use the P-word to describe something associated with Jehovah worshippers.

The Second Temple was built when the Persians ruled the area so I guess under the system of nomenclature Derec uses, it was built by Persians.

 

[Derec]

Built by and for Jewish Palestinians.

Note that the word "Palestine" was first used by the Romans after they crushed the Bar Kochba revolt as a sort of a "fuck you" to the Jews. They renamed demoted province Judea to the subprovince Palestina and renamed Jersualem to Aelia Capitolina. Palestinian Arabs want to do the same - rename Israel to "Palestine" and Jerusalem "Al Quds" ...

The Second Temple was built when the Persians ruled the area so I guess under the system of nomenclature Derec uses, it was built by Persians.

Not really. Persians allowed returnees to rebuild the city walls and the Temple, but that doesn't make the Temple a Persian one. Although one could argue that later Judaism picked up elements from Zoroastrianism due to Persian influence (such as duality and conflict between a good and an evil god).

 

[Arctish]

Built by and for Jewish Palestinians.

Note that the word "Palestine" was first used by the Romans after they crushed the Bar Kochba revolt as a sort of a "fuck you" to the Jews. They renamed demoted province Judea to the subprovince Palestina and renamed Jersualem to Aelia Capitolina. Palestinian Arabs want to do the same - rename Israel to "Palestine" and Jerusalem "Al Quds" ...

I note that you haven't bothered to read any of the links that document the history of the area, and that you failed to use the acronym IMO when you offered an opinion, perhaps in an attempt to have your opinion taken as seriously as the results of historical research done by actual historians.

The Second Temple was built when the Persians ruled the area so I guess under the system of nomenclature Derec uses, it was built by Persians.

Not really. Persians allowed returnees to rebuild the city walls and the Temple, but that doesn't make the Temple a Persian one. Although one could argue that later Judaism picked up elements from Zoroastrianism due to Persian influence (such as duality and conflict between a good and an evil god).

Well then, you'll have to explain the rules of nomenclature you're using. Having one's own independent state is the determining factor, right? Because if you don't have that, then you have to use the ruling government's name, like Persian or Achaemenid or something, right?

 

[angelo]

I must call out your BS...........................................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

I must call out your BS. The state of Palestine and the geographic area called Palestine are two different things. That the geographic area has been known as Palestine for thousands of years cannot be disputed.

That's not in dispute, what is in dispute is that the term " Palestine" meaning Arabs becoming Palestinians only in the 20th century is in dispute.

 

[Arctish]

I must call out your BS...........................................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

I must call out your BS. The state of Palestine and the geographic area called Palestine are two different things. That the geographic area has been known as Palestine for thousands of years cannot be disputed.

That's not in dispute, what is in dispute is that the term " Palestine" meaning Arabs becoming Palestinians only in the 20th century is in dispute.

What proper noun do you think we should use to identify the descendants of Judeans who converted to Christianity and Islam who still live in the area around Jerusalem?

 

[Derec]

It's not Bibi who wants a final solution, it's the Palestinians. For example this one from Gaza.
Gaza ‘March of Return’ activist says Jews will soon be buried in ‘ditches of Hitler’

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's not in dispute, what is in dispute is that the term " Palestine" meaning Arabs becoming Palestinians only in the 20th century is in dispute.

What proper noun do you think we should use to identify the descendants of Judeans who converted to Christianity and Islam who still live in the area around Jerusalem?

The problem here is that by calling them "Palestinians" there is the implicit claim that they are the sole rightful owners of the land. This is rather like the deception that repeatedly occurs in "pro-life" arguments where "human" is used both as "person" and as "of a human" and pretending it's a single meaning. (For example, the reference to a "human" fetus. Correct by the second meaning but then used as support as if it was the first meaning.)

 

[Arctish]

That's not in dispute, what is in dispute is that the term " Palestine" meaning Arabs becoming Palestinians only in the 20th century is in dispute.

What proper noun do you think we should use to identify the descendants of Judeans who converted to Christianity and Islam who still live in the area around Jerusalem?

The problem here is that by calling them "Palestinians" there is the implicit claim that they are the sole rightful owners of the land.

You act like no one ever heard of the Jews of Palestine.

The Palestinian people - of all faiths, and of no faith - are the indigenous people of Palestine, descendants of the ancient Canaanites. Under modern notions of human rights, they have the Right to live in their ancestral homeland. Those same human rights grant others the Right to live in peace wherever they choose, so it isn't an exclusive Right, but it does take precedence if others want to force them out.

This is rather like the deception that repeatedly occurs in "pro-life" arguments where "human" is used both as "person" and as "of a human" and pretending it's a single meaning. (For example, the reference to a "human" fetus. Correct by the second meaning but then used as support as if it was the first meaning.)

I think the problem is that you don't like calling Jews the P-word, even when it clearly applies, and you don't want to admit that people who aren't Jewish have the Right to live in a place you want to make an exclusively Jewish country.

 

[angelo]

That's not in dispute, what is in dispute is that the term " Palestine" meaning Arabs becoming Palestinians only in the 20th century is in dispute.

What proper noun do you think we should use to identify the descendants of Judeans who converted to Christianity and Islam who still live in the area around Jerusalem?

Jews! What else!!