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Studies on vaccines

The number who can not be vaccinated is far larger than you think. Anyone immunocompromised. Anyone who is allergic to the growth medium of the vaccine.

And how is that known without compromising the health of the patient? So far as I know, most patients are vaccinated without any prior testing to determine whether such conditions exist prior to inoculation.
Most contraindications for influenza vaccine are due to allergy to eggs. Such allergies are usually well known to parents early in their child's life, as eggs are ubiquitous in the modern diet. Before administering a flu vaccination, patients are explicitly asked about egg allergy. This is not rocket science.
My understanding of the settlement of the Hannah Poling case via the Vaccine Court is that her 'autism-like' symptomology
Autism-like symptoms are not an indication of autism in her case - her actual condition is rare, but has been reliably diagnosed as Mitochondrial Enzyme Deficit.
was the result of the vaccine administration and a pre-existing genetic condition of the child.
Your understanding is wrong. But that's not surprising.
That condition was not known prior to vaccination, nor was it realized that such a condition would be the result. The condition she has, according to her scientist father, is estimated to be present in approximately five per cent of the general populace.
No, it isn't. About 1 in 4,000 children in the United States will develop mitochondrial disease by the age of 10 years - and her particular enzyme deficit is a small subset of that group. Being a scientist is not, unfortunately, any guarantee against being a liar.
So, is that condition now routinely tested for before administering vaccines? No.
And nor should it be.

Her father has very effectively played the system to obtain financial benefit for his family; This is not evidence that he is telling the truth, nor that his allegations are fact-based.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hannah_Poling

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0802904#t=article

People who make money from the dissemination of dangerous nonsense are scum. It's a great shame that Jon Poling had the misfortune to have a daughter with a serious genetic defect. My sympathy for him evaporated when he chose to seek financial advantage by lying about that defect, in such a way as to harm the rest of the society in which he lives, but to benefit himself financially.

Unfortunately the US legal system reflects public opinion, and in doing so is deliberately scientifically ignorant.
 
Unfortunately the US legal system reflects public opinion, and in doing so is deliberately scientifically ignorant.

Agreed. And it is manipulated and maintained by one of the most powerful and richest lobbies in the nation: the pharmaceutical industry.

If you wish to cast aspersions upon the motivations of actors in the dance of the Vaccine Courts, then you need to take in to consideration the industry which has effectively insulated itself from any wrongdoing....whatsoever. They have managed to get the US government to foot their bill to make the US public a guinea pig in its ongoing testing. NO FUCKING LIABILITY FOR DRUG MANUFACTURERS, NOR FOR VACCINE ADMINISTRATORS.

That Dr. Polling and his family got anything at all is fucking amazing. What rankles me is that he was pulled out of a larger group of litigants and his settling effectively abandoned his co-petitioners.

After the Polings' press conference, Julie Gerberding, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, responded to their claims that vaccines had caused their daughter's autism. “Let me be very clear that the government has made absolutely no statement . . . indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism,” she said.5 Gerberding's biggest challenge was defining the term “autism.” Because autism is a clinical diagnosis, children are labeled as autistic on the basis of a collection of clinical features. Hannah Poling clearly had difficulties with language, speech, and communication. But those features of her condition considered autistic were part of a global encephalopathy caused by a mitochondrial enzyme deficit. Rett's syndrome, tuberous sclerosis, fragile X syndrome, and Down's syndrome in children can also have autistic features. Indeed, features reminiscent of autism are evident in all children with profound impairments in cognition; but these similarities are superficial, and their causal mechanisms and genetic influences are different from those of classic autism.

When I was first directed to this wretched controversy, I read about the infamous research and found it unbelievable that anybody gave it any credence whatsoever. It was a classic case of too small of a sample. I think the whole 'autism' controversy is a red herring; the issue is 'harms'. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is not autism, but demonstrated effectiveness and safety of the vaccines. Or, any pharmaceutical being offered as a remedy to the American public.
 
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I ran into this article a while ago on National Geographic and thought it was pretty good.

Yes...The history of vaccination in the US is really quite curious.

I recommend the following three books for those who have an interest in the public health reaction to vaccines over the history of their being offered in the US:
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41uifS4CLCL._SX341_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


They are all historians of medicine and/or science.
 
And, I daresay Ms. Gerberding got her just rewards.

In late 2009, Gerberding became president of Merck's vaccines division.
 
It's always sad to see an apparently smart person succumb to conspiracist claptrap.

Yeah, I know.

I know conspiracy when I see it. I saw it daily for years on end.

You can deny like the Catholic church has done forever. The system is corrupted. There are multiple reputable sources throughout the world which are pointing it out.

Yet, you choose to ignore those reputable sources.

So...Do I give more credence to the former editors of two of the world's leading medical journals, the lead epidemiologist for the world's leading 'Evidence-Based Medicine' research organization, and a professional medical ethicist over the bald assertions of some anonymous blowhard on an obscure 'rationalist' message board?

Hmmm...I'm going to have to say 'yes'. Yes, I do.

I spent thirty years in the heart of the beast and all I got for it was iatrogenic disease.

Don't hang out with physicians, it's hard on your health.

Unless, of course, you're a pharm rep. Then, it's your bread and butter.
 
I ran into this article a while ago on National Geographic and thought it was pretty good.

Yes...The history of vaccination in the US is really quite curious.

I recommend the following three books for those who have an interest in the public health reaction to vaccines over the history of their being offered in the US:
51BmZAFG5qL._AC_UL320_SR214,320_.jpg
514ZLeLhWYL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
41uifS4CLCL._SX341_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


They are all historians of medicine and/or science.
Uh oh. Here we go again with authority fallacies.

LOOK!!! Over there! That doctor thinks vaccines are evil.

What the 104 other doctors over there that think otherwise?

He's a really good doctor!
 
Now you are merely being an asshat.

Authority fallacies? Recommending a few books by medical historians on the arc of history of vaccines in the US? Are you drunk? Or, have you gone off your meds?

A doctor thinks vaccines are evil? Have I cited such a physician? No. I've cited at least four prestigious research physicians and they each tended to cite the evil as being something which was manipulating the entire edifice of medical research. As for the other 104 doctors, what are their curricula vitae as regards the situation being outliined by those I've selected? Are they on the take from their pharm reps? Wait....I'll bet they are all KOLs! Just keeping those kickbacks rolling in....Like Mr. Offit, the reprehensible author of that NEJM article; talk about 'conflict of interest'.

And, yes, I'd say that each of the seven doctors I've suggested that you read, most of them are eminent in their field in medicine. Are you? Have you even read any of the links I provided?

It seems I've hit a nerve. Why would that be?

Is it because there are a LOT of sacred cow worshippers here? What is the proper sacrifice at the altar of corrupt medicine? Snake-oil?
 
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Now you are merely being an asshat.

Authority fallacies? Recommending a few books by medical historians on the arc of history of vaccines in the US? Are you drunk? Or, have you gone off your meds?

A doctor thinks vaccines are evil? Have I cited such a physician? No. I've cited at least four prestigious research physicians and they each tended to cite the evil as being something which was manipulating the entire edifice of medical research. As for the other 104 doctors, what are their curricula vitae as regards the situation being outliined by those I've selected? Are they on the take from their pharm reps? Wait....I'll bet they are all KOLs! Just keeping those kickbacks rolling in....Like Mr. Offit, the reprehensible author of that NEJM article; talk about 'conflict of interest'.

And, yes, I'd say that each of the seven doctors I've suggested that you read, most of them are eminent in their field in medicine. Are you? Have you even read any of the links I provided?

It seems I've hit a nerve. Why would that be?

Is it because there are a LOT of sacred cow worshippers here? What is the proper sacrifice at the altar of corrupt medicine? Snake-oil?

So, let’s start with the first of these four...

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2013/01/25/cochranes-tom-jefferson-on-gary-null-show/

And for slightly more detail on precisely how credible he is:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/one-flu-into-the-cuckoos-nest/

Hmm, slightly less prestigious than expected.

Now, who are the other three and precisely what are they saying?
 
Just some of the realizations arising from the Jackson & Jackson studies out of Seattle Cooperative Health Research regarding the claims of influenza vaccine producers.


And, reading it, first they buy the gerrymandering and discredited Jefferson paper and secondly their position isn’t that vaccines are bad but that older people need a different flu vaccine, a live attenuated one rather than a dead one. In short, and as usual, the paper doesn’t remotely support your position. This is an all too familiar conclusion. Perhaps rather than just posting papers and implying they support you, you should explain precisely how they support your position.
 
Do not forget Gardasil. That one is hated the most.

Well, if someone who has had it gets pancreatic cancer, then that's proof that it doesn't work (just as someone getting a sniffle after having the influenza vaccine is proof that that vaccine is ineffective).

Also, I know a guy who put out mousetraps all over his basement, and still got termites; So mousetraps are obviously a scam to make money for big pest control.
:lol:
 
Now you are merely being an asshat.
I prefer the term bun bonnet.

Authority fallacies?
Yes.
Recommending a few books...
Jimmy Higgins will now demonstrate the great medical findings first released in a book...

...

...by medical historians on the arc of history of vaccines in the US? Are you drunk? Or, have you gone off your meds?
Yeah, if you need to resort to insults this quickly, you've got nothing. You cited a few doctors that you say support your opinion. Yet there are a lot more doctors... and a lot of published research that say otherwise.

A doctor thinks vaccines are evil? Have I cited such a physician? No. I've cited at least four prestigious research physicians...
Via authority fallacy...
...and they each tended to cite the evil as being something which was manipulating the entire edifice of medical research.
That's nice.
As for the other 104 doctors, what are their curricula vitae as regards the situation being outliined by those I've selected? Are they on the take from their pharm reps? Wait....I'll bet they are all KOLs! Just keeping those kickbacks rolling in....Like Mr. Offit, the reprehensible author of that NEJM article; talk about 'conflict of interest'.
Can I interest you in the people that signed the 9/11 inside job paper?

And, yes, I'd say that each of the seven doctors I've suggested that you read, most of them are eminent in their field in medicine. Are you? Have you even read any of the links I provided?
I'm not wasting my time reading stuff that you neither understand or that has been debunked.

It seems I've hit a nerve. Why would that be?

Is it because there are a LOT of sacred cow worshippers here? What is the proper sacrifice at the altar of corrupt medicine? Snake-oil?
Moo.
 
Yeah...I thought so. All I'm seeing is more empty bloviating by some anonymous shithead on an obscure newsgroup.

I see no reason why I should give a shit about what you have to write. You already have plenty....you're full of it.
 
So, these seven authorities.

Can you list them in a convenient to debunk way please. It's enough of a job debunking them without working out who they are as well.

Working through them slowly:

Next: Dr Mark A Largent. So, he's a doctor of history and so will struggle to be eminent in medicine:

Actually, one of the many reviewers points out that his key argument is that vaccination was just a proxy debate for state compulsion in healthcare versus individual choice. Still, reading a few more detailed reviews it looks like an interesting and balanced book that is a very long way from arguing against vaccinations, more arguing for depoliticising them. He's rather keen on them it turns out, but feels that parents need to be better informed rather than coerced. His assumption is that well informed parents will vaccinate anyway as the case for vaccination is usually pretty powerful.

So not really doing the job expected of it, still, sounds pretty cool.
 
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The number who can not be vaccinated is far larger than you think. Anyone immunocompromised. Anyone who is allergic to the growth medium of the vaccine.

And how is that known without compromising the health of the patient? So far as I know, most patients are vaccinated without any prior testing to determine whether such conditions exist prior to inoculation. My understanding of the settlement of the Hannah Poling case via the Vaccine Court is that her 'autism-like' symptomology was the result of the vaccine administration and a pre-existing genetic condition of the child. That condition was not known prior to vaccination, nor was it realized that such a condition would be the result. The condition she has, according to her scientist father, is estimated to be present in approximately five per cent of the general populace. So, is that condition now routinely tested for before administering vaccines? No.

Those are generally issues that would be known by the time vaccines would be administered.
 
Shannon Brownlee said:
But while vaccines for, say, whooping cough and polio clearly and dramatically reduced death rates from those diseases, the impact of flu vaccine has been harder to determine. Flu comes and goes with the seasons, and often it does not kill people directly, but rather contributes to death by making the body more susceptible to secondary infections like pneumonia or bronchitis. For this reason, researchers studying the impact of flu vaccination typically look at deaths from all causes during flu season, and compare the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

Such comparisons have shown a dramatic difference in mortality between these two groups: study after study has found that people who get a flu shot in the fall are about half as likely to die that winter—from any cause—as people who do not. Get your flu shot each year, the literature suggests, and you will dramatically reduce your chance of dying during flu season.

Yet in the view of several vaccine skeptics, this claim is suspicious on its face. Influenza causes only a small minority of all deaths in the U.S., even among senior citizens, and even after adding in the deaths to which flu might have contributed indirectly. When researchers from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases included all deaths from illnesses that flu aggravates, like lung disease or chronic heart failure, they found that flu accounts for, at most, 10 percent of winter deaths among the elderly. So how could flu vaccine possibly reduce total deaths by half? Tom Jefferson, a physician based in Rome and the head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence, says: “For a vaccine to reduce mortality by 50 percent and up to 90 percent in some studies means it has to prevent deaths not just from influenza, but also from falls, fires, heart disease, strokes, and car accidents. That’s not a vaccine, that’s a miracle.”

The estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction is based on “cohort studies,” which compare death rates in large groups, or cohorts, of people who choose to be vaccinated, against death rates in groups who don’t. But people who choose to be vaccinated may differ in many important respects from people who go unvaccinated—and those differences can influence the chance of death during flu season. Education, lifestyle, income, and many other “confounding” factors can come into play, and as a result, cohort studies are notoriously prone to bias. When researchers crunch the numbers, they typically try to factor out variables that could bias the results, but, as Jefferson remarks, “you can adjust for the confounders you know about, not for the ones you don’t,” and researchers can’t always anticipate what factors are likely to be important to whether a patient dies from flu. There is always the chance that they might miss some critical confounder that renders their results entirely wrong.

When Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center, in Seattle, began wondering aloud to colleagues if maybe something was amiss with the estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction for people who get flu vaccine, the response she got sounded more like doctrine than science. “People told me, ‘No good can come of [asking] this,’” she says. “‘Potentially a lot of bad could happen’ for me professionally by raising any criticism that might dissuade people from getting vaccinated, because of course, ‘We know that vaccine works.’ This was the prevailing wisdom.”

Nonetheless, in 2004, Jackson and three colleagues set out to determine whether the mortality difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated might be caused by a phenomenon known as the “healthy user effect.” They hypothesized that on average, people who get vaccinated are simply healthier than those who don’t, and thus less liable to die over the short term. People who don’t get vaccinated may be bedridden or otherwise too sick to go get a shot. They may also be more likely to succumb to flu or any other illness, because they are generally older and sicker. To test their thesis, Jackson and her colleagues combed through eight years of medical data on more than 72,000 people 65 and older. They looked at who got flu shots and who didn’t. Then they examined which group’s members were more likely to die of any cause when it was not flu season.

Jackson’s findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the “frail elderly” didn’t or couldn’t. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all. Jackson’s papers “are beautiful,” says Lone Simonsen, who is a professor of global health at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., and an internationally recognized expert in influenza and vaccine epidemiology. “They are classic studies in epidemiology, they are so carefully done.”

They basically showed that the 'literature' which supported vaccinating elders was making wild hyperbolic claims about its effectiveness, when it was, in all likelihood, basically ineffective.

The claims of efficacy, from the manufacturers, is bullshit supported by exceedingly bad science. Indeed, it is quackery.
 
What the 104 other doctors over there that think otherwise?

He's a really good doctor!

Just like Ignaz Semmelweiz!

The history of medicine at adopting real evidence is littered with quacks like your "104 other doctors".
 
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