Studies on vaccines

[rousseau]

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Agreed. The success of vaccines has been so overwhelming, it is incredible to hear arguments against them. Measles pops up every once in a while because of stupid shit in the post of whollygoats.

The one constant in all of this is scientific illiteracy.

The 'vaccine debate' has been ongoing and repetitive for a long time, and it's not a problem with vaccines, it's a problem with people being scared of and confused about science. I'm yet to come across a legitimate argument against the use vaccines.

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Agreed. The success of vaccines has been so overwhelming, it is incredible to hear arguments against them. Measles pops up every once in a while because of stupid shit in the post of whollygoats.

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

It's like a law of nature that vaccine critics always point back to the flu vaccine.

The flu vaccine does not have 100% efficacy because of the nature of the flu virus. One literally cannot cure the flu, because the virus is constantly mutating. The makers of the vaccine basically take their best guess and hope it saves a few people.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Anti Vaccination proponents are right up there with the "raw water" proponents. Idiocy, IMO.
http://fortune.com/2017/12/31/raw-water-live-water-juicero/

Jebus! That's a thing?! Here, have some e coli, it is safer than fluoride.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Agreed. The success of vaccines has been so overwhelming, it is incredible to hear arguments against them. Measles pops up every once in a while because of stupid shit in the post of whollygoats.

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

Any other vaccines you want to rail on as well? How about the chicken pox or shingles ones?

 

[whollygoats]

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

Any other vaccines you want to rail on as well? How about the chicken pox or shingles ones?

Jimmy, your reading comprehension has failed. I made it clear that I have gotten my shingles vaccine. And that is because I had chicken pox as a child, before any vaccine was available.

Until recently, the assurance from medicine was that if one had had chicken pox as a child, then one was immune to it thereafter. Then shingles was traced to chicken pox infection. I researched the shingles vaccine prior to assenting to inoculation. I understand the risks and the benefits. I chose to do so.

So, no.

Contrarily, there is plenty of evidence to indicate that immunizing for seasonal 'flu' is a waste of public health funds. It is of marginal effectiveness because the initiative is based upon a semantic ambiguity crudely utilized to flog a crappy vaccine as 'effective'. It is a marketing rape of public gullibility.

 

[whollygoats]

The flu vaccine does not have 100% efficacy because of the nature of the flu virus. One literally cannot cure the flu, because the virus is constantly mutating. The makers of the vaccine basically take their best guess and hope it saves a few people.

According to the folks at Cochrane Collaboration (that being primarily Dr. Tom Jefferson and his team), the best you might expect from the 'flu vaccine' is protection from 7-15% of the circulating infectious agents which could cause an influenza-like infection, if you are lucky and the WHO guesstimate of which strains would be prevalent were accurate and if the CDC-recommended vaccines were correctly matched to those strains. Otherwise, the level of protection falls rapidly to zero. Despite what all the advertising states, influenza vaccination will NOT protect you from 'the flu', because at any given time, there are over 200 infectious agents out there which might cause 'the flu' and the vaccine, if effective, will protect you from exactly four.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

Any other vaccines you want to rail on as well? How about the chicken pox or shingles ones?

Jimmy, your reading comprehension has failed.

How can reading comprehension fail when I asked you for specific recent vaccinations you felt were based on a lie. I named two of them. You sound like you are whining about vaccinations, but maybe you should just say "I don't trust the flu vaccine, and only the flu vaccine, because..."

I made it clear that I have gotten my shingles vaccine. And that is because I had chicken pox as a child, before any vaccine was available.

Until recently, the assurance from medicine was that if one had had chicken pox as a child, then one was immune to it thereafter. Then shingles was traced to chicken pox infection. I researched the shingles vaccine prior to assenting to inoculation. I understand the risks and the benefits. I chose to do so.

Good for you. I wish I could have taken the shingles vaccine before I got it at an age before you are allowed to get the shingles vaccine. Luckily, the seering eye pain got me into the doctor's office and it was caught super early!

Contrarily, there is plenty of evidence to indicate that immunizing for seasonal 'flu' is a waste of public health funds.

It is of marginal effectiveness because the initiative is based upon a semantic ambiguity crudely utilized to flog a crappy vaccine as 'effective'. It is a marketing rape of public gullibility.

Lot of words in there with little substance.

 

[skepticalbip]

The flu vaccine does not have 100% efficacy because of the nature of the flu virus. One literally cannot cure the flu, because the virus is constantly mutating. The makers of the vaccine basically take their best guess and hope it saves a few people.

According to the folks at Cochrane Collaboration (that being primarily Dr. Tom Jefferson and his team), the best you might expect from the 'flu vaccine' is protection from 7-15% of the circulating infectious agents which could cause an influenza-like infection, if you are lucky and the WHO guesstimate of which strains would be prevalent were accurate and the CDC-recommended vaccines were correctly matched to those strains. Otherwise, the level of protection falls rapidly. Despite what all the advertising states, influenza vaccination will NOT protect you from 'the flu', because at any given time, there are over 200 infectious agents out there which might cause them and the vaccine, if effective, will protect you from exactly four.

That is if the four strains from last year's flu season that were selected did not significantly mutate by this year's flu season. Flu is a special case of fast mutating bugs that is damned difficult to immunize against. Unfortunately, too many conflate this with the other vaccines like chicken pox, measles, etc. that are damned effective.

 

[whollygoats]

Lot of words in there with little substance.

So...Did you read the Jefferson article I linked to in this thread?

Or any of the other links? I think there is a lot of substance to be had.

Do you think 'Evidence-Based Medicine' is a worthy goal, or not?

 

[whollygoats]

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Agreed. The success of vaccines has been so overwhelming, it is incredible to hear arguments against them. Measles pops up every once in a while because of stupid shit in the post of whollygoats.

Specify the 'stupid shit'.

I'm still waiting, Jimmy.

 

[Subsymbolic]

Lot of words in there with little substance.

So...Did you read the Jefferson article I linked to in this thread?

Or any of the other links? I think there is a lot of substance to be had.

Do you think 'Evidence-Based Medicine' is a worthy goal, or not?

That would be the same article that was disassembled for you back on SC. I’m sure I can find the link if you have forgotten.

Here you go for those who like staring at train wrecks.

https://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=25251&page=1

https://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=27399

I’m sure there’s another couple too... Oh and the link between Null and Jefferson, care to share?

The fact is, as I remember, that diseases with flu like symptoms are not flu. Counting them as things that a flu vaxine can’t cover is misleading a massively skews the numbers. Actual flu tends to kill people in a way that other viruses with flue like symptoms do not. Meanwhile, the more varieties of flu that you expose your immune system to helps give at least partial immunity to other variations and will massively reduce fatalities when the next killer flu pops up suddenly.

More to the point, keeping the capacity chugging over means that when we have an epidemic with a really dangerous strain, they’ll. be able to crank up production rapidly and save millions of lives both through direct immunity and slowing things down through increasing herd immunity disrupting transmissions. Every so often flue kills millions. That’s worth having spare capacity for and people trying to undermine that should perhaps focus on more expensive and less useful white elephants like the F35.

Please don’t, as you have on SC, attack me personally and as a mod for disagreeing with your increasingly covert anti vax creed. I’m a bit disappointed as things had calmed down a bit, but please note I’m not attacking you, just the anti vax polemic, especially as you are repeating stuff that has been comprehensively debunked elsewhere.

I think that all fits Jimmy’s definition nicely.

 

[Playball40]

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

Any other vaccines you want to rail on as well? How about the chicken pox or shingles ones?

Do not forget Gardasil. That one is hated the most.

 

[whollygoats]

...especially as you are repeating stuff that has been comprehensively debunked elsewhere.

I disagree.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Cannot take vaccines? The vanishingly small number who cannot be vaccinated are the flip side of the vanishingly small numbers who are permanently harmed by vaccine administration under the current paradigm. Tough luck, eh?

The number who can not be vaccinated is far larger than you think. Anyone immunocompromised. Anyone who is allergic to the growth medium of the vaccine.

And the number of serious injuries due to vaccines is very, very low--far lower than the number harmed by not vaccinating.

There's also a tragedy of the commons problem--if everyone else vaccinates it's in your interest not to. However, if everyone takes this path the result is worse for everyone. Thus vaccination should be mandatory except for those who can't for medical reasons--and those medical reasons should be reviewed by an independent professional, not the family doctor. Family doctors are too willing to provide medical exemptions rather than lose a patient.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Agreed. The success of vaccines has been so overwhelming, it is incredible to hear arguments against them. Measles pops up every once in a while because of stupid shit in the post of whollygoats.

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

They are not a fraud, just a case where the effectiveness isn't all that great. There are two basic problems:

1) The flu vaccine has never been as effective as many others. Note, however, that even imperfect effectiveness is a big help as it means the infection will be less severe.

2) There are many, many strains of flu. They must guess which will be the big ones next flu season and prepare the vaccine accordingly. If they guess well the vaccine is pretty effective that year. If they guess badly the vaccine doesn't do too much that year.

 

[Subsymbolic]

...especially as you are repeating stuff that has been comprehensively debunked elsewhere.

I disagree.

Cool. I have provided what we in the scientific community call evidence for my assertion. You can disagree all that you like, but you'll need to provide argument and evidence for your claim and actually argue it. But we both know precisely how that will go.

Or you can, as you have in the past, just attack me personally.

 

[bilby]

That 'overwhelming success' has not been the case with 'influenza vaccines'. They continue to be a useless fraud perpetrated upon the unwitting public.

Any other vaccines you want to rail on as well? How about the chicken pox or shingles ones?

Do not forget Gardasil. That one is hated the most.

Well, if someone who has had it gets pancreatic cancer, then that's proof that it doesn't work (just as someone getting a sniffle after having the influenza vaccine is proof that that vaccine is ineffective).

Also, I know a guy who put out mousetraps all over his basement, and still got termites; So mousetraps are obviously a scam to make money for big pest control.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do not forget Gardasil. That one is hated the most.

Well, if someone who has had it gets pancreatic cancer, then that's proof that it doesn't work (just as someone getting a sniffle after having the influenza vaccine is proof that that vaccine is ineffective).

Also, I know a guy who put out mousetraps all over his basement, and still got termites; So mousetraps are obviously a scam to make money for big pest control.

Damn mousetrap lobby!

 

[whollygoats]

*facepalm*

 

[whollygoats]

So those that cannot take vaccines should STFU? Go fuck yourself.

Cannot take vaccines? The vanishingly small number who cannot be vaccinated are the flip side of the vanishingly small numbers who are permanently harmed by vaccine administration under the current paradigm. Tough luck, eh?

The number who can not be vaccinated is far larger than you think. Anyone immunocompromised. Anyone who is allergic to the growth medium of the vaccine.

And how is that known without compromising the health of the patient? So far as I know, most patients are vaccinated without any prior testing to determine whether such conditions exist prior to inoculation. My understanding of the settlement of the Hannah Poling case via the Vaccine Court is that her 'autism-like' symptomology was the result of the vaccine administration and a pre-existing genetic condition of the child. That condition was not known prior to vaccination, nor was it realized that such a condition would be the result. The condition she has, according to her scientist father, is estimated to be present in approximately five per cent of the general populace. So, is that condition now routinely tested for before administering vaccines? No.

 

[whollygoats]

Just some of the realizations arising from the Jackson & Jackson studies out of Seattle Cooperative Health Research regarding the claims of influenza vaccine producers.