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So much for freedom of thought at universities

She should be there because she is interested in the guy, not because he is paying for her lobster.

What do you think of women like these: Toronto Woman Serial Dates to Get Free Restaurant Meals and Blogs About It
She seems to have the same attitude like you

I.e. she believes her very presence is enough to justify the "price of admission". :banghead:

Derec, do you sign up for some special service that helps you find articles about how women rule the world, take endless advantage of men, get away with murdering them when they are tired of the men and men are just helpless second class citizens?
No, those kinds of stories are quite easy to find, even if they usually get ignored by people who want to insist that women are the oppressed gender in the US no matter what. Anything that doesn't fit that ideological presupposition gets ignored, attacked or ridiculed.

I have found that if you look hard enough for something, you will certainly find it. So, maybe try looking for examples of people being kind to one another.
Discussions in PD are rarely about people being kind to one another. Why should only stories that challenge the feminist orthodoxy be censored?

How do you like to spend your free time when you aren't posting on internet forums and reading articles about how women rule the world?
None of your business! And your ridiculing attitude "... women rule the world" indicates that you don't really want to know but are just seeking for fodder for ridicule.

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Yes, exactly. There seems to be no particular reason for a professor teaching the art and humanities of classical Greece to disrupt the class by citing bogus campus rape statistics.
I doubt very much this professor teaches classical Greek anything since that is a bunch of dead white men.
 
it's difficult to enjoy dating if one is being taken advantage of
It is even more difficult to enjoy dating if one believes that every woman is trying to take advantage of him when she's not. Woman pick up on that sort of attitude and will decline a second date.
 
And because she was interested in the guy before they went on the date, she is now obligated to provide him with sex? Most people date to determine of the level of interest they had in a person initially bears out, and if there are further commonalities that may lead to a relationship.
She shouldn't expect him to pay for her food.

I think guys should be more discriminating, and only ask out women that they think they may have something in common with.
Sure, blame the victim. :rolleyes:
 
it's difficult to enjoy dating if one is being taken advantage of
It is even more difficult to enjoy dating if one believes that every woman is trying to take advantage of him when she's not. Woman pick up on that sort of attitude and will decline a second date.

If a woman goes on a date just because she'll get some free food etc. out of it, then she is definitely taking advantage of the guy.
 
Clearly unlike straight-up prostitution buying a woman a drink or paying for the date is no guarantee of anything. A man may even become victim of one of the mercenary women I posted above who go on dates for the sole purpose of eating free food. But still, if the act of paying for drinks/food successfully leads to sex how is it not "paying for sex"?
Because one has nothing to do with the other. If a man invites a woman out, it should be because he expects to enjoy her company while they are out having dinner, drinks, theater, picnic, whatever. Likewise, if a woman buys a man a drink or invites him out to dinner, it should be because she expects to enjoy his company and not because she views him as some sort of gigolo.

And if the man and woman later mutually decide to have sex, it should be because BOTH of then expect to enjoy each other in bed.

The way you are apparently looking at it, there is no benefit whatsoever for the man in simply enjoying a woman's company without sex; and there is no benefit whatsoever for the woman enjoying sex with a man except for what material gain she gets from it. I can assure you that this attitude is not held by the majority of men or women, and the fact that you do have this attitude is very likely the main reason you admittedly have difficulty "getting laid"

buying a woman a drink at a bar or paying for a date can certainly be understood as a less overt way guys pay for sex.

And how does that refute the idea that men being expected to buy women drinks or pay for dates is a form of less overt paying for sex?
#notallmen&women

What century do you live in :rolleyes:
21st. Gender roles do not change quickly, at least not those that benefit women.
There is no benefit to a woman when a man she accepts a date invitation from views her as a prostitute.
 
It is even more difficult to enjoy dating if one believes that every woman is trying to take advantage of him when she's not. Woman pick up on that sort of attitude and will decline a second date.

If a woman goes on a date just because she'll get some free food etc. out of it, then she is definitely taking advantage of the guy.

You make these blanket statements that portrays all women as prostitutes, then when you got called on it you searched for ONE story you think supports your very sad view of women, then repeat your original broad-brush claims as if you've made any sort of rational argument at all. I will simply note again, it is your attitude about women that is the cause of your dating problems, not women in general.

buying a woman a drink at a bar or paying for a date can certainly be understood as a less overt way guys pay for sex.

And how does that refute the idea that men being expected to buy women drinks or pay for dates is a form of less overt paying for sex?

I will also point out that the woman blogger you point to as your evidence of how all women are prostitutes is - by quotes in the very article you posted - apparently styling herself as the female version of Tucker Max - the guy who got rich and famous for blogging about "endlessly repetitive nights throughout his twenties (he’s 35 now), drinking extreme amounts of alcohol, having utterly drunken, meaningless, uninspired (and uninspiring) sex with a parade of random strangers, acting in a cocky, testosterone-fueled, belligerent way to those who come across his drunken glare, and saying the most insulting, vile, vicious, mean, sexually-degrading things you could possibly imagine to everyone around him, both men and women." (Forbes)
 
Because one has nothing to do with the other. If a man invites a woman out, it should be because he expects to enjoy her company while they are out having dinner, drinks, theater, picnic, whatever. Likewise, if a woman buys a man a drink or invites him out to dinner, it should be because she expects to enjoy his company and not because she views him as some sort of gigolo.
That doesn't address the societal expectation of men having to pay to spend time with women.

And if the man and woman later mutually decide to have sex, it should be because BOTH of then expect to enjoy each other in bed.
But if a man had to put up money to even be in this position than how is that not a form of "paying for sex"?

The way you are apparently looking at it, there is no benefit whatsoever for the man in simply enjoying a woman's company without sex; and there is no benefit whatsoever for the woman enjoying sex with a man except for what material gain she gets from it. I can assure you that this attitude is not held by the majority of men or women, and the fact that you do have this attitude is very likely the main reason you admittedly have difficulty "getting laid"
If two people want to enjoy each other's company then what is the problem with dutching it?

#notallmen&women
Obviously.

There is no benefit to a woman when a man she accepts a date invitation from views her as a prostitute.
Then she should not insist he pay for the privilege of spending time with her.
 
You make these blanket statements that portrays all women as prostitutes,
Nope.

then when you got called on it you searched for ONE story you think supports your very sad view of women, then repeat your original broad-brush claims as if you've made any sort of rational argument at all. I will simply note again, it is your attitude about women that is the cause of your dating problems, not women in general.
That story exemplifies the problem particularly clearly. Also, I gave up on dating a long time ago.
 
That doesn't address the societal expectation of men having to pay to spend time with women.

Except that isn't it.

The man wants to spend time with a woman who is all but a stranger to him. He has no other reason in which to spend time with her privately unless he creates a social situation in which the two can do so.

HE wants to date her. So HE has to make the social event and his own person enticing enough to coax her to attend.

The event and money invested varies.
 
I suspect that men who view buying a woman drinks or paying for the date as a "form of... paying for sex" are the ones not getting laid.

So do you think it doesn't work? Do you think that men who pay for their date's expenses don't have a greater chance of getting laid than those who pay for only themselves? I mean, I have so little experience with mainstream dating that I couldn't say. For me, the hotter question is "If your girlfriend is a prostitute, and she wants both a date at a restaurant and a certain amount of cash, are the restaurant money and the cash simply fungible, such that the amount I spent on her is simply the one plus the other? And how, if at all, does the price of my own meal figure into this accounting? Oh well, at least I know for sure that the restaurant money isn't going to drugs."

So what's the advice here? If I pay for the meal, and get laid, is it an illegitimate "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" inference to think that paying for the meal caused me to get laid? (Remember, sometimes a "post hoc" inference is highly legitimate.) If I don't pay for the meal, and don't get laid, should I infer that paying for the meal might have helped, and try it on the second date? If I pay for the meal, and don't get laid, then I should certainly not treat the woman as the kind of person who just defected on a Prisoner's Dilemma. Rather, I should just realize that while someone may have told me that there's an implicit social contract, the woman doesn't agree with this contract--and never agreed to it. But on the next date, should I only agree to pay my own half? or pay for both, knowing that whatever the advantages of this policy, it's not getting me laid with this woman? Or would it be a good idea to say explicitly "I will pay for both of us if you explicitly agree to sex, and otherwise pay only for myself"? Because, see, I understand the issue well enough that only a prostitute (and perhaps not all of them) would respond to this by agreeing to sex. Even if they like having their meals paid for, and probably even if they like having their meals paid for and also wanted sex enough that, before this indecent offer, they were willing to have sex. So this refutes the idea that it is a social contract.

So if my goal is to have sex, and I would prefer to spend less money rather than more, then I should prefer the outcome where I don't pay for her meal and do get laid. If paying for the meal doesn't affect your chances, then not paying for the meal is a dominant strategy with a strictly higher expected payoff. When people like you make the argument you're making, they never say women really do have sex approximately as often (or less) men who pay as with those who don't, and I'm not sure whether they mean to imply that this is the case. Or maybe they imply that they personally would make the decision with indifference to whether the man paid, but who knows about women in general? Now, if it is the case that paying for the meal increases your chances--without being a necessary or sufficient condition--then it is inaccurate to tell men that it doesn't. Especially if the truth of the matter is that it's a necessary but not sufficient condition, if a man has zero chance of getting laid if he doesn't pay, but a 50% chance if he does, and he has no cause for outrage on the other 50% when he doesn't get laid.

See, I don't mind a social contract in which the sex decision is made independently of anything the man may have paid for...although, if that system gives me an extremely low chance of getting laid, and another system (prostitution) gives me a higher chance, then maybe I would prefer to explicitly negotiate the alternative system. And on a date, I have to make the decision about whether to pay, so I'd like to know if I should be factoring in the expectation of sex when making the decision.

One of the problems of mismatched expectations is this: Suppose that the truth of the matter is that a woman's preferences go like this: Paid-for meal + sex > no paid-for meal or sex > no paid-for meal, but sex. And once the man has refrained from paying, the best she can do is to refrain from having sex. Even though both the man and the woman viewed (paid-for meal + sex) as the optimum. But the man, who didn't like the outcome (paid-for meal, but no sex), let this worry keep him from paying for the meal. And the reason is that someone told him that paying for the meal wouldn't help him get to an outcome that he does like. The woman wasn't honest enough to admit her true preferences and correct him.

Again, if your honest assessment is that a man who doesn't pay for his date's meal has approximately the same chance as one who does, then by all means say this clearly, and I'll decide if I think you know what you're talking about. And if you mean only that a system where women are expected to put out for a paying man is undesirable, then let's stick to prescriptive claims: that women shouldn't have sex more for a man who paid than for one who didn't, that they should clarify that this is their personal policy when the subject comes up, and...what are the prescriptions for men whose goals are to support the best possible social contract and also to get laid? Obviously, they shouldn't be outraged at the woman if they pay for the meal and don't get laid, but do they have to be happy about it? Should they try to figure out if paying increases their chances, and pay for meals if they think it does increase their chances? Or do you advocate some "moral high ground" where paying for the meals basically taints the woman's decision, and the man should always forbear even if, given the behavior of women in a currently existing society, he would have a better chance of getting laid if he did pay?

So yes, I am one of the men not getting laid by non-prostitutes. And as I said, I don't think that there is an implicit (much less an explicit) social contract where paying for meals is one side of the bargain, and having sex is the other. On the other hand, I am a little unclear on exactly what this view should be replaced with. When men engage in the extremely common practice of paying for their dates' meals, do they mostly believe that there is such a social contract? Do most women believe this? (And if both parties believe that such a social contract is real, then we would have to say that it is real, descriptively, even if it shouldn't be.) On the other hand, if men are paying for their dates' meals for some other reason, then what is that reason? And why isn't it just as common for a dinner between two same-sex friends to have one party consistently paying for the other person's expenses as well as his/her own? And is this reason, unaccompanied by the hope of increasing your chances for sex, a good enough reason to justify the higher expense?
 
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That doesn't address the societal expectation of men having to pay to spend time with women.
This "social expectation" is in your own mind.

Really? It's such a pervasive societal expectation that it even made its way into a "Most Interesting Man" commercial!


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Except that isn't it.
You say that it isn't, yet ...

The man wants to spend time with a woman who is all but a stranger to him. He has no other reason in which to spend time with her privately unless he creates a social situation in which the two can do so.

HE wants to date her. So HE has to make the social event and his own person enticing enough to coax her to attend.

The event and money invested varies.
You explain why it is. Or am I misunderstanding something?
 
yes, that is exactly what you have been saying over and over. If that is not what you mean, you need to examine your own choice of words and attitude.

then when you got called on it you searched for ONE story you think supports your very sad view of women, then repeat your original broad-brush claims as if you've made any sort of rational argument at all. I will simply note again, it is your attitude about women that is the cause of your dating problems, not women in general.
That story exemplifies the problem particularly clearly.
No, it really doesn't. One woman who is apparently trying to create a writing career out of being outrageous in the same way that Tucker Max and various PUA males did it does not say anything whatsoever about a "problem" that exists only in your own mind.

Also, I gave up on dating a long time ago.
clearly, which is why you should not make assumptions about the "dating scene" that you choose not to participate in.
 
That doesn't address the societal expectation of men having to pay to spend time with women.

Except that isn't it.

The man wants to spend time with a woman who is all but a stranger to him. He has no other reason in which to spend time with her privately unless he creates a social situation in which the two can do so.

HE wants to date her. So HE has to make the social event and his own person enticing enough to coax her to attend.

The event and money invested varies.

Actually, this makes plenty of sense. As long as the woman is "all but a stranger," and therefore we're ruling out a male and female friend who begin dating. (And I don't know that much about mainstream dating, but my impression is that the "man pays" arrangement is also common, even if not quite as much so, when the relationship did begin between friends.) I just have to ask, why is the arrangement so common, and why is the paying party is far more likely to be the man? Would this still be the case if the men weren't hoping for sex, if they really were just happy with the woman's company and feel that paying for two meals is worth it? Maybe they would, but I just think we should all be clear that your formulation implies this.

It also means that the women are still prostitutes, even though now they're "platonic prostitutes" rather than the sexual kind. Prostitution is not just about providing a hole for the client to stick it, but quite often about providing an enjoyable companion in addition to the more fleshly pleasures. And it sometimes happens--far from the majority, but sometimes, that a client will pay a prostitute, and not expect anything that could be termed "sexual," but he certainly was paying for this kind of enjoyable companion. And the real fundamental difference, in an economic transaction with money, between the party who pays and the party who is paid for is precisely that the paying party is expecting some benefit. In short, your formulation really does imply that, given the morality of the work ethic, the women should be extra careful, more so than the men, to make sure that they are an enjoyable companion, and the men are right to feel cheated if the woman was obviously not working hard at being pleasant. (Yes, the man should be pleasant too. It's just that if the ideal is equal responsibility, and the man is expected to pay, then there must be some other responsibility, somewhere.) Or maybe the men are just paying through tradition--but if that's the case, we have to start asking whether this tradition does any good. Again, your account of how the tradition might do some good is plausible, but I'm not sure whether it really is an improvement over the "sex for a meal" interpretation. Not an improvement for the man, if his goal was sex, and not an improvement for the woman, if she has high standards for what constitutes an equal relationship.
 
Here is what "Ask Men" says:

In the beginning, there was man; similarly, in the beginning of the relationship, it is the man who pays. The first two months provide guys the opportunity to prove they’re solvent, capable and understand the social conventions of dating — and all are three important qualities ladies will be looking for in a date. During this time, as you pursue the relationship, you’ll be the one initiating the majority of the dates (if she’s a “keeper,” you should be initiating almost all of them), thus making it your duty to pick up the tab. Please note that nowhere is this more crucial than on the first date; regardless of the situation (she asks you, she insists on chipping in, you’re in purgatory), a true gentleman will unfailingly pay for the first date — it’s the honorable thing to do.
First date aside, though, men shouldn’t expect to pay for every date during the first two months. On those occasions when the lady instigates the meeting, the guy should allow her to pick up the tab. Even playfully suggesting that she catch “this one” falls well within the range of acceptable behavior, especially when she’s extended the invitation. In fact, feel empowered to make this move, which will convey to her that you’re not planning on paying for everything.

But, if she’s a quality girl, you can expect she’ll grab the check when it arrives — and let her. This move on her part sends two important messages: a sign of respect to you and a statement of equality for her. So, allow her to pay when she initiates the date. Conversely, during these early stages, keep in mind that if she never makes the gesture to reciprocate — especially on those dates she initiated — chances are she never will.
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/190_dating_advice.html

Here's what "Your Tango" says:
He asks, he OR she pays. The one traditional dating "do" that still stands is the general belief men are supposed to make the first move. However, Match.com found 41% of women would offer to pick up the check on a first date. You hear that guys? If you ask us out for dinner,we might just foot the bill. Sounds like a win-win to us.

Dating Websites.com:
The issue of who should pay on the date has created a lot of confusion over the years. This is a very gray topic, but some general rules of thumb can be followed. Men have always been expected to pay in the past, but the rules have changed as women strive for equality. Classic chivalry is by no means an antiquated notion, but today it is good practice that whoever asked the other out should pay. Furthermore, if a woman finds she has no romantic interest in the other person she should offer to pay for her portion.
The problem lies in the perception we create. If a woman ignores the bill altogether, she may give off a false sense of entitlement which could upset the man. On the other hand, a woman who tries to pay the bill could appear pushy or overly feministic. Unfortunately, no two people are alike and everyone has different expectations when it comes to who pays on a date.
One good approach is to bring the topic up after the first or second date. If the man has been paying, he could indicate his fear of being too presumptuous and domineering by automatically paying every bill. A woman could explain that she appreciates the man's desire to treat her, but it is important to her to also contribute. No matter what your situation, don't expect or demand anything. Remember that your date's actions are probably the result of a lot of nervous deliberation and should not necessarily be taken too seriously; give them the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.bestdatingwebsites.net/advice/etiquette/

another article - 8 men, most say they won't let the woman pay (unless he's already decided he won't date her again) but two men noted that the women they asked out paid for the dates. http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/should-women-offer-pay-date-8-men-weigh

And apparently I asked the wrong person what century he lives in, since I agree with Emily Post:
According to the eighteenth edition of Emily Post’s Etiquette, the rule is “for a first date at least, the person who asks should pay unless both parties agree in advance to share expenses.”
Very simple
 
You just love to insult people different from you, don't you?

If someone followed the ideal "Insult people if and only if it does some good," then insults would be much rarer than they are. On the other hand, if the fact that the insulter likes insulting people counts as "doing some good," then probably it would allow the vast majority of the insults that take place.
 
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