Stephon Clark killed by Sacramento police - he was in his own family's backyard

[Loren Pechtel]

it is a false dichotomy, but it is exactly what Derec and LP and coloradoatheist appear to be arguing.

No, what we are saying is that you guys are expecting a totally unreasonable standard. You want the cops to basically die rather than shoot.

Your conclusion is a straw man.

Still waiting how our soldiers can be expected to refrain from blowing any unarmed civilians in a war zone unless they clearly have a weapon, but police officers cannot

Soldiers aren't trying to arrest people. Thus they aren't likely to encounter the sorts of situations that cause shooting errors. They also have less direct contact with the people around.

 

[laughing dog]

Soldiers aren't trying to arrest people. Thus they aren't likely to encounter the sorts of situations that cause shooting errors.

My son patrolled in villages and towns where there were suspected terrorists and terrorist sympathizers. They were looking to take suspects in. And almost every home had arms.

They also have less direct contact with the people around.

They actually had more direct contact with the people since they patrolled on foot rather than in cars like the police.

If the soldiers could operate effectively in that environment when they were constrained to shoot only when either attacked or under clear eminent danger (i.e. someone was armed and dangerous), why cannot the police?

Sorry Loren, but the Toronto police can do it. US soldiers can do it. However, you feel that US police officers cannot even though you have no evidence to support your view.

 

[Toni]

Your conclusion is a straw man.

Still waiting how our soldiers can be expected to refrain from blowing any unarmed civilians in a war zone unless they clearly have a weapon, but police officers cannot

Soldiers aren't trying to arrest people. Thus they aren't likely to encounter the sorts of situations that cause shooting errors. They also have less direct contact with the people around.

Obviously you have never been in a war zone nor have you served in the military, nor are you conversant with actual military missions and operations. I've had very close family members deployed in war zones in recent times. As in stationed right next to Taliban villages. Going door to door looking for weapons. Somehow, they managed to not kill people, although they did have to take some into custody due to stockpiles of firearms found on premises.

 

[James Brown]

Your conclusion is a straw man.

Still waiting how our soldiers can be expected to refrain from blowing any unarmed civilians in a war zone unless they clearly have a weapon, but police officers cannot

Soldiers aren't trying to arrest people. Thus they aren't likely to encounter the sorts of situations that cause shooting errors. They also have less direct contact with the people around.

Obviously you have never been in a war zone nor have you served in the military, nor are you conversant with actual military missions and operations. I've had very close family members deployed in war zones in recent times. As in stationed right next to Taliban villages. Going door to door looking for weapons. Somehow, they managed to not kill people, although they did have to take some into custody due to stockpiles of firearms found on premises.

But were any of them holding phones?

 

[Emily Lake]

Soldiers aren't trying to arrest people. Thus they aren't likely to encounter the sorts of situations that cause shooting errors. They also have less direct contact with the people around.

What are you even basing these assumptions on?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Soldiers aren't trying to arrest people. Thus they aren't likely to encounter the sorts of situations that cause shooting errors. They also have less direct contact with the people around.

What are you even basing these assumptions on?

Call of Duty.

 

[Derec]

No charges in the Stephon Clark case!

Cops who fatally shot Stephon Clark, an unarmed black man, last year will not face criminal charges, Sacramento AG says

In a lengthy presentation to reporters, Sacramento District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert said the evidence — including video of the scene — showed that the victim, Stephon Clark, 22, was advancing on the two officers and was in a shooting posture when they opened fire.
Officers Terrance Mercadal and Jared Robinet both said they saw a light that appeared to be either a flash from the muzzle of the gun or light reflecting off of a firearm.
“We must recognize that they are often forced to make split-second decisions and we must recognize that they are under tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving circumstances,” Schubert said.

A new piece of information is that he was apparently suicidal over the prospect of going back to prison.

Schubert's recitation of the evidence included a detailed description of the contents of Clark's phone call that showed he was upset over a domestic violence incident with his girlfriend, Selena, two nights before. It also showed that he had been trying to reconcile with her and had, at the same time, been searching the internet for information on how to commit suicide.
Schubert said the strains with Selena, the mother of his children, including her threats to notify his probation officer, prompted him to call her 76 times in the two days before the backyard fatal shooting.
At one point he drafted, but never sent, a text to law enforcement, "I'm pretty scared I'm going to be put in jail."

Nevertheless, I bet City of Sacramento ends up giving the the family millions.

Clark’s family, including his two sons, his parents and his grandparents, filed a wrongful death lawsuit in January seeking more than $20 million from the city, Mercadal and Robinet, alleging that the cops used excessive force and that Clark was a victim of racial profiling.

20 million? We definitely need a reform of the tort system. These lawyers are pulling these random dollar amounts from where the sun don't shine.

 

[laughing dog]

The police did not know he was armed, drew the wrong conclusion and killed him. And somehow, some people think this death is not wrongful.

 

[Derec]

The police did not know he was armed, drew the wrong conclusion and killed him. And somehow, some people think this death is not wrongful.

You cannot judge police (or anybody else) on what they did not know. Not based on Monday morning quarterbacking.

And from the DA shared yesterday, Stephon might have done what he did (i.e. hold an object while advancing toward cops) as a "suicide by cop".

 

[laughing dog]

The police did not know he was armed, drew the wrong conclusion and killed him. And somehow, some people think this death is not wrongful.

You cannot judge police (or anybody else) on what they did not know. Not based on Monday morning quarterbacking.

That is logically idiotic. The man was not armed. IMO, in a civilized society, the police ought to determine whether someone is armed before they shoot to kill.

And from the DA shared yesterday, Stephon might have done what he did (i.e. hold an object while advancing toward cops) as a "suicide by cop".

So? Show me where in the police manual they are supposed to assist people commit suicide (assuming that assisting suicide is even legal there).

 

[James Brown]

Before this new report, the defense boiled down to two points:

A) He was acting suspicious (avoiding arrest, skirting through backyards, walking toward police, etc.)
B) He might have been armed.

Either one of those points by themselves are not suitable justification for fatal shootings. Evading arrest is not sufficient for deadly force. And this is the land of the Second Amendment--nearly everyone might be armed.

But for some reason, when both points are combined, suddenly we have grounds for shooting twenty-one times at a suspect with seven bullets striking him.

Now we have a third point--the victim was suicidal.

Of course, the police did not know he was suicidal during their pursuit, so that factor could not have entered their thinking that night. And being suicidal is not grounds for deadly force, any more than evading arrest or possibly carrying a weapon.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Now we have a third point--the victim was suicidal.

Of course, the police did not know he was suicidal during their pursuit, so that factor could not have entered their thinking that night. And being suicidal is not grounds for deadly force, any more than evading arrest or possibly carrying a weapon.

But it's a good reason for charges not to be brought. The defense would point out he was suicidal which suggests suicide by cop. Reasonable doubt--a jury would be unlikely to convict.

 

[laughing dog]

Now we have a third point--the victim was suicidal.

Of course, the police did not know he was suicidal during their pursuit, so that factor could not have entered their thinking that night. And being suicidal is not grounds for deadly force, any more than evading arrest or possibly carrying a weapon.

But it's a good reason for charges not to be brought. The defense would point out he was suicidal which suggests suicide by cop. Reasonable doubt--a jury would be unlikely to convict.

It is exactly that kind of "logic" that permits police to gun down unarmed suspects, including mentally ill ones that want to die, without any repercussions.

 

[Mumbles]

Yeah yeah, the black guy wasn't perfect, that's why we shot him several times in the back. Any excuse will do. We know that the black male shows that he wants to commit murderous intent by turning away from someone, like Darrien Hunt.

It's true that in the US, police have vastly too much leeway when shooting people, simply stating "I feared for my life" usually being justification enough. That's why we need vastly better training (including a ban on so-called "Warrior cop" training), and better justices on the Supreme Court to say "That's ridiculous, you need more than that to blast away at someone."

 

[zorq]

The police did not know he was armed, drew the wrong conclusion and killed him. And somehow, some people think this death is not wrongful.

You cannot judge police (or anybody else) on what they did not know. Not based on Monday morning quarterbacking.

And from the DA shared yesterday, Stephon might have done what he did (i.e. hold an object while advancing toward cops) as a "suicide by cop".

Considering the officers in question never identified themselves as police officers, I find "suicide by cop" theories to be highly unconvincing. The police had flashlights. Clark did not. Strangers shouting at you in the dark and flashing bright lights in your face on your own property is a recipe for confusion, NOT suicide.

 

[Derec]

Considering the officers in question never identified themselves as police officers, I find "suicide by cop" theories to be highly unconvincing. The police had flashlights. Clark did not. Strangers shouting at you in the dark and flashing bright lights in your face on your own property are a recipe for confusion first and foremost. NOT suicide.

We went over it when it happened, 40 or so pages ago. He knew full well they were cops, as he was running from them well before these particular cops made contact with him in the yard.

 

[Derec]

Yeah yeah, the black guy wasn't perfect,

Wasn't perfect? Not being perfect is getting a B on a test.
This dindu has an extensive criminal record going back to age of 16. He was just released from prison a month before he was shot. He domestically assaulted his girlfriend the day before he was shot. That is the polar opposite of "perfect".

that's why we shot him several times in the back.

I think the only shots that went back to front were when he already fell to the ground. If you look at the video, he was facing the cops and advancing toward them when they opened fire.

Any excuse will do. We know that the black male shows that he wants to commit murderous intent by turning away from someone, like Darrien Hunt.

Is that the genius who was swinging a katana at police?

It's true that in the US, police have vastly too much leeway when shooting people, simply stating "I feared for my life" usually being justification enough. That's why we need vastly better training (including a ban on so-called "Warrior cop" training), and better justices on the Supreme Court to say "That's ridiculous, you need more than that to blast away at someone."

Like allow the perp to get the first shot off, or in the case of melee weapons actually draw some blood, before lethal force can be used?

- - - Updated - - -

Fans of St. Stephon:

 

[zorq]

Considering the officers in question never identified themselves as police officers, I find "suicide by cop" theories to be highly unconvincing. The police had flashlights. Clark did not. Strangers shouting at you in the dark and flashing bright lights in your face on your own property are a recipe for confusion first and foremost. NOT suicide.

We went over it when it happened, 40 or so pages ago. He knew full well they were cops, as he was running from them well before these particular cops made contact with him in the yard.

It's amazing how well your mind reading crystal ball always helps you to reinforce your prejudices.

What prejudices you ask?

The same ones that made you think you were making good point when you posted that picture just above this one.

 

[Derec]

It's amazing how well your mind reading crystal ball always helps you to reinforce your prejudices.

It's not a prejudice. It's a fact that Stephon was fleeing police long before these two cops made contact with him in the yard. He wasn't hanging out at his grandma's house minding his own business, like some have claimed.

The same ones that made you think you were making good point when you posted that picture just above this one.

It is a good point about Stephon protesters hating police and hating US.

 

[marc]

To reiterate from long ago:

Looking at the video again.

"ShowMeYourHandsGunGunGun!*Bang**Bang*" Less than 2 seconds from the start of that 'sentence' to shooting. Can anyone really argue that there was sufficient time in that for the guy to comply to the command, and the cop to in any real way assess what he had in his hand?