South Carolina Flag Debate

[maxparrish]

Was the Swedish flag originally created specifically to represent a desire to rape and pillage people because of their race, and thus war with anyone who tried to stop from from doing that? Because the Confederate flag was. ... Any honoring of the Confederacy or the South's efforts in the Civil War inherently honors those foundational racist, pro-slavery motives.

This is one time where the analogy to Nazi's is perfectly apt, and it is equal to flying a Nazi flag, and all the same bullshit excuses that racist give for flying it can be equally given for both.

There is a similarity, but it is far from 'perfectly apt'. The German nation flags were replaced by the Nazi German nation flags, solely to signify that the same German nation-state was bound to a new totalitarian ideology. The national identity did not change, but the flag was created to express a new political-moral values system imposed on the same people.

The original flags of the confederacy were to identify a successionism, the creation of a NEW nation; a new regional identity committed to a confederation, states rights, and a tolerance of slavery. A 'new people' with the same old political-moral values need a flag to convey the new political separatism. EG:

And the "controversy" (lame hysteria) is over the most popular flag of the confederacy, that of the stars and bars battle flag of the Northern Army of Virginia. A flag used for military unit identity, not at all similar to the original secessionist flag of the CSA. But it's popular motif was latter added as elements to other (later) CSA national and State flags. So what did that flag convey?

A Southerner does not have to be directly trying to say "Fuck Niggers!" every time they fly it.

Really? Wiki:

...Regiments carried flags to help commanders observe and assess battles in the warfare of the era. At a distance, the two national flags were hard to tell apart.^[22] In addition, Confederate regiments carried many other flags, which added to the possibility of confusion. After the battle, General P. G. T. Beauregard wrote that he was "resolved then to have [our flag] changed if possible, or to adopt for my command a 'Battle flag', which would be Entirely different from any State or Federal flag."^[15]

The Northern Virginia battle flag had more than one purpose, but I don't believe it said "Fuck Niggers" every time they flew it.

...Since then, both flags have been used regularly to deliberately repeat this original sentiment. Thus, that is what both flags inherently convey, just as much as the words "Fuck you Nigger" convey it. A person too stupid to grasp language might claim they don't mean to convey that idea when they say those words, but it is an objective fact that they are conveying it to all those not as ignorant. Also, it is simply too implausible that any Southerner older than 10 is not aware that this is what it conveys.

Well, surely any person older than fourteen also knows that the flag is often flown on the same flag poles with that of the war's victor - the US Flag.

So then are we to suppose that these folks are conveying two opposite beliefs, that of representing mutual support of pro and anti-slavery ('fuck nigger') by the same folks? That does not make much sense, does it?

What does make sense is that it still represents a regional identity, that of "the south". For such folk, the flag is no more than a sense of belonging to a current culture, and statement of pride in that culture. And for those who know its origins as a battle flag, it may add a dash of romance for a rebellious past.

Thus, no matter their other supposed intentions, any one that displays it is at minimum doing so without any regard for the fact that they are endorsing and honoring racists and the symbol of pro-slavery they created. That at least requires the attitude that slavery was no big deal and a lack of any empathy for those who suffered from it. I think it is psychologically implausible that those qualities would exist who isn't a rather strong racist themselves, even if they are not intentionally declaring that racism by displaying that flag.

In sum, the flag must go, and anyone that displays it should be inferred to be a racist with an ugly and disturbing lack of concern about honoring (intentionally or otherwise) the pro-slavery history of the Confederacy and that symbol.

Such nonsense. There are only TWO factions that saw the stars and bars that insisted it become a declaration of racism: the racial grievance mongers of the left rousers, and the actual ideological racists in the KKK and their ilk. These two grievance groups would luv to make it into something to be either banned or rallied around.

For the vast majority it's representation has been far more mundane, and quaint. Unless you think the Duke's of Hazzard producers were fighting some kind of ideological war, my suggestion is to get over it.

 

[laughing dog]

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" or the ignorance (willful or otherwise) of their current proponents, those flags are a symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems or plain ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder what would happen if someone replaced all the targets at a gun range down there with confederate flags....

 

[zorq]

Such nonsense. There are only TWO factions that saw the stars and bars that insisted it become a declaration of racism: the racial grievance mongers of the left rousers, and the actual ideological racists in the KKK and their ilk. These two grievance groups would luv to make it into something to be either banned or rallied around.

For the vast majority it's representation has been far more mundane, and quaint. Unless you think the Duke's of Hazzard producers were fighting some kind of ideological war, my suggestion is to get over it.

I think the Duke's of Hazzard producers wanted to give their show some authenticity, I don't think it has anything to do with ideological wars. The characters on the show were meant to be rebels and the Confederate flag represents rebellion. Unfortunately that particular rebellion that the Southern flag represents was a rebellion for the right to enslave a race of people they considered inferior. It is and always has been a flag flown by racists.

BTW the Confederate flag was widely adopted in the 1960's across the South as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement and the removal of Jim Crow laws. Pictures from that period are widely available on the internet.

 

[Togo]

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" or the ignorance (willful or otherwise) of their current proponents, those flags are a symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems or plain ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

By that argument...

The US flag was made and flown by Revolutionaries who kept and owned large numbers of slaves, despite discussions at the time that this was in contradiction of their revolutionary ideology. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" of the USA, or the ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of their current proponents, that flag is the symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems, or plan ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

.. so, take down both flags?

 

[RavenSky]

Regardless what anyone wants to pretend the flag represents, what it does NOT represent is the state nor the nation, and as such has no place being flown by the state itself.

 

[laughing dog]

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" or the ignorance (willful or otherwise) of their current proponents, those flags are a symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems or plain ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

By that argument...

The US flag was made and flown by Revolutionaries who kept and owned large numbers of slaves, despite discussions at the time that this was in contradiction of their revolutionary ideology. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" of the USA, or the ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of their current proponents, that flag is the symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems, or plan ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

True, but there is a major difference: the Confederate flag was the symbol of the side that wanted to keep slavery and the Union (and now US flag) was the symbol of the side that wanted to get rid of it. And as zorq pointed out, the Confederate flag also was used as a symbol against the civil rights movement. So those differences makes render your argument unconvincing.

.. so, take down both flags?

Makes no difference to me.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And the backlash towards the Confederacy intensifies:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/poli...itol-lose-the-jefferson-davis-statue-20150623
"Mitch McConnell to Kentucky Capitol: Lose the Jefferson Davis Statue"

http://www.startribune.com/lake-calhoun-name-change-gets-another-look-in-minneapolis/309249161/
"The perennial question of renaming Lake Calhoun has been revived"

And I almost clicked on a Stormf. link bringing you this information.

 

[maxparrish]

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" or the ignorance (willful or otherwise) of their current proponents, those flags are a symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems or plain ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

By that argument...

The US flag was made and flown by Revolutionaries who kept and owned large numbers of slaves, despite discussions at the time that this was in contradiction of their revolutionary ideology. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" of the USA, or the ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of their current proponents, that flag is the symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems, or plan ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

.. so, take down both flags?

Good point...and as noted earlier, both flags are usually flown on the same flagpole by said "racist" individuals. Yep, time to remove both flags...correct?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

A Southerner does not have to be directly trying to say "Fuck Niggers!" every time they fly it.

Really? Wiki:

...Regiments carried flags to help commanders observe and assess battles in the warfare of the era. At a distance, the two national flags were hard to tell apart.^[22] In addition, Confederate regiments carried many other flags, which added to the possibility of confusion. After the battle, General P. G. T. Beauregard wrote that he was "resolved then to have [our flag] changed if possible, or to adopt for my command a 'Battle flag', which would be Entirely different from any State or Federal flag."^[15]

The Northern Virginia battle flag had more than one purpose, but I don't believe it said "Fuck Niggers" every time they flew it.

"Fuck Lincoln, I'm keeping my slaves" was effectively the South's reason for starting the war. Those who fought the war in pursuit of that oh-so-noble goal were essentially saying "Fuck you Lincoln and fuck you niggers" with every shot fired, every step marched, every inch of Union territory captured and every second that the Confederate States of America was allowed to exist.

"We think enslaving black people is a really good idea and the Union doesn't" was the Confederacy's sole reason to exist. When one fights a war with the intention of creating that country, every action OF that war -- including the displaying of that country's battle flag -- translates to roughly "Fuck niggers."

Well, surely any person older than fourteen also knows that the flag is often flown on the same flag poles with that of the war's victor - the US Flag.

Depends on how you define "often." I've seen the Confederate battle flag displayed prominent several dozen times in my life, but I've seen it share a pole with the U.S. flag only once.

But please, tell me more about how I'm only 13 and my experience is invalid.

Such nonsense. There are only TWO factions that saw the stars and bars that insisted it become a declaration of racism: the racial grievance mongers of the left rousers, and the actual ideological racists in the KKK and their ilk.

Because opposing the government's displaying of a symbol that has been adopted by a white supremacist terrorist organization is "racial grievance mongering" apparently.

I suppose those cheerful people who planted a firey cross on my lawn twelve years ago were just a bunch of methodists welcoming me to the neighborhood and I'm just "racial grievance mongering" for assuming that it was a racist gesture. Then again, the people who did it were flying Confederate battle flags at the time, so...

 

[laughing dog]

By that argument...

The US flag was made and flown by Revolutionaries who kept and owned large numbers of slaves, despite discussions at the time that this was in contradiction of their revolutionary ideology. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" of the USA, or the ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of their current proponents, that flag is the symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems, or plan ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

.. so, take down both flags?

Good point...and as noted earlier, both flags are usually flown on the same flagpole by said "racist" individuals. Yep, time to remove both flags...correct?

There is a clear and logical difference between a symbol of racism (the Confederate flag) and the intentions of the flyer of the flag. The fact that someone who flies a Confederate flag is not a racist does not negate the racist symbolism of the flag.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

"We think enslaving black people is a really good idea and the Union doesn't" was the Confederacy's sole reason to exist.

I really don't think this is true, and think you are embarking on some revisionist history here. Slavery and racist were certainly a big part of why the south fought the civil war, but I think there was more to it than just that. They wanted independence. They were not too removed from the revolutionary war, and this was to a lot of them very much more of the same. They had a distant power trying to tell them what they can and can not do, and no that wasn't just about keeping slaves.

You in the USA treat your poor pretty badly, granted not on the level of slavery, but pretty badly. No universal health care. The 0.01% own so much and the 99.9% so little. Your government with the gerrymandering and other problems appears corrupt and hurtful to your people. But if a foregin power dwarfed you in power (maybe an alien invasion or something?) were to declare war on you and attack you, you may just band together under a flag we all see to represent all these negative things about the United States, for the sake of your group (tribalism comes into play here), banding against that foreign power that wants to control you.

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery.

This I can agree with.

 

[dystopian]

I really don't think this is true, and think you are embarking on some revisionist history here. Slavery and racist were certainly a big part of why the south fought the civil war, but I think there was more to it than just that. They wanted independence. They were not too removed from the revolutionary war, and this was to a lot of them very much more of the same. They had a distant power trying to tell them what they can and can not do, and no that wasn't just about keeping slaves.

What other things was Washington telling them they could and couldn't do, and why do you think that these things weighed anywhere remotely as much as slavery in their decision to secede?

 

[maxparrish]

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" or the ignorance (willful or otherwise) of their current proponents, those flags are a symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems or plain ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

The battle flag was made by people who wanted to confederate, and needed a symbol of the confederation of a people with a different national identity. Yes, they wished to tolerate slavery (for various reasons), so then it, among other things, the flag represented this tolerance. What caused them to adopt this view (racism) was not unique to the South, nor was a sufficient and exclusive condition.

Yes, there is a chain of causes for any viewpoint - slavery was made possible by racism, racism was made possible by economic insecurity, etc. But the flag did not represent the contributing causes (which existed in all societies of the era), it represented (at most) the distinctive RESULT in the political views of a new people.

Few (if any) who fly the Confederate flag today are expressing their belief in slavery; although the judgement porn addicts of the left wish it so.

 

[laughing dog]

The battle flag was made by people who wanted to confederate, and needed a symbol of the confederation of a people with a different national identity. Yes, they wished to tolerate slavery (for various reasons), so then it, among other things, the flag represented this tolerance. What caused them to adopt this view (racism) was not unique to the South, nor was a sufficient and exclusive condition.

Yes, there is a chain of causes for any viewpoint - slavery was made possible by racism, racism was made possible by economic insecurity, etc. But the flag did not represent the contributing causes (which existed in all societies of the era), it represented (at most) the distinctive political views of a new people.

Few (if any) who fly the Confederate flag today are expressing their belief in slavery; although the judgement porn addicts of the left wish it so.

Which included "tolerance of slavery". So, yes, it does represent a symbol of racism. It may not be exclusively a racist symbol, but it is a symbol of a racist culture and past. Hence the intentions of the flag wavers are irrelevant.

I don't think people who present the Confederate flag are necessarily racists or intend to send implicit racist messages. But that doesn't mean that flag is not a clear and understandable symbol of racism to many people. And while I can appreciate a certain level of obstinacy to forced change from perceived outsiders on the part of pro-Confederate flag wearers and wavers, at some point, the resistance looks much more like pure dickishness when "insiders" also push for this change.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You have to keep in mind that the USA was envisioned originally as a loose confederation of states and states rights were very important to many, especially in the shadow of having succeeded from England. This was a war over self determination as much as it was a war over slavery. And if you look into the reasons the north fought the war, you'll find it was mostly to keep the union together and to tighten central control and build towards a strong and united power this side of the Atlantic. Manifest Destiny was the buzzword. Seen from that angle, Canada had fought the same war against the same aggressor in 1812. Having failed to conquer Canada and bring the north of the continent under their power, the US now faced a threat of falling apart in the south. Manifest Destiny was crumbling, and that was a big deal and something the north fought hard over. This wasn't all about slavery.

 

[maxparrish]

The battle flag was made by people who wanted to confederate, and needed a symbol of the confederation of a people with a different national identity. Yes, they wished to tolerate slavery (for various reasons), so then it, among other things, the flag represented this tolerance. What caused them to adopt this view (racism) was not unique to the South, nor was a sufficient and exclusive condition.

Yes, there is a chain of causes for any viewpoint - slavery was made possible by racism, racism was made possible by economic insecurity, etc. But the flag did not represent the contributing causes (which existed in all societies of the era), it represented (at most) the distinctive political views of a new people.

Which included "tolerance of slavery". So, yes, it does represent a symbol of racism. It may not be exclusively a racist symbol, but it is a symbol of a racist culture and past.

By what criteria does it represent racism? Not by distinctiveness of racism, because almost all societies were racist in the 19th century. Not by the "causes" of racism, because almost all societies were economically insecure and threatened by 'the other'.

What the flag was intended to symbolize was what made the South different from the North in its identity: state's rights, local rule, and the economic importance acceptance of slavery as a institution. Racism and economic insecurity did not make it distinct. (And arguably, racism is not a cause of slavery, its a rationalization to protect economic needs).

In short: no union solider on the battlefield said "Look, there is the flag of those racists - go get em boys".

 

[ksen]

The confederate battle flag is a symbol of traitors and enemies of the constitution. It has no business flying over any government building.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You have to keep in mind that the USA was envisioned originally as a loose confederation of states and states rights were very important to many, especially in the shadow of having succeeded from England. This was a war over self determination as much as it was a war over slavery. And if you look into the reasons the north fought the war, you'll find it was mostly to keep the union together and to tighten central control and build towards a strong and united power this side of the Atlantic. Manifest Destiny was the buzzword. Seen from that angle, Canada had fought the same war against the same aggressor in 1812. Having failed to conquer Canada and bring the north of the continent under their power, the US now faced a threat of falling apart in the south. Manifest Destiny was crumbling, and that was a big deal and something the north fought hard over. This wasn't all about slavery.

You may want to tell that to the people who started the Civil War. They explicitly referred to themselves as the Slaveholding States and they were very clear, specific and straightforward about the fact that slavery was the reason that they were doing it. They really didn't feel the need to pretend that there were other reasons for it and it's only the revisionist historians who came in later generations who decided that there were two reasons.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

An excellent article from the author of Confederates in the Attic, an excellent book.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/how-south-lost-the-civil-war-won-narrative-confederate-flag

I have a box in my office filled with hate. It contains bumper stickers, literature and t-shirts I collected while researching Confederates in the Attic, a book about Civil War memory in the South.

“Coon-ard Lines: Boat Ticket to AFRICA,” reads one '90s-era item I picked up at a store selling rebel-themed souvenirs. “This ONE-WAY ticket entitles ONE nigger” to passage to Africa, as well as “axel-grease for hair,” “chicken coop and watermelon patch on deck” and “crack and other refreshments.” (A similar version is pictured below.)