Stephon Clark killed by Sacramento police - he was in his own family's backyard

[Derec]

In other words, your position is that poor people don't deserve nice things... not even as gifts.

There is having nice things and then there are headphones for several hundred dollars.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Of course he's assuming that. The man was black. Oh, I'm sorry, in LorenSpeak, he was "A Black."
Therefore, in LorenLand, he is probably guilty, probably violent and certainly not deserving of due process because his death is already known to be a Good Shoot™

He was convicted of armed robbery and domestic violence, which are armed crimes.
Let's not forget those facts when we listen to CNN harp on about how great a guy "Zoe" was and how he was just minding his business, taking non-existent shortcuts etc.

I think these are decent points but let's not blow them out of proportion, like you're doing.

So, first, yes, he was a criminal. His conviction of armed robbery, though, included a year stint working for a sheriff. Wth is that? This sounds a like he was nailed for some technicality, like he happened to have a knife in his pocket when he stole a bag of potato chips or something...kind of like how you like to complain about certain statutory crimes. The other--the domestic violence--appears to be him pimp-slapping someone, which while I think is not great, it's apparently a thing that some people think is necessary to deliver illegal "services" to illegal johns, like YOU. So, basically, you and he had a lot in common, he was a petty criminal like you, not a seriously violent offender. If you were shot by police after running away from an illegal hookup, you'd think it was unfair, too. Moreover, the police had no idea about this and the calls about what he was allegedly doing could easily have been mistaken. When police take valid the interpretations of 911 calls and use such information to shoot people when not necessary, they become a de facto judge, jury, and executioner which they are not supposed to be.

I know this is difficult for you to have any empathy, but again imagine yourself in a similar situation, one of the pimps you use, pimp-slapped a lady, you were flashing your phone about, and then you had an illegal hookup, but meanwhile you didn't know that someone called the police claiming you and your fellow were abusing a lady and that you were flashing around a gun. Police show up in the area and you leave to avoid them. Meanwhile, a helicopter has been tracking you and you thought they were just flying up there for no real reason regarding you. The police show up and shoot you saying they thought your phone was a gun. Would you really think you deserved all that? The whole magnitude of craziness? Again, that shouldn't be occurring in a society with our liberal values.

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I was very poor growing up. We were homeless a few times but most of the time lived in apartments. The refrigerator was often nearly empty. [We often had a fridge, stove, and heater due to assistance though Ronnie Raygun tore into the money so we lacked food]. I often lived on bread and mayonnaise sandwiches when I was 10. I was often malnutritioned. One of the best programs ever we took part in was WIC. Cheese, glorious cheese! Many Christmasses my Aunt gave me gifts. Her economic status could be described as middle-class. If someone were to judge us on appliances or gifts we could have received I don't think that would be most representative of either our non-wealth status or our constant lack of nutrition.

But were you buying Beats by Dr. Dre headphones for $200-$300 dollars?

Different decade and culture means you'd have to change the amount and the music. So my sister stole some records (I think maybe). I had somehow acquired a TS1000 which was probably like $100.

 

[Derec]

You don't think people who are poor in America can't have nice things and still be poor?

Often, poor people stay poor because they live beyond their means.

For all you know those headphones could have been a gift from someone more well off. For all you know he could have won them from a contest of some sort.

That's possible, but is it probable? Of course, given the line of work his brother was in, maybe they were "hot".

You know far less than you might like to imagine Derec. Far far less.

Possibly, but I still know orders of magnitude more than you.

 

[LordKiran]

Often, poor people stay poor because they live beyond their means. [1]


That's possible, but is it probable? Of course, given the line of work his brother was in, maybe they were "hot". [2]

You know far less than you might like to imagine Derec. Far far less.

Possibly, but I still know orders of magnitude more than you.[3]

1. Care to substantiate that with some data? I note your purposefully vague qualifier. "Often" is the sort of thing you say when you have no idea how prevalent something is and so you need to hedge your bets, which signals to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

2. Whether or not something is probable is entirely beside the point. The point is you don't know, so why act like you do?

3. Potentially, but that doesn't impact the point I'm making with regards to your own self-assuredness.

 

[Derec]

I think these are decent points but let's not blow them out of proportion, like you're doing.

Am I?

So, first, yes, he was a criminal. His conviction of armed robbery, though, included a year stint working for a sheriff. Wth is that? This sounds a like he was nailed for some technicality, like he happened to have a knife in his pocket when he stole a bag of potato chips or something...

You don't know what he stole or what the circumstances were. Yes, he got a sweetheart deal, but we do not know why.
What we do know is that it wasn't his first thievery type crime. When he was 16, he had robbery, grand theft and receiving stolen property on his record.

kind of like how you like to complain about certain statutory crimes.

Yeah, funny how California is all strict on consensual sex between 18 and 17 year olds and enforces anti sex-work laws aggressively but at the same time is lenient on armed robbery. Misplaced priorities, but I digress.

The other--the domestic violence--appears to be him pimp-slapping someone, which while I think is not great, it's apparently a thing that some people think is necessary to deliver illegal "services" to illegal johns, like YOU.

I have seen no indication that his domestic violence charges were related to his pimping arrest, which I agree is a bit iffy.

So, basically, you and he had a lot in common, he was a petty criminal like you, not a seriously violent offender.

Bullshit. Armed robbery and domestic violence are not at all comparable to violating unconstitutional laws against sleeping with hookers.

If you were shot by police after running away from an illegal hookup, you'd think it was unfair, too. Moreover, the police had no idea about this and the calls about what he was allegedly doing could easily have been mistaken. When police take valid the interpretations of 911 calls and use such information to shoot people when not necessary, they become a de facto judge, jury, and executioner which they are not supposed to be.

Running from police always carries some risks. Especially when you turn around and come at them. And it is very unlikely that police were mistaken, given his record for theft and robbery.

I know this is difficult for you to have any empathy, but again imagine yourself in a similar situation

Difficult to do, despite your vivid albeit unrealistic scenario. Again, if you run form police you escalate the situation. And then any perceived act of aggression, like having an object, turning toward them etc. can be deadly. Best not to run.

Different decade and culture means you'd have to change the amount and the music. So my sister stole some records (I think maybe). I had somehow acquired a TS1000 which was probably like $100.

Well a computer does a bit more than a pair of headphones, that pretty much do what a pair of $10 headphones does as well. So not a good comparison.

 

[Emily Lake]

Gun safety 101: If someone is pointing a gun at you, make no sudden movements unless you have determined that your best chance is to go for a disarm.

Dahell man, do you even own a gun? NEVER go for a disarm. That's just dumb.

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Being followed by a whirlybird makes it extremely likely that it's the police.

Food for thought, the helicopter was using infrared. There was no spotlight. How exactly do you presume that he knew he was being followed by a helicopter? Do you assume that you're being followed every time you hear a helicopter?

 

[Emily Lake]

If you're poor and economically sensible and somehow come to own a luxury good like this there's e-Bay or even Craigslist.

Wow. I mean, I just really don't have words for this. If you're poor and someone gives you a nice thing that you actually enjoy and would get use out of... you should be expected to sell it cheap... Why? I'm kind of getting the sense it's so that your betters don't think you're acting above your station or something. I mean, seriously, that's some strangely classist stuff you just said. And I'm a proponent of a mostly free market!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your approach works only if they have containment. In this sort of case a stand back approach could easily turn into a hostage situation.

Didn’t know it was possible, but my eyeballs just barfed.

Then get some better eyeballs.

Trying containment on a suspect when there are innocents within the containment is just asking for them to take those innocents hostage. It's not liberal fantasyland where better thought on the part of those with the power will always produce a good answer. Reality is full of choices with no good option.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you're poor and economically sensible and somehow come to own a luxury good like this there's e-Bay or even Craigslist.

In other words, your position is that poor people don't deserve nice things... not even as gifts.

Fuck that disgusting shit.

Essentials before luxuries. You are asserting these are people without enough for the essentials. When they put money (or, in the case of a gift, fail to redeem) money to luxuries they are making themselves worse off.

 

[RavenSky]

You should have made a thread about that case instead.

There was a thread about it at the time.

But if you are a human working as a police officer you do a lot of profiling and act according to that. And it's unfortunate but blacks do not have favorable profiles.

So your position is that police should be racists.

 

[RavenSky]

I was very poor growing up. We were homeless a few times but most of the time lived in apartments. The refrigerator was often nearly empty. [We often had a fridge, stove, and heater due to assistance though Ronnie Raygun tore into the money so we lacked food]. I often lived on bread and mayonnaise sandwiches when I was 10. I was often malnutritioned. One of the best programs ever we took part in was WIC. Cheese, glorious cheese! Many Christmasses my Aunt gave me gifts. Her economic status could be described as middle-class. If someone were to judge us on appliances or gifts we could have received I don't think that would be most representative of either our non-wealth status or our constant lack of nutrition.

But were you buying Beats by Dr. Dre headphones for $200-$300 dollars?

1. You don't know he bought them. I say he received them as a gift (with just as much authority as you have)
2. So what
3. You only harp on this because he is black

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gun safety 101: If someone is pointing a gun at you, make no sudden movements unless you have determined that your best chance is to go for a disarm.

Dahell man, do you even own a gun? NEVER go for a disarm. That's just dumb.

No. If you're being lead to your death, better to take a chance on trying to disarm him. The military and some martial arts teach how to do it. It's a high risk move but not something that never should be done.

Being followed by a whirlybird makes it extremely likely that it's the police.

Food for thought, the helicopter was using infrared. There was no spotlight. How exactly do you presume that he knew he was being followed by a helicopter? Do you assume that you're being followed every time you hear a helicopter?

Whirlybirds often fly around. When one is low to the ground and moving with you figure you're being followed. Especially if you were doing something that would attract the interest of a police chopper.

I have encountered a police chopper low and moving slowly exactly once--and I correctly identified which house they were interested in despite the lack of a spotlight or even a good look at it. (They were actually interested in an armed robber that had bailed and gone to ground there.)

 

[RavenSky]

In other words, your position is that poor people don't deserve nice things... not even as gifts.

There is having nice things and then there are headphones for several hundred dollars.

Bullshit.

As YOU said... maybe $200 - $300 new.

 

[RavenSky]

Being followed by a whirlybird makes it extremely likely that it's the police.

Food for thought, the helicopter was using infrared. There was no spotlight. How exactly do you presume that he knew he was being followed by a helicopter? Do you assume that you're being followed every time you hear a helicopter?

probably

 

[RavenSky]

If you're poor and economically sensible and somehow come to own a luxury good like this there's e-Bay or even Craigslist.

In other words, your position is that poor people don't deserve nice things... not even as gifts.

Fuck that disgusting shit.

Essentials before luxuries. You are asserting these are people without enough for the essentials. When they put money (or, in the case of a gift, fail to redeem) money to luxuries they are making themselves worse off.

Bullshit.

But thanks for letting everyone here know that you have never donated anything to "Toys for Tots" or "Make a Wish" foundation or "Family Giving Tree" <deleted comparison to Scrooge>

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I was very poor growing up. We were homeless a few times but most of the time lived in apartments. The refrigerator was often nearly empty. [We often had a fridge, stove, and heater due to assistance though Ronnie Raygun tore into the money so we lacked food]. I often lived on bread and mayonnaise sandwiches when I was 10. I was often malnutritioned. One of the best programs ever we took part in was WIC. Cheese, glorious cheese! Many Christmasses my Aunt gave me gifts. Her economic status could be described as middle-class. If someone were to judge us on appliances or gifts we could have received I don't think that would be most representative of either our non-wealth status or our constant lack of nutrition.

But were you buying Beats by Dr. Dre headphones for $200-$300 dollars?

1. You don't know he bought them. I say he received them as a gift (with just as much authority as you have)
2. So what
3. You only harp on this because he is black

A guy is shot to death for potentially nothing more than destruction of property and we are talking about his brother’s pricey headphones?!

A note about the chopper, he’d have to know it was there. They aren’t remotely quiet. And congrats to LP’s excellent echolocation skills. He should have been a whale.

 

[LordKiran]

1. You don't know he bought them. I say he received them as a gift (with just as much authority as you have)
2. So what
3. You only harp on this because he is black

A guy is shot to death for potentially nothing more than destruction of property and we are talking about his brother’s pricey headphones?!

A note about the chopper, he’d have to know it was there. They aren’t remotely quiet. And congrats to LP’s excellent echolocation skills. He should have been a whale.

Common Derail Derec arguing tactic. If you can't win or are losing, just redirect onto something irrelevant to the topic. It's really all he has, and that he even has the gall to complain about someone else impugning his character.

 

[ksen]

All these folks who think running away is a sign of aggression and/or a crime deserving of a street execution must have been playground bullies as children.

Nobody is saying that "running away" deserves a "street execution". But running away from police increases the chances of things going south, for example because police, in the dark, mistakes your iPhone for a gun. Sure, most of the time running suspects will be apprehended otherwise, but sometimes you win the suck lottery, and this was Stephon's turn.

And reversing direction and coming at police after previously running away is definitely an aggressive move and increases chances of bad things happening to you even more.

Who was running away from police?

Stephon certainly didn't think he was running away from police since they didn't identify themselves until after he was dead.

btw, long time no see! :wave:

 

[laughing dog]

Your approach works only if they have containment. In this sort of case a stand back approach could easily turn into a hostage situation.

Didn’t know it was possible, but my eyeballs just barfed.

Then get some better eyeballs.

Trying containment on a suspect when there are innocents within the containment is just asking for them to take those innocents hostage. It's not liberal fantasyland where better thought on the part of those with the power will always produce a good answer. Reality is full of choices with no good option.

Your responses are based on some bs fantasy in your mind. What possible hostage situation - Mr. Clark was in the backyard by himself. He was unarmed. He was not attacking anyone. And the police opened up a fussilade of fire in less than 3 seconds.

Sorry, but what the police did in this case was wrong in every sense of the word. But the usual suspects will go to any lengths to defend the killing of a black suspect by the police with the usual character smears and smokescreens about the family members of the victims.

 

[Derec]

Common Derail Derec arguing tactic. If you can't win or are losing, just redirect onto something irrelevant to the topic. It's really all he has, and that he even has the gall to complain about someone else impugning his character.

Wrong.
1. I am not losing.
2. I was not redirecting, it was merely a tangential observation. It is not I who chose to make a big deal out of that comment.

It is actually the opposite. Your side knows they are losing (the 'it was a shortcut' apologetics collapsed, the 'he was just in his backyard minding his own business' apolegtics likewise) and thus are blowing up tangential comments and trying to make hay out of that.