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Studies on vaccines

No links but I watched a recent show.

One hypothesis was that getting multiple vaccines at the same time while young may affect immune system development.
 
Shannon Brownlee said:
But while vaccines for, say, whooping cough and polio clearly and dramatically reduced death rates from those diseases, the impact of flu vaccine has been harder to determine. Flu comes and goes with the seasons, and often it does not kill people directly, but rather contributes to death by making the body more susceptible to secondary infections like pneumonia or bronchitis. For this reason, researchers studying the impact of flu vaccination typically look at deaths from all causes during flu season, and compare the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

Such comparisons have shown a dramatic difference in mortality between these two groups: study after study has found that people who get a flu shot in the fall are about half as likely to die that winter—from any cause—as people who do not. Get your flu shot each year, the literature suggests, and you will dramatically reduce your chance of dying during flu season.

Yet in the view of several vaccine skeptics, this claim is suspicious on its face. Influenza causes only a small minority of all deaths in the U.S., even among senior citizens, and even after adding in the deaths to which flu might have contributed indirectly. When researchers from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases included all deaths from illnesses that flu aggravates, like lung disease or chronic heart failure, they found that flu accounts for, at most, 10 percent of winter deaths among the elderly. So how could flu vaccine possibly reduce total deaths by half? Tom Jefferson, a physician based in Rome and the head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence, says: “For a vaccine to reduce mortality by 50 percent and up to 90 percent in some studies means it has to prevent deaths not just from influenza, but also from falls, fires, heart disease, strokes, and car accidents. That’s not a vaccine, that’s a miracle.”

The estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction is based on “cohort studies,” which compare death rates in large groups, or cohorts, of people who choose to be vaccinated, against death rates in groups who don’t. But people who choose to be vaccinated may differ in many important respects from people who go unvaccinated—and those differences can influence the chance of death during flu season. Education, lifestyle, income, and many other “confounding” factors can come into play, and as a result, cohort studies are notoriously prone to bias. When researchers crunch the numbers, they typically try to factor out variables that could bias the results, but, as Jefferson remarks, “you can adjust for the confounders you know about, not for the ones you don’t,” and researchers can’t always anticipate what factors are likely to be important to whether a patient dies from flu. There is always the chance that they might miss some critical confounder that renders their results entirely wrong.

When Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center, in Seattle, began wondering aloud to colleagues if maybe something was amiss with the estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction for people who get flu vaccine, the response she got sounded more like doctrine than science. “People told me, ‘No good can come of [asking] this,’” she says. “‘Potentially a lot of bad could happen’ for me professionally by raising any criticism that might dissuade people from getting vaccinated, because of course, ‘We know that vaccine works.’ This was the prevailing wisdom.”

Nonetheless, in 2004, Jackson and three colleagues set out to determine whether the mortality difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated might be caused by a phenomenon known as the “healthy user effect.” They hypothesized that on average, people who get vaccinated are simply healthier than those who don’t, and thus less liable to die over the short term. People who don’t get vaccinated may be bedridden or otherwise too sick to go get a shot. They may also be more likely to succumb to flu or any other illness, because they are generally older and sicker. To test their thesis, Jackson and her colleagues combed through eight years of medical data on more than 72,000 people 65 and older. They looked at who got flu shots and who didn’t. Then they examined which group’s members were more likely to die of any cause when it was not flu season.

Jackson’s findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the “frail elderly” didn’t or couldn’t. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all. Jackson’s papers “are beautiful,” says Lone Simonsen, who is a professor of global health at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., and an internationally recognized expert in influenza and vaccine epidemiology. “They are classic studies in epidemiology, they are so carefully done.”

They basically showed that the 'literature' which supported vaccinating elders was making wild hyperbolic claims about its effectiveness, when it was, in all likelihood, basically ineffective.

The claims of efficacy, from the manufacturers, is bullshit supported by exceedingly bad science. Indeed, it is quackery.

And once again, it’s recycling the same damn claims by Jefferson, claims that are demonstrably gerrymandered and Just bad science from a chap so neutral he goes on the Gary Null Antivax show, as highlighted earlier.
 
It would seem any coo relations would be difficult, it would require a large control sample of unvaccinated kids. Add to isolating the variables.
 
It would seem any coo relations would be difficult, it would require a large control sample of unvaccinated kids. Add to isolating the variables.

The problem of control with an effective treatment means no ethics committee would ever ok it. But it stands to reason that there may we’ll be optimum patterns of vaccination that maximise take up and effectiveness while minimising side effects.

One of the irritating effects of antivaxers is that it’s hard to discuss problems with vaccination or greedy pharma companies if you know that anything said will be grabbed out of context and used as ‘told you so’ propaganda. Extremists always coarsen public debate.
 
Shannon Brownlee said:
But while vaccines for, say, whooping cough and polio clearly and dramatically reduced death rates from those diseases, the impact of flu vaccine has been harder to determine. Flu comes and goes with the seasons, and often it does not kill people directly, but rather contributes to death by making the body more susceptible to secondary infections like pneumonia or bronchitis. For this reason, researchers studying the impact of flu vaccination typically look at deaths from all causes during flu season, and compare the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

Such comparisons have shown a dramatic difference in mortality between these two groups: study after study has found that people who get a flu shot in the fall are about half as likely to die that winter—from any cause—as people who do not. Get your flu shot each year, the literature suggests, and you will dramatically reduce your chance of dying during flu season.

Yet in the view of several vaccine skeptics, this claim is suspicious on its face. Influenza causes only a small minority of all deaths in the U.S., even among senior citizens, and even after adding in the deaths to which flu might have contributed indirectly. When researchers from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases included all deaths from illnesses that flu aggravates, like lung disease or chronic heart failure, they found that flu accounts for, at most, 10 percent of winter deaths among the elderly. So how could flu vaccine possibly reduce total deaths by half? Tom Jefferson, a physician based in Rome and the head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence, says: “For a vaccine to reduce mortality by 50 percent and up to 90 percent in some studies means it has to prevent deaths not just from influenza, but also from falls, fires, heart disease, strokes, and car accidents. That’s not a vaccine, that’s a miracle.”

The estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction is based on “cohort studies,” which compare death rates in large groups, or cohorts, of people who choose to be vaccinated, against death rates in groups who don’t. But people who choose to be vaccinated may differ in many important respects from people who go unvaccinated—and those differences can influence the chance of death during flu season. Education, lifestyle, income, and many other “confounding” factors can come into play, and as a result, cohort studies are notoriously prone to bias. When researchers crunch the numbers, they typically try to factor out variables that could bias the results, but, as Jefferson remarks, “you can adjust for the confounders you know about, not for the ones you don’t,” and researchers can’t always anticipate what factors are likely to be important to whether a patient dies from flu. There is always the chance that they might miss some critical confounder that renders their results entirely wrong.

When Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center, in Seattle, began wondering aloud to colleagues if maybe something was amiss with the estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction for people who get flu vaccine, the response she got sounded more like doctrine than science. “People told me, ‘No good can come of [asking] this,’” she says. “‘Potentially a lot of bad could happen’ for me professionally by raising any criticism that might dissuade people from getting vaccinated, because of course, ‘We know that vaccine works.’ This was the prevailing wisdom.”

Nonetheless, in 2004, Jackson and three colleagues set out to determine whether the mortality difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated might be caused by a phenomenon known as the “healthy user effect.” They hypothesized that on average, people who get vaccinated are simply healthier than those who don’t, and thus less liable to die over the short term. People who don’t get vaccinated may be bedridden or otherwise too sick to go get a shot. They may also be more likely to succumb to flu or any other illness, because they are generally older and sicker. To test their thesis, Jackson and her colleagues combed through eight years of medical data on more than 72,000 people 65 and older. They looked at who got flu shots and who didn’t. Then they examined which group’s members were more likely to die of any cause when it was not flu season.

Jackson’s findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the “frail elderly” didn’t or couldn’t. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all. Jackson’s papers “are beautiful,” says Lone Simonsen, who is a professor of global health at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., and an internationally recognized expert in influenza and vaccine epidemiology. “They are classic studies in epidemiology, they are so carefully done.”

They basically showed that the 'literature' which supported vaccinating elders was making wild hyperbolic claims about its effectiveness, when it was, in all likelihood, basically ineffective.

The claims of efficacy, from the manufacturers, is bullshit supported by exceedingly bad science. Indeed, it is quackery.

And once again, it’s recycling the same damn claims by Jefferson, claims that are demonstrably gerrymandered and Just bad science from a chap so neutral he goes on the Gary Null Antivax show, as highlighted earlier.

<snip>

A recognized scientist goes on broadcast media to explain his position and he is condemned because of doing so? Just because of whose show he made the presentation on? Now, that sounds like an exceedingly stupid methodology to condemn a person. Gary Null did not make the presentation, nor do the science, Jefferson did. It was Jefferson explaining his position on Null's show. That you don't like it is just basically tough shit. Jefferson is trying to explain his position to whoever will listen. Do you condemn everyone who appears on Ophrah Winfrey's programs? Or, the program of any interviewer who you happen to dislike? Do you have a list of appropriate listening materials for all of us here? <snip>

"He talks to people we don't like! It's off to the camps with him!"
 
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Besides, the cited quote is about the Jackson & Jackson study in Seattle. Jefferson is just cited as an authoritative source with a definite opinion on the research. As was Lone Simonsen.
 
Just some of the realizations arising from the Jackson & Jackson studies out of Seattle Cooperative Health Research regarding the claims of influenza vaccine producers.

Old news. These days they have figured out that the elderly on average need a higher dose to get the same protection. Thus they give the elderly higher doses these days.

*facepalm*

You missed the point entirely.

No.

The original testing was on those with no other medical issues and experience showed that some changes were needed for parts of the population. Not perfect != useless.
 
And once again, it’s recycling the same damn claims by Jefferson, claims that are demonstrably gerrymandered and Just bad science from a chap so neutral he goes on the Gary Null Antivax show, as highlighted earlier.

<snip>

A recognized scientist goes on broadcast media to explain his position and he is condemned because of doing so? Just because of whose show he made the presentation on? Now, that sounds like an exceedingly stupid methodology to condemn a person. Gary Null did not make the presentation, nor do the science, Jefferson did. It was Jefferson explaining his position on Null's show. That you don't like it is just basically tough shit. Jefferson is trying to explain his position to whoever will listen. Do you condemn everyone who appears on Ophrah Winfrey's programs? Or, the program of any interviewer who you happen to dislike? Do you have a list of appropriate listening materials for all of us here? <snip>

"He talks to people we don't like! It's off to the camps with him!"

You're known by the company you keep. Appear on a quack show and you'll be figured to be a quack.
 
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The flu vaccine does not have 100% efficacy because of the nature of the flu virus. One literally cannot cure the flu, because the virus is constantly mutating. The makers of the vaccine basically take their best guess and hope it saves a few people.

According to the folks at Cochrane Collaboration (that being primarily Dr. Tom Jefferson and his team), the best you might expect from the 'flu vaccine' is protection from 7-15% of the circulating infectious agents which could cause an influenza-like infection, if you are lucky and the WHO guesstimate of which strains would be prevalent were accurate and if the CDC-recommended vaccines were correctly matched to those strains. Otherwise, the level of protection falls rapidly to zero. Despite what all the advertising states, influenza vaccination will NOT protect you from 'the flu', because at any given time, there are over 200 infectious agents out there which might cause 'the flu' and the vaccine, if effective, will protect you from exactly four.

My understanding is that the strains are regional... and unless one rejects core principles of biology one must understand that you need the right vax for the right strain at the right time of year.

I don;t do flu shots for two reasons... 1) it makes me feel a little sick for a couple of days and 2) I never get the flu more than 1 time, if ever, per year.... so why guarantee symptoms when there is a chance I get none. If I do catch it, I don't spread it.
 
Sub said:
And once again, it’s recycling the same damn claims by Jefferson, claims that are demonstrably gerrymandered and Just bad science from a chap so neutral he goes on the Gary Null Antivax show, as highlighted earlier.

Now, why the hell should anybody give you any credence whatsoever? <snip>

I'm not asking anyone to give me credence. I'm asking them to look at my arguments and evidence.

<snip>

A recognized scientist goes on broadcast media to explain his position and he is condemned because of doing so?

Actually, If you bothered reading what I posted he's slightly condemned for being daft enough to go on a well known anti vaxer's show, but mostly condemned for what he said on that show. As usual, you really should red the source before typing.

Just because of whose show he made the presentation on? Now, that sounds like an exceedingly stupid methodology to condemn a person.

Well, when you are trying to pretend to be neutral, then yes going on an antivax show is a marked lack of judgement or worse.

Gary Null did not make the presentation, nor do the science, Jefferson did.

No, Null just asked a series of leading questions. And Jefferson neither pulled him up on them nor showed the slightest interest in challenging the anti vax posture. I wonder why?


It was Jefferson explaining his position on Null's show. That you don't like it is just basically tough shit. Jefferson is trying to explain his position to whoever will listen.

Actually I posted two different sources pointing out some of the problems with what Jefferson had to say. That's the real problem. He was on an antivax show making comments that are misleading and referring back to work that is highly misleading. But we did why it is misleading here and on SC. I can post it all again if you have forgotten already.

Do you condemn everyone who appears on Ophrah Winfrey's programs?

I don't know... is Oprah a rabid anti vaxxer with a great fat axe to grind?

Or, the program of any interviewer who you happen to dislike?

I have no idea if I like NUll or not. My problem with him is that he's a rabid antivaxxer.


Do you have a list of appropriate listening materials for all of us here?

I'm just objecting to someone who pretends to be neutral appearing on an antivaxxers show and launching into a misleading (sea earlier evidence, do I need to repost it again?) Spiel. That's my problem, however you might try to spin it.


<snip> There's a list of evidence in this thread alone that you have ignored and will, no doubt ignore again.


"He talks to people we don't like! It's off to the camps with him!"

Why not just scream 'fake news' at the top of your voice? That's the level you have dragged the discussion down to.
 
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Besides, the cited quote is about the Jackson & Jackson study in Seattle. Jefferson is just cited as an authoritative source with a definite opinion on the research. As was Lone Simonsen.

Except, of course the cited paper is the one that is embarrassingly dishonest, including all flu like symptoms. Colds were counted as flu like symptoms. Would you like me to explain again, what this fallacy is called or did you get it the first four times? That's one advantage of arguing with you, I can just cut and paste the last time you posted the nonsense you post.
 
And once again, it’s recycling the same damn claims by Jefferson, claims that are demonstrably gerrymandered and Just bad science from a chap so neutral he goes on the Gary Null Antivax show, as highlighted earlier.

<snip>

A recognized scientist goes on broadcast media to explain his position and he is condemned because of doing so? Just because of whose show he made the presentation on? Now, that sounds like an exceedingly stupid methodology to condemn a person. Gary Null did not make the presentation, nor do the science, Jefferson did. It was Jefferson explaining his position on Null's show. That you don't like it is just basically tough shit. Jefferson is trying to explain his position to whoever will listen. Do you condemn everyone who appears on Ophrah Winfrey's programs? Or, the program of any interviewer who you happen to dislike? Do you have a list of appropriate listening materials for all of us here? <snip>

"He talks to people we don't like! It's off to the camps with him!"

You're known by the company you keep. Appear on a quack show and you'll be figured to be a quack.

I'll keep that in mind <snip>
 
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Besides, the cited quote is about the Jackson & Jackson study in Seattle. Jefferson is just cited as an authoritative source with a definite opinion on the research. As was Lone Simonsen.

Except, of course the cited paper is the one that is embarrassingly dishonest, including all flu like symptoms. Colds were counted as flu like symptoms. Would you like me to explain again, what this fallacy is called or did you get it the first four times? That's one advantage of arguing with you, I can just cut and paste the last time you posted the nonsense you post.

Excuse me, but the author is a well-known journalist who regularly writes on health policy issues. Who the fuck are you? An anonymous asshole.

And, I see that you have not read Dr. Jefferson's piece, linked above, where he explains about why the 'common cold' is included in the over 200 infectious agents which cause influenza-like infections. You cut and paste for shit because your reading comprehension is for shit.
 
"He talks to people we don't like! It's off to the camps with him!"

Why not just scream 'fake news' at the top of your voice? That's the level you have dragged the discussion down to.

No. That is the level YOU have dragged the discussion down to.

And Crislip....a blogger of dubious credentials...is who you intend to put up against the head of the Vaccine Field at Cochrane Collaboration?

LOL...Good luck with that. <snip>

I'd love to get Jefferson here in town, so Crislip could come and get his intellectual ass kicked all over Pill Hill. Even Ben Goldacre could do that.

WOOOO-HOOO...Crislip is some kind of MD who works in infectious diseases. At Adventist. WOOOO...Somebody who works for apocalyptic whackjobs!

That association alone ought to damn him for all eternity. :D

I'll bet he IS a real KOL, too. Probably gets monthly loyalty checks.
 
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Besides, the cited quote is about the Jackson & Jackson study in Seattle. Jefferson is just cited as an authoritative source with a definite opinion on the research. As was Lone Simonsen.

Except, of course the cited paper is the one that is embarrassingly dishonest, including all flu like symptoms. Colds were counted as flu like symptoms. Would you like me to explain again, what this fallacy is called or did you get it the first four times? That's one advantage of arguing with you, I can just cut and paste the last time you posted the nonsense you post.

Excuse me, but the author is a well-known journalist who regularly writes on health policy issues. Who the fuck are you? An anonymous asshole.

And, I see that you have not read Dr. Jefferson's piece, linked above, where he explains about why the 'common cold' is included in the over 200 infectious agents which cause influenza-like infections. You cut and paste for shit because your reading comprehension is for shit.

Please feel free to link to one that I haven't already addressed over on SC. Do you not see why including two hundred other vectors that produce similar symptoms is not the best way of evaluating a vaccine for the one that, every so often, kills vast numbers of people? Or is it the other one you like to post arguing that the flu vaccination can't be as effective as it is because there are so many other vectors. Link to the one you have in mind over the selection you are alluding to and I'll have a look.
 
Back in the early 80s clusters of problems were reported in Canada were reported with pregnant women using CRT based displayswere reported. It stared a firestorm with unions.

My company asked me to look into it. I eventually talked to somebody working on the issue at the UW. He said a few inches from displays radiation was background radiation. It eventually went away as an issue.

Vaccines are a risk analysis. Risk from drugs vs risk from disease. Polio used to be a childhood problem.

If the study is in Seattle, is it connected to the Discovery Institute? The Christian slick looking pseudo science Creationism and Intelligent Designer site.
 
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